Question about the economy

[Ateh]

Still dont understand how a Ti SHield = 25k

2 Hydro Bars : 20k

1 Binding Stone : 7-8k

but we do understand

Sorry still dont understand, you will have to enlighten me

so you might need to work harder

at what ? selling st00f for less than the ings cost ? no thanks

if you could break down a tit shield in its ingredients anytime, you would be right, but thats not possible now.

hth

so how do you begin to make a Ti SHield then ? they dont just get delivered by Santa and his Merry Elves ....... someone has to sit there and mix two hydro bars and a binding stone .......

 

but honestly im really done with this thread its obvious nobody gives a fk and someone is still gonna make your armors for you no matter what the price of ings is ....... likewise im done with market channel it just really pisses me off lol

 

btw murdock just wondering if you can make Ti Shields yourself can you ? cool if you can, its just I have no idea who you are and never seen you in game I dont think ?

[popeye]

The economy.................

 

 

 

 

I still sell he's to friends in need for 6 gc. I think the ingame prices are climbing a little more then folks would like because others are greedy.

*I said it, you read it, don't say it's not true* "I do believe in fairies." I am an elf, afterall.

 

Edit: added, "I do believe in fairies".

Edited November 16, 2008 by popeye

[nathanstenzel]

It seems the hydro bar price is now 10.5K. That means that the titanium shield costs 1K gc more than was quoted in here earlier.

[Gilrain]

btw murdock just wondering if you can make Ti Shields yourself can you ? cool if you can, its just I have no idea who you are and never seen you in game I dont think ?

my char is named Gilrain (i like to not mix persons with chars)

and i recently bought a tit shield for 26250 gc, so i'm not the worst guy

 

but seriously, if you buy a new car for say 20k real $, then after 1 day the reselling value magically drops by maybe 5k $ even if you drove only some meters. Ever wondered about that ?

Why should a tit shield always be as much as the ingredients were when someone made it ? Thats just a wrong assumption of yours.

Think of it this way: if there is no buyer or no seller, then a price is not existing at all.

 

In the current situation that you complain about in fact the sellers produce the low end price of 25k. So the manuer burns the money in the moment he manufactures a shield, yes.

This will probably change, when the oversupply is gone, so blame the manuers.

For me i can say: if there is no cheaper shield on bots or market chan, i finally would ask a high level manuer to produce one for me and pay a higher price. (i already did so sometimes with other stuff).

 

regards

[nathanstenzel]

but seriously, if you buy a new car for say 20k real $, then after 1 day the reselling value magically drops by maybe 5k $ even if you drove only some meters. Ever wondered about that ?

Why should a tit shield always be as much as the ingredients were when someone made it ? Thats just a wrong assumption of yours.

Think of it this way: if there is no buyer or no seller, then a price is not existing at all.

Your statement would only make sense if EL had wear and tear else than degrades. In fact, the way you put it, a car would drop value after leaving the factory. That makes no sense. If you make an item, its value should not be magically lower. Not for a car manufacturer and not for us.

[warangel]

Wow thought the thread died... lol

For what I missed.....

-I am inbetween cycs and ogres. yes things break more when fighting cyclops but no not as much as they should.(and I am low level for cyclops so I should be complaining more than you)

 

-ateh, I agree with you on so many levels its like your arguing for me half the time, lol.

 

-Increased break rate would not only stabilize the economy to a point where manufacturing is profitable, It would make the excess supply be used up more quickly allowing changes in the economy to occur faster.

 

-Entropy controls the game not the economy. <i>We can control</i> the economy. Sure he can increase the rates but that won't change what people are willing to pay if there is still all this excess supply, or bots that buy for more and sell for cheaper. Ent said himself there are somethings he can't control because people will just whine all day. Even if it is better for the game.

 

-Its not where the buyer and sellers meet because bots create price floors and ceilings.

[Aphistolas]

"Better for the game"

 

Better for whom, exactly? The manuers? Yay, let's satisfy a minority by seriously upheaving a majority!

 

Frankly, if you want better manufacturing prices, quit manufacturing (not going to happen) for awhile to make the price go up.

[popeye]

Better for whom, exactly? The manuers? Yay, let's satisfy a minority by seriously upheaving a majority!

Yeah, we all know PK makes up the majority of the game, right? Guess that's why there are so many, "help pk, it's dying" threads/requests. I make stuff and give it to Annatira to help newbs. Does this hurt the economy? It might. Does it help newbs stay interested in the game? Yes.

[warangel]

Why would making leveling fighting more challenging, up heave anyone? Its the same game... just requires a little more work towards the levels. What I find interesting... There are such things as fighters who do not level anything other than a/d but there is no such manufacturer that I am aware of that does not level alchemy. And certainly does not ignore harvesting... Why do fighters always feel they are privileged to the liberty of ignoring all other skills? (rhetorical question. Pray to god/allah I dont get like 50k responses)

[ago]

A higher break rate also hits the alcher, manuer or potter who happens to go after some ogres from time to time.

 

And even if the break rate is a little higher there will be the same persons around undercutting the prices again to make a "good" profit. So you'll still sell your stuff for less than the ingreds.

 

But maybe the solution of buying every ingredient at storage does not work for all goods. So if someone is making large batches of Steel bars at the iron why shouldn't he sell the bars (or the armor made from it) for less than someone who buys the iron ore from storage? In the real economy there is heavy competition and if you can't compete with the production cost of your competitor then its up to you to find a way to match up again or switch to something more profitable.

[Shadow_runner]

**Warning long-ish post**

 

IMO the EL economy is broken.

 

Giving more GC to fighters will not fix the market or the economy. Only demand out stripping supply will the market price increase. As it has with EFE's and Binding stones.

 

Gold sinks don't fix the economy, they just drain away GC from players that are interested in developing that skill. Look what happened with tailoring! First off everything was expensive, then over time it became cheaper and cheaper as peoples skills got better.

 

What will fix the economy I hear you ask?

 

Fixing the root of the problem. Which is that all items can be made for very little or no GC cost. Everything can be made for almost 'free'.

 

Most thing can be mined for free. Time input only. Some thing require tools, like pickaxes. So a little cost.

 

A lot of things can be made for free. Time input only. Some require tools, like hammer. So a little cost.

 

Food is free, as you can harvest it. If your willing to make everything with fruit and wait for cool down. You can make a lot of stuff for free.

 

Current market values are based upon a consensus of how much effort everything 'costs' to get. (Mine the basic stuff). Except with the rare demand and supply issues of a few items.

 

What will fix the economy I hear you ask? Again!

 

IMO - If you add costs too produce stuff, then you will reduce short selling.

 

Step one:

 

All storage's charge all players GC for storing items.

 

So to try too affect all level of players equally. A basic example might be:

 

One gold coin per slot per game day charge.

 

(New players would be charged very little, as there wouldn't have any items on storage early on. Advanced players would have an income therefore be able to afford the charges, plus the Admin's can decide to set different charges for different items if they so choose.)

 

Downside?

 

Players might choose no longer too use storage. Thus avoid the charges. (This is true, but if they die. They they might drop some really good stuff, or lose a rosto.)

 

Possible Step two: ( I might kick myself for this and player may be queuing up too do this for me )

 

Some items may have to be made in a relevant place. For example:

 

Blacksmiths: To make all armor and swords.

 

Lab: To make all potions.

 

And so on. With a NPC outside that charges you rent to use that workplace. GC again. With perhaps a storage in each, for those items only. (Materials to make in that workplace and items made.)

 

This would introduce a cost of GC for everything made and therefore would be handed onto the buyer.

 

Possible step three:

 

Fix NPC prices.

[MagpieLee]

**Warning long-ish post**

<snip>

No offence but how long have you played this game for? The economy has been "broken" for some time now - ever since I can remember.

Apart from your possible solution 3 (fix NPC prices - but only a few selected ones), your proposals will bring about a lot of bitching and flaming and stuff...

[ProHibited]

Making potions already costs GC that has to be payed to NPC's. Vails, Wine etc.

 

You say that we can make nearly any item for free, this is not true since time equals money. In the time it costs to make an item you could have gained GC at lilacs/lupines.

Charging gold coins for making an item would not hurt anyone, since the prices for those items will go up by the amount it will cost extra to make. So your solution would just mean a gold sink. Gold sinks as they are now seem much better to me.

 

A different solution may be to implement the platinum coins. Years ago I read that the plan was to add them as a secondary payment option. They would not be worth 1k or whatever amount of gold coins. They would simply be worth one platinum coin. Specific NPC's could sell items only for platinum coins and platinum coins could only be obtained trough selling those items to those NPC's or from high-end monsters as drops. I know the developers have thought about it (long time ago perhaps..), maybe when the economy is really broken they will be implemented along with some other changes.

 

Perhaps the hoarding of items could be stopped by limiting for example the amount of EFE's one can have in his/her storage is 'capped' at 100 maximum. But then again, hoarding can be a strategic way to influence the economy. This has happened in the past by some guild, and is quite an achievement when desired goals are met.

 

 

At the moment I don't experience a broken economy at all...

Items being too expensive or too cheap? Human beings decide what they pay and how much they charge, that is basically how economy works. (How much is in Stock and how high is the Demand?)

 

 

 

Edit: Oh and yes the platinum coins can be exchanged at.. (where??) for a price but the exchange rate is quite bad. So if the 'gold coin' value drops then people could change 'gold coins' for 'platinum coins'. Then when the 'gold coin' increases in value (ex: there is suddenly more gc ingame) it would be the other way around. I think that would work as some kind of 'buffer' for very big fluctuations (as that may be the definition of 'broken economy wtf!!omg')

Edited January 13, 2009 by ProHibited

[MagpieLee]

I love plats <3

 

You say that you read pcs were a soon to be added secondary payment option but ages ago it used to be the primary and some NPCs dealt with them exclusively (I still want this btw). To answer your question they can be exchanged in Taverns but the exchange rate truely does suck

[ProHibited]

Oh I didn't know they were actually ever used ingame was probably in my noob days then

[Shujral]

shadow_runner: how is eliminating ~100-300 gc per player per day going to fix the economy?

[Entropy]

To paraphrase our great leader, George W Bush, "The [EL] economy is strong and going stronger"

[Shadow_runner]

**Warning long-ish post**

<snip>

No offence but how long have you played this game for? The economy has been "broken" for some time now - ever since I can remember.

Apart from your possible solution 3 (fix NPC prices - but only a few selected ones), your proposals will bring about a lot of bitching and flaming and stuff...

 

I have been playing this game for almost two years now. I know the economy has been broken for all that time and the time before I even joined. Quite a few people in this thread, mentioned that they have been many discussions about it.

 

The Admin's have introduced gold sinks to combat the problem. But in my view gold sinks that have been introduced, haven't really worked. (Long term)

 

This was just a beginning on some ideas on how to fix the economy. It isn't the final solution. I thought rather than bitching about it, I try too come up with some well thought out ideas, that might help.

 

I am sure some players will be bitching, moaning and crying should these ideas ever come into being.

 

ProHibited

 

You are correct, when it comes to potions. However this doesn't really extend to any other skill out side of that. Except maybe making mercury.

 

Shujral

 

I am not eliminating that gold. I am simply trying to add basic costs into any production within the game.

 

Think about it. In the game, if you want to make fire essences. The only thing that you 'have' to buy is leather gloves. Even these can be made in due course, so the only thing that you than have to buy is 'leather' to make the gloves. Gold coin wise that is.

 

Everything else in the above example can be made for 'free'. Time input into the game and you produce the goods. Which currently sell at 3 to 3.5 gold coins each. With a chance for making an EFE, which currently sell for around 7,000 gold coins each.

 

Until there is some costs added too production. Then the economy will always been broken, in my view.

 

A real life example is:

 

You pay money for: house, food, bills, etc... So you 'need' to earn enough money for those first, before you can really do anything else. (Unless you like dept.)

 

The basic 3 step plan, is to 'try' too introduce those costs fairly and across the board too everyone.

 

Another example is:

 

I used to sell Refined Vegtal mixtures for 2,500 gold each. Now you can buy Creature food, which uses one of those for around 80 gold each. What happened?

 

Some people understood that they only thing they where paying for where the vials. Plus some other tools. Everything else was 'free', time based work.

[Wizzy]

**Warning long-ish post**

<snip>

No offence but how long have you played this game for? The economy has been "broken" for some time now - ever since I can remember.

Apart from your possible solution 3 (fix NPC prices - but only a few selected ones), your proposals will bring about a lot of bitching and flaming and stuff...

 

I have been playing this game for almost two years now. I know the economy has been broken for all that time and the time before I even joined. Quite a few people in this thread, mentioned that they have been many discussions about it.

 

The Admin's have introduced gold sinks to combat the problem. But in my view gold sinks that have been introduced, haven't really worked. (Long term)

 

This was just a beginning on some ideas on how to fix the economy. It isn't the final solution. I thought rather than bitching about it, I try too come up with some well thought out ideas, that might help.

 

I am sure some players will be bitching, moaning and crying should these ideas ever come into being.

 

ProHibited

 

You are correct, when it comes to potions. However this doesn't really extend to any other skill out side of that. Except maybe making mercury.

 

Shujral

 

I am not eliminating that gold. I am simply trying to add basic costs into any production within the game.

 

Think about it. In the game, if you want to make fire essences. The only thing that you 'have' to buy is leather gloves. Even these can be made in due course, so the only thing that you than have to buy is 'leather' to make the gloves. Gold coin wise that is.

 

Everything else in the above example can be made for 'free'. Time input into the game and you produce the goods. Which currently sell at 3 to 3.5 gold coins each. With a chance for making an EFE, which currently sell for around 7,000 gold coins each.

 

Until there is some costs added too production. Then the economy will always been broken, in my view.

 

A real life example is:

 

You pay money for: house, food, bills, etc... So you 'need' to earn enough money for those first, before you can really do anything else. (Unless you like dept.)

 

The basic 3 step plan, is to 'try' too introduce those costs fairly and across the board too everyone.

 

Another example is:

 

I used to sell Refined Vegtal mixtures for 2,500 gold each. Now you can buy Creature food, which uses one of those for around 80 gold each. What happened?

 

Some people understood that they only thing they where paying for where the vials. Plus some other tools. Everything else was 'free', time based work.

 

Here is where you are wrong in my opinion

 

See, experince is directly connected to gold coins, so much that if you dont care about making xp you can be rich i.e pick lupins for 3 years and sell to npc and use that harvest xp to add to p/c take some neg perks to make you emu and eat the odd fruit or spawned bread to recover hit points

 

If you want to level, say, potion skill from zero to 100 in a month, it may be possible, but it is going to cost plenty of gc's to do this

 

 

I think the economy must be good, as I am almost always broke (though I am streadly leveling all skills)

[Burn]

I used to sell Refined Vegtal mixtures for 2,500 gold each. Now you can buy Creature food, which uses one of those for around 80 gold each. What happened?

 

Check the creature food info again. 1 refveg is used to make 60 creature foods, not 1. 60*80 = 4800gc

[nathanstenzel]

Having a limit of X amount in storage for some items would prevent hoarding. Bots could help get around this, but you have to pay for bots too.

 

Rare ingredient hoarding is one thing that I think does damage the game economy, however it probably is also causing the rarity of some items to go in the direction that Entropy wants them to. I do believe he was wanting all of these fancier armors like red dragon armor and titanium armor and such to be rather rare.

 

It is always a tough thing to do to convince people not to sell things for less than ingredients. One thing that can help with this is....flipping the bird at people. If they say "but I can get it for this price" and you know that is less than the ingredient price, flip them the bird. They may be taking you for a sucker anyways. People can claim this or that when in fact they could be totally full of crap or there were special circumstances like being desperate for cash or they had to wait 3 months to get that price because it is hard to find an idiot that would sell that cheap. And if anyone is wondering, yes, I get very bitter when it comes to this topic. Anyways, if you flip them the bird enough times and other people do the same, they will pay more because they are tired of waiting for a sucker.

[The_Piper]

Rare ingredient hoarding is one thing that I think does damage the game economy, however it probably is also causing the rarity of some items to go in the direction that Entropy wants them to. I do believe he was wanting all of these fancier armors like red dragon armor and titanium armor and such to be rather rare.

 

Hoarding stuff isnt a problem, throwing it on the market is.

 

Stuff in storage doesnt inflict the economy.

 

For example, i still have 100k diamonds in storage, they dont hurt the economy. But if i decide to sell them they might for a little bit.

 

Since money, ingredients, even rare ingredients are free available for everyone, it just depends on the time you spend to make stuff to get rare stuff, the problem is to get rare stuff out of the market, but not out of storages.

 

When people just keep their rare stuff and dont sell it, it doesnt inflict the market.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Piper

[nathanstenzel]

Rare ingredient hoarding is one thing that I think does damage the game economy, however it probably is also causing the rarity of some items to go in the direction that Entropy wants them to. I do believe he was wanting all of these fancier armors like red dragon armor and titanium armor and such to be rather rare.

 

Hoarding stuff isnt a problem, throwing it on the market is.

 

Stuff in storage doesnt inflict the economy.

 

For example, i still have 100k diamonds in storage, they dont hurt the economy. But if i decide to sell them they might for a little bit.

 

Since money, ingredients, even rare ingredients are free available for everyone, it just depends on the time you spend to make stuff to get rare stuff, the problem is to get rare stuff out of the market, but not out of storages.

 

When people just keep their rare stuff and dont sell it, it doesnt inflict the market.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Piper

I was talking about how some prices skyrocket when I mentioned hoarding.

 

The dumping of items into market tends to be things that were collecting dust or were produced or harvested in too great of quantity and I do agree that such dumping can cause prices to drop for a little bit. That would fit as a special circumstance like I mention in my third paragraph where I was talking about flipping the bird.

Edited January 14, 2009 by nathanstenzel

[Zipher]

it just makes the game more real!! crappy economy in alot of places

[Shadow_runner]

Here is where you are wrong in my opinion

 

See, experince is directly connected to gold coins, so much that if you dont care about making xp you can be rich i.e pick lupins for 3 years and sell to npc and use that harvest xp to add to p/c take some neg perks to make you emu and eat the odd fruit or spawned bread to recover hit points

 

If you want to level, say, potion skill from zero to 100 in a month, it may be possible, but it is going to cost plenty of gc's to do this

 

 

I think the economy must be good, as I am almost always broke (though I am streadly leveling all skills)

 

Are well, what can i say? Where you point too where you think I am wrong, I point too say here is why I am right.

 

What is the real reason that your almost always broke? Perhaps you exchange your gold coins to gain experience faster, or perhaps that your not making that much profit out of items and what ever action you take in the game. Most of them will gain you some experience.

 

I let you decide.