Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Maybe Radu will cap the number of rare stones that some one can keep in their sto. Prob the only way to force hoarders to sell them. Would only work if you gave players a set time limit to remove the excess from their storage, some players might have paid $ from the shop for some items such as bindings for their own personal use (they have never entered the market so dont affect the price) so you cannot just remove them. Nah, just make it so if a person has over the set limit, they (obviously) wont be able to add more until they remove enough from their storage to be under the limit. That would be detrimental to the game. Some players do not follow harv-sell-spend (pk) cycles, they do long term projects where certain amounts of goods are required to complete them. Same goes for guild project that serve purpose of gathering enough funds for a guild map or a bot or whatever. There is no reason to force people to split such projects up into a bunch of smaller ones. Besides, punishing people for their ability to accumulate wealth and setting limits of goods that people are allowed to posess is fooking communism As it has been said a number of times - the more restrictions, the more difficulties to acquire certain items needed, the more hoarding and attempts to find a way around it. Going back to the topic - it is perfectly fair what Holar says, he has a full right to set any price for his wares. It is entirely up to him how much he pays for the ings as well. No one should complain about selling / buying price offers people make - you can either accept or ignore it, or try to negotiate. No need to ridicule. Being in manuer's shoes however, instead of doing "a strike" I would simply stop making these items that are not profitable. As simple as that. I would make them from ingreds if people asked me (I know the top manuers do that, so nothing new here). The entire burden of getting ingredients would shift to the customer side and I would no longer bother neither with getting ings nor with sales below profit. For income, I would resort to making those few manu items that are profitable. Certainly, this will slow down levelling since the exp would not be that big as when making great swords and high level armor, but nice and certain income will allow them surely to "experiment" with top exp stuff as well. As a side effect the prices of basic manu ings could drop (except steel bars perhaps) naturally, but only slightly. As soon as they drop to the certain level there will be another players who decide to power level manu by making high level stuff at a small loss initially, but getting bigger as they progress ... a natural slump/boom in the market cycle I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gilrain Report post Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) I dont expect anyone to sell FEs/ores/whatever cheaper, just because they MAY HAVE LUCK to get something rare from it. Would be funny to even ask for it. Seems its not funny only in manufacturers case, cause they are ebul rich, and rip off other ppl. one more thing: noone takes fails/saving stones into consideration? or i just didnt notice. and thats exactly where the argumentation is wrong. NOONE demands lower prices from manuers only because they can make a rare item. It is just happening on a market. I as a customer of goods that i cant make myself i just look for the best price available and buy it. Now, if some clever manufacturers calculate sharply and take into account the rare items or even take into account harvesting their own ingredients and dont charge them at market price, they might sell cheaper than you are. So what? I dont see the need to forbid people to sell cheap. And: i am not complaining at all! Some manuers are.... regards Edited March 3, 2009 by Gilrain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pillgrim Report post Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Noone forbids to sell cheaper, even if someone wants to do this, its simply impossible. Just more ppl stated they agree/join Holar and like Machevort said: "Dunnow about other ppl, but for me its fairly simple: I aint gonna pay ingredient price for any armor or weapon that has a chance on a special worth 300K-1M gc." - he's not the only one thinking like that. PS. im not even asking for solution, market is market. I just stated im joining Holar with not selling manu items at so low prices. Edited March 3, 2009 by Pillgrim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dugur Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I'm on counterstrike, any rare I find goes to my favourite manuer ( <3 ) cheap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raz Report post Posted March 3, 2009 A summoners point of view... I levelled summoning on items that could be sold for a profit / break even. When suppliers increased the costs over the cost of production, I simply switched to other products or made ingredients myself. I could have levelled much faster if I had not bothered about cost - the high level stones are much more exp - but no market and a huge loss if sold to NPC. Mass production of low level items - where you need to make 20 to get the same exp as a single click on a bigger stone, is not fun, but it is sustainable. I only ever made stuff at a loss as a deliberate decision, and saved it for special days (scholars / recycling). Ths was done for the sheer hell of it - with no chance of a 'rare' item. Admittedly there are far fewer people involved in summoning - so the actions of one person has more effect. Much as I applaud the stand taken by Holar et al - I can only agree with the others - It is the past excesses that have caused the market to be flooded; and their expectations of being able to make high level armour at will - that has driven up the cost of rare ingredients. Likewise I have always been willing to mix low level stuff for ings at my risk, high level stuff at their risk, or for a small fee. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groomsh Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Certainly, this will slow down levelling since the exp would not be that big as when making great swords and high level armor, but nice and certain income will allow them surely to "experiment" with top exp stuff as well. As a side effect the prices of basic manu ings could drop (except steel bars perhaps) naturally, but only slightly. As soon as they drop to the certain level there will be another players who decide to power level manu by making high level stuff at a small loss initially, but getting bigger as they progress ... a natural slump/boom in the market cycle I guess. I really don't think that anybody would even consider doing great swords for leveling manu ... As Holar already stated, it's much easier to make leather helms at school. great swords = 800-1800 base manu exp and you need 2 wolf bars and 1 binding stone per one sword, that means you can make at most 100 swords in one session (it's insane to get 200 wolf bars and 100 binding stones) 100 great swords = 80-180k manu exp what is really nothing. Now compared to leather helms in school: leather helms = 90 base manu exp and you need 3 leather and 4 thread, to even the exp you get from a great sword, you need to make 9-20 leather helms meaning that you need 27-60 leather and 36-80 thread... Now please tell me, WHY would i make 100 great swords to level manu, if i can make few more leather helms which ingreds are A LOT CHEAPER and EASIER to get then ingreds for great swords ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FatboyJaxx Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Sorry, but this is never going to work as long as there are rare versions of the items. If the normal versions of items that have rares can be profitable it's only a matter of time until someone gets greedy and mass produces a particular item saturating the market. They then realise they can't sell them all but they need gc back to buy more ingredients so they lower their prices. It's inevitable... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) That would be detrimental to the game. I disagree. Some players do not follow harv-sell-spend (pk) cycles, they do long term projects where certain amounts of goods are required to complete them. Same goes for guild project that serve purpose of gathering enough funds for a guild map or a bot or whatever. There is no reason to force people to split such projects up into a bunch of smaller ones. There is a reason; decrease hoarding. Besides, punishing people for their ability to accumulate wealth and setting limits of goods that people are allowed to posess is fooking communism Sensible for a "classless" game, no? As it has been said a number of times - the more restrictions, the more difficulties to acquire certain items needed I doubt limiting rare stones and enriched essences to a max of 15-20 of each in storage would make them 'more difficult to acquire' on the open market. ...but this all hardly affects me, and isn't my forte, so i wont keep persistently pushing my points, like those annoying mixers who do on high-level combat related threads. bb Edited March 3, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zamirah Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Being in manuer's shoes however, instead of doing "a strike" I would simply stop making these items that are not profitable. As simple as that. I would make them from ingreds if people asked me (I know the top manuers do that, so nothing new here). The entire burden of getting ingredients would shift to the customer side and I would no longer bother neither with getting ings nor with sales below profit. For income, I would resort to making those few manu items that are profitable. Certainly, this will slow down levelling since the exp would not be that big as when making great swords and high level armor, but nice and certain income will allow them surely to "experiment" with top exp stuff as well. If people could be used to ask on market - Who can make me a XXXXXX, I have ings and will pay, and manuers and other mixers would tell what they can/want to make, would it help a lot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Now please tell me, WHY would i make 100 great swords to level manu, if i can make few more leather helms which ingreds are A LOT CHEAPER and EASIER to get then ingreds for great swords ? For two simple reasons: a/ to have a chance to make rare sword b/ to avoid making even more leather helms This is quite pointless anyway - if you want both exp and income, make only s2e's. If you want to have some fun and chance to make a rare, make high end stuff (fun costs hehe). If go just need exp - make helms in school. It is all available and you are free to choose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 That would be detrimental to the game. I disagree. Some players do not follow harv-sell-spend (pk) cycles, they do long term projects where certain amounts of goods are required to complete them. Same goes for guild project that serve purpose of gathering enough funds for a guild map or a bot or whatever. There is no reason to force people to split such projects up into a bunch of smaller ones. There is a reason; decrease hoarding. Besides, punishing people for their ability to accumulate wealth and setting limits of goods that people are allowed to posess is fooking communism Sensible for a "classless" game, no? As it has been said a number of times - the more restrictions, the more difficulties to acquire certain items needed I doubt limiting rare stones and enriched essences to a max of 15-20 of each in storage would make them 'more difficult to acquire' on the open market. ...but this all hardly affects me, and isn't my forte, so i wont keep persistently pushing my points, like those annoying mixers who do on high-level combat related threads. bb I'm afraid you have no idea on large projects. You would probably hate if I suggested to limit your ability to hoard armor to one full and a half of a spare set (roughly equivalent of 15 bindings and 6 rare essies to make that) - let's play fair my dear, we'll see how you like that. And communism, in any form, has no justification and was proven to be phail If people could be used to ask on market - Who can make me a XXXXXX, I have ings and will pay, and manuers and other mixers would tell what they can/want to make, would it help a lot. That's what I was doing for many months. Instead of buying on the market I was getting ings and asking top manuers to make stuff for me. Free exp for them, perfect cost control for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I'm afraid you have no idea on large projects. Lest you forget i spent much of my early game time in guild RICH, and participated in the organisation of large projects... i'm just not afraid of balance improvement changes, even ones that may hurt a little. You would probably hate if I suggested to limit your ability to hoard armor to one full and a half of a spare set (roughly equivalent of 15 bindings and 6 rare essies to make that) - let's play fair my dear, we'll see how you like that. I have no more than 1.5 of any seperate set right now. I have 1 Steel set, 1 IDA set, 1 Ti set + damaged Ti greaves & cuisses. I'd like it just fine. Any suggestion you could make to limit things for a fighter i'll probably have no porblem with, as the same limits will apply to everyone. ...if this is your debate approach with me; "what if we did this and that to fighters", i highly suggest you find a new one cause it wont work, i'll just say "sure np". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I have 1 Steel set, 1 IDA set, 1 Ti set + damaged Ti greaves & cuisses. Calculate what is equivalent of that in rare stones and enriched essences pls. Don't forget to add great swords and other stuff that requires that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I have 1 Steel set, 1 IDA set, 1 Ti set + damaged Ti greaves & cuisses. Calculate what is equivalent of that in rare stones and enriched essences pls. Don't forget to add great swords and other stuff that requires that. Well, i can, and even if you suggested something like only 3 great swords and only 1 torso, greaves and cuisses piece, i'd be fine with it... in fact it would be really interesting; those who want good PK/invasion armour would need to risk the breakages using that armour in their training as well, and vice-versa that those who uses cheaper stuff so training's not as costly would have a PK/invasion downfall... it'd make strategy with attrib build, considering armour choice, worth a lot. (ofc 2 friends would just swap armor sets so they could do both.) ...that said, i don't think armour hoarding, if that even happens, has anything even remotely close to the size of effect n the market as rare ingreds hoarding does. You're comparing apples to oranges... but as i said about, if you want to try and call an apple an orange, i'll still say sure np. If the only way it could be implemented is if items that contained these rare ingreds in storage counted towards the rare ingred cap, i'd be fine with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khalai Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion) Well, i said "15-20" of each... 20 EFE, 20 binders, etc. is too smaller amount? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizzy Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion) Well, i said "15-20" of each... 20 EFE, 20 binders, etc. is too smaller amount? So people just store all the rare stones/essences in hyperbag? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion) Well, i said "15-20" of each... 20 EFE, 20 binders, etc. is too smaller amount? So people just store all the rare stones/essences in hyperbag? I guess so, if they wanna risk it. EDIT: damn typos Edited March 3, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dilly Report post Posted March 3, 2009 I think, that Cruella rather ment that for you to realize, what producer usually possess in their storage to cover "what if" orders. Not to argue about "ubber rich fighters vs. poor manuers" (notice that quotes please, it's an irony, not my opinion) Well, i said "15-20" of each... 20 EFE, 20 binders, etc. is too smaller amount? So people just store all the rare stones/essences in hyperbag? I guess so, if they wanna risk it. EDIT: damn typos @ 3 Buying stacks and stack of skeleton keys. Pm me \o/ Now for real: I don't see why it has to be limited. If apparently the rare items aren't all that rare, why not just stop calling them rare and get it over with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 i thought the whole complaint here is that rare ingred costs go up but end product prices stay the same? as Conavar said, better to attack the ingred cost problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 When gas prices go up, people switch to smaller cars or restrict gas tank size in their monster trucks ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) 1. i have no idea i dont do anything when petrol prices change, i gotta do what i gotta do so i just put in mi fuel. 2. it's an irrelevant comparison. All these comparisons to RL are pointless lol. Even if something is a commy thing to do, it's a game, it's a whole different plain of existence, and is completely incomparable to RL. ...maybe we should have it so when u die, your char is simply gone and you start a new one and you cant play any more ... now that'd be RL like ^^ Edited March 3, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ringil_Oddsocks Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Having read the many comments from distinguished player in the current hot topic of 'Manufacturing strike!', I have decided that I will set my bot to buy and sell items at prices that are considered fair. My bot only buys and sells a few of the many items that are available in this wonderful game and I reserve the right to limit the items he trades with, but I would like help from the community in determining fair buying and selling prices. NB I don't want people to tell me that this is a stupid idea or that it is FAIL!!!!11!!! All I want is your opinion of fair buying and selling price for the items that my bot has listed in wanted/inv. I realise that these will not be the exact same as prices that would be acceptable in a player to player trade but I hope that they will be sufficiently close. Here is what my bot has listed in either inv or wanted: - Air Essence Binding Stone Death Essence Dung Empty Vial Enriched Magic Essence Fire Essence Gold Bar Potion of Body Restoration Potion of Great Healing Ring of Desert Pines Ring of Disengagement Ring of Isla Prima Ring of Naralik Ring of Portland Ring of Valley of the Dwarves Ring of White Stone Tin Bar If you feel it necessary you can supply your reasoning for the prices you quote, but please don't flame others if you do not agree with their comments. If the community can agree on a reasonable set of prices I am willing to set my bot to use those prices for a minimum of 1 month to see how it goes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LochnessLobster Report post Posted March 3, 2009 If the price of manu items goes up then so will the price of their ingredients. Ingredients will always be worth more than the finished item (probably because of the chance to make specials in my oppinion). I stopped selling all manu items around 2 years ago so i guess you can count me in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cruella Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Korrode, logic is never irrelevant, no matter what words are used to describe it Suggestions should have at least a glimpse of logic, and also if there are two solutions to the problem, usually the simplest is the best. IMO limiting storage suggestion lacks logic and encourages people to use loopholes (storing at friends, alts, bots, hyperbags) It will not make rares cheaper nor easier available. All it will do it will slightly INCREASE rares price long term. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites