Question about the economy

[gilhad123]

[20:10:09] <someone>: any1 have for sell stars medallion? ;p

[20:10:29] <someone>: for 60gc -.-

[20:10:34] [PM to TrinityBot: pc star]

[20:10:34] [PM from TrinityBot: The price for Stars Medallions is 125-200 gc each.]

[20:11:14] gilhad: I have one for 150 gc <-- fast estimate based on Trinity

[20:14:00] gilhad: And it is so cheap only cause i will not go today to glacmor sell it to NPC for 170 gc - i will go tomorrow with big batch ... <-- did better check

 

OK, it think about it again and opened eyes - i do not trust Trinity so much anymore.

 

Still i think it would be nice to have some pricelist based on NPC prices (item, price to sell, NPC buyig, price to buy, NPC selling)

Should be that list easily accessible by majority i think some prices would grow really fast (why sell @60 or @125, if i can @170 guaranteed)

 

Would be nice to have the NPC prices in Wiki too.

 

Red Snapdragons - sell: 0.25 general stores, buy: 3 general stores (0.5gc at GenX order)

Moon Medallion - sell:170 Shantir, buy: --,--

 

would help a lot to have bot (like Trinity-2) who would reply to "/bot pc something" with such line ingame too - to use as fast reference when trading

(and to point ppl to - so these prices would became more known between players - we can talk about economy here, but if we can touch the greed in hearts of players, they are more likely go and sell at least at these prices than just relly on "everybody knows meds are around 125gc")

(and yes, if i did had these info when starting play EL apart of "ask Rraisa" as reference than my prices would be much higher from the start)

[korrode]

Still i think it would be nice to have some pricelist based on NPC prices (item, price to sell, NPC buyig, price to buy, NPC selling)

Should be that list easily accessible by majority i think some prices would grow really fast (why sell @60 or @125, if i can @170 guaranteed)

The ever informative CEL website contains NPC's sell/buy prices for every item.

http://www.el-cel.com/

 

Game Components -> Items -> Pick your category then the item

 

EDIT: i typed the word "prices" twice :> and im only on beer 3 xD

Edited November 11, 2008 by Korrode

[Misery_Machine]

Yes it's exactly like aTeh says ...

I don't sell to bots and i don't sell under ingreds price (what means i don't make steel/titanium armors or great swords).

Once i get to dragon armors or other high end items, i'm sure i'll sell them for much more then the ingreds cost.

 

I hope all manufacturers of high end items will do the same and then those who are laughing at prices now, will stop laughing.

 

 

As a high lvl manu'er and hundreds of hours manu'ing.... i NEVER make great swords or steel or tit plates for anyone but my self, and my guild. people ask all the time, but i re-fuse to throw away money and hard work.

 

Even Red,Black and White dragon armours, there isnt money in it.. UNLESS you get scales for dirt cheap.... and wait for months to find them cheap, but that means you better have an endless supply of bindings and EMEs...

[Darwin2M]

Is it safe to say, that if Entropy wanted all of us to have cheap high end armor, he'd bias the game in that direction. Similarly, if Entropy wanted all the manufacturers to make money on the items they manu, he'd bias the game in that direction.

 

Ent controls the rate of binding stones, EFEs, EMEs, and other "rare" items entering the game. Thus, Ent controls the price of these items. Conclusion: he has control over the cost to make these items.

 

Ent controls the rate that items break, degrade or are otherwise removed from the game. Thus, Ent controls the demand for many of the items. Conclusion: he has control over the demand (and thus price) of these items.

 

Granted, his control isn't instantaneous and he relies on a statistical model that averages out to his intended purposes over time. As an example, when he wanted the price of EFEs to go up, he dropped the rate of making EFEs by chance to zero for a while. If he wanted the price of EFEs to go down, he'd just up the rate of making EFEs by chance and get more in game.

 

We're all just mice running around the mazes that Ent has made. Why do we run around the maze... because we call it a game and have fun running around the maze. How do you get to high level manu? That's one maze you get to figure out the path to. How do you get high level items? That's another maze you get to figure out the path on. How do you get lots of GC? That's another maze you get to figure out. The maze may not be to your liking... unlike rats in a lab, however, you have a choice in whether or not to run the maze (assuming you're smarter than a rat... perhaps not always a good assumption). Ent's challenge is to figure out how to keep the maze interesting to us rats. Don't blame the other rats for the maze... they're just running it too.

 

p.s. Not meaning to imply anything bad about the game or its maker or players - I'm one of the rats who enjoys the mazes that have been set up - keep up the good work.

[Misery_Machine]

i just have a comment to you darwin2m.

 

so you say that Ent controls the prices, i agree to an extent.

 

FOR instance look at the price of a rosto? 19K?? WTF for? oh it is because when Ent went on holidays, there was a slight shortage, not really but slight, and the prices sky rocketed.... did they ever come down? NOPE, and have you asked why? it is because players are holding it up there, not Ent, and there are just as many rostos now as when they were 16k.

 

So the player base plays a huge role.

 

 

Edit : my spelling sucks

Edited November 13, 2008 by Misery_Machine

[Ateh]

I lean more towards MM point as well ........

 

yes OK Ent can control the influx of certain items in the game , but its the players who make silly decisions once those items are in the game .........

 

an increase in the price of binding stones means that the items that need a binding stone should in theory go up along with that rise ........ or at the very fking least stay the same price

 

you cant use the excuse of Ent controlling things when you look at the infectious verbal diarrhea being brought forth on the market channel to do with '' bot has cheapest price therefore that IS the price ''

 

I like your analogy about rats in an experiement Darwin but ive got a little story of my own :

 

You can tell a clever story, and give it some meaning, but no matter how your story ends it will allways come down to the fact that just like 2+2 can never equal -4 , the price of a Ti Shield can never equal 25k unless your a bot

 

*edit* cant do the fancy TEXT html thingy , hmmm

Edited November 13, 2008 by Ateh

[korrode]

*edit* cant do the fancy TEXT html thingy , hmmm

Try:

[s]The EL economy is perfect[/s]

 

Produces:

The EL economy is perfect

 

[Ermabwed]

2+2 can never equal -4

Technically a number like 2 or 4 is just a symbol for a class of sets with the same cardinality. So by replacing the symbol 4 with -4 we'd end up with 2+2=-4.

Or you could calculate modulo 4, then 2+2 = 0 mod 4 and -4 = 0 mod 4 as well.

[korrode]

I'm quite sure he specifically meant 2+2=4 is the case when working within the common 10-base decimal system

[Cruella]

The price is just where buyer and seller meet - no all infectious verbal diarrhea being brought forth on the forums can change that. Ultimately majority of offers do not come in a form "Buy/sell or I pk y00 and your family iRL", do they ? It is always you who agrees finally and puts goods/gc on the table. So yes, I can easily see that a price of tit shield can be 25k or lower if seller and buyer are happy with that It can be 35k as well. Whether you accept price dictate (from bot or human being) or not, it is entirely up to you.

[Miiks]

FOR instance look at the price of a rosto? 19K?? WTF for? oh it is because when Ent went on holidays, there was a slight shortage, not really but slight, and the prices sky rocketed.... did they ever come down? NOPE, and have you asked why? it is because players are holding it up there, not Ent, and there are just as many rostos now as when they were 16k.

Actually there is more rostos nowadays, since players don't lose them that much in pk anymore. At least I believe so I haven't got market channel open for a while, so not sure.

 

So practically price of rostos should be going down soon.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Miiks

[Dilly]

ah, but the people that used to bulk buy the rostos are surely not buying as many from the shop as they used to either. Thus, less are imported in the game, yet with all the invasions we recently had, we are still losing them. so in the end, I would say the rosto count is going down?

[Ermabwed]

Rosto price went up and stayed up because the previous price yielded a worse gc/usd ratio than other items, the fact that Radu went on vacation was just the excuse necessary. In other words: previously rostogols were the great swords of gc/usd-traders (and harvesters) in a way.

[FatboyJaxx]

Tbh, if you don't like the prices bots sell these items for there is something you can do about it....

 

Every time a bot offers an item under the price you think they should be you can just buy them all up, hoard, and artificially inflate the price that way. ;p

[boognish]

Rostogol stones cost more now because they are MORE VALUABLE. (or at least they should be)

 

Some time ago, a rostogol could protect only your full iron set (~20k) and lets say 10 serp swords (~70k)

 

Now a days, the same Rostogol protects 100ks of armor and weapons. Think of it as insurance on a Hyundai vs. insurance on a Porsche.

 

PS. quit your crying and go make leather helmets.

[Darwin2M]

MM - I like the way you think.

 

In response, I would say that there are some smart players that are way too smart not to make stupid players pay (pun intended) for their stupidity. Why do rostos cost 19-20K now when they were 16K before the now infamous vacation? There was a market shortage during the vacation (perceived or real doesn't matter). Note that the price responded to the availability of the item. I saw rosto prices well above 20K towards the end of the infamous vacation. After the shop opened again, the price of the rosto came down some (again, the perception, real or otherwise, that the supply had gone back up). It didn't go back as low as it had however. If Ent wanted the price to go back down to 16K, he'd have a simple way of making it happen - increase the rate of finding the stone from a rare harvest event. Pretty soon you'd find the market flooded with rostos. And when you found a rosto for every 1000 iron ore harvested, my prediction is that the price would go down. (As a way to prove his point, I would humbly suggest to Ent that my rare harvest event rate be increased and I will then flood the market and drive the price down - thus proving Ent's point... my getting rich in the process would be a necessary side effect which I am willing to bear.)

 

As Cruella points out, the price is just where the buyer and seller meet on an agreement for the exchange. Players make a judgement about how plentiful or rare the item is and barter with each other (or sell to NPC). You have it in your power to pay more for items than what the market is currently selling for. If you want to pay more than 26K for a Ti shield, no one will stop you. In fact, many would cheer you on.

[Ateh]

Still dont understand how a Ti SHield = 25k

2 Hydro Bars : 20k

1 Binding Stone : 7-8k

Unless you only make Tit Shield with your own binding stones, your essentially giving away GC to the person who bought it from you

 

But hey !! Who am I to question the finer points of grade 2 mathematics ? More to the point why should I give a flying fuck care at all ?

I should go along with it, unquestioning , never wonder why , not look up past my position ............. keep following.....

 

BAH BAH aTeh ShEEP have YoU aNY W00L ? YeS SiR YeS sIR ThRee BaGs FuLL ( but i wont make you a wooly sweater as it isnt economically viable )

 

Got to ask yourself, can you see a recurring theme from the people who have tried manuing as opposed to those who are buying the products?

 

Which group are the one who dont see a problem ? Hmmmm lol BTW dont forget I LOVE EL to bits, its given me much MUCH more than just a headache , so if it seems i'm turning into a big economy drama queen really all im doing is bringing up points to do with EL economy if you dont like to hear it then you dont have to read it

[Ateh]

where the buyer and seller meet ?

 

That might be true if the seller is actually *making* the item from scratch ....... if all they are doing is buying buying buying so they can sell sell sell ( did I just start a poem ? ) it doesnt matter to them if the price they sell at is WAAAYY below what it should be.....

 

Come on guys all you have to do is close your eyes make a wish and say I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRYS !!!!!!! and everything will have resolved itself

 

OOPS I MADE A DOUBLE POST --- edit

Edited November 13, 2008 by Ateh

[Ateh]

The price is just where buyer and seller meet - no all infectious verbal diarrhea being brought forth on the forums can change that. Ultimately majority of offers do not come in a form "Buy/sell or I pk y00 and your family iRL", do they ? It is always you who agrees finally and puts goods/gc on the table. So yes, I can easily see that a price of tit shield can be 25k or lower if seller and buyer are happy with that It can be 35k as well. Whether you accept price dictate (from bot or human being) or not, it is entirely up to you.

 

so what is this ?

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46806

[bkc56]

... There was a market shortage during the vacation (perceived or real doesn't matter). Note that the price responded to the availability of the item. I saw rosto prices well above 20K towards the end of the infamous vacation. After the shop opened again, the price of the rosto came down some (again, the perception, real or otherwise, that the supply had gone back up). It didn't go back as low as it had however.

Anyone who watches the price of gas (at least in the USA) knows that prices can often be manipulated outside of the normal supply/demand curves based on customer perceptions and how far they can be taken advantage of.

 

For example, there's a threat to supply (perhaps a refinery fire, an incoming hurricane, or even an upcoming holiday) and prices shoot up. But they go up WAY before the current bought-and-paid for supplies in the chain could possibly have been used up. Then after the threat is resolved, it can take weeks for the price to slowly inch it's way back down. Long past the actual effects of any shortage on supply (if there ever was a shortage). And often not as low as it was before the threat.

 

There are underlying supply/demand economics, but those can be manipulated for a profit based on customer perceptions and what those perception make them willing to pay.

 

As suggested above, it's also possible that the threat made rosts go up to (or above) their true value and that's why they haven't come all the way back down to the old prices again. But it took a perceived supply threat to jusify the initial price increase.

[Learner]

... There was a market shortage during the vacation (perceived or real doesn't matter). Note that the price responded to the availability of the item. I saw rosto prices well above 20K towards the end of the infamous vacation. After the shop opened again, the price of the rosto came down some (again, the perception, real or otherwise, that the supply had gone back up). It didn't go back as low as it had however.

Anyone who watches the price of gas (at least in the USA) knows that prices can often be manipulated outside of the normal supply/demand curves based on customer perceptions and how far they can be taken advantage of.

 

For example, there's a threat to supply (perhaps a refinery fire, an incoming hurricane, or even an upcoming holiday) and prices shoot up. But they go up WAY before the current bought-and-paid for supplies in the chain could possibly have been used up. Then after the threat is resolved, it can take weeks for the price to slowly inch it's way back down. Long past the actual effects of any shortage on supply (if there ever was a shortage). And often not as low as it was before the threat.

 

There are underlying supply/demand economics, but those can be manipulated for a profit based on customer perceptions and what those perception make them willing to pay.

 

As suggested above, it's also possible that the threat made rosts go up to (or above) their true value and that's why they haven't come all the way back down to the old prices again. But it took a perceived supply threat to jusify the initial price increase.

 

There are also real world factors ... concerns about the economy (or people being affected by a poor economy) means less people buying from the EL store, helping to keep the supply of rostos from climbing and keeping the prices high. Lots of other ways and angles this can happen as well.

[Cruella]

The price is just where buyer and seller meet - no all infectious verbal diarrhea being brought forth on the forums can change that. Ultimately majority of offers do not come in a form "Buy/sell or I pk y00 and your family iRL", do they ? It is always you who agrees finally and puts goods/gc on the table. So yes, I can easily see that a price of tit shield can be 25k or lower if seller and buyer are happy with that It can be 35k as well. Whether you accept price dictate (from bot or human being) or not, it is entirely up to you.

 

so what is this ?

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46806

 

This is a post about not keeping promisses, reading with understanding ftw

[Ateh]

totally understood your disputes post :

you were frustrated that someone backed down on your sale , because they found the item for 1kgc cheaper so that warranted an outlaws post ........

 

you obviously felt some of the similar frustration that a manuer feels when they come to realise everything they are capable of making is being undercut to the point where it is less of a skill and more of a charity to try and sell thier own goods

[Cruella]

No, I just hate ppl who break promises, is that so hard to understand? It has noting to do with price, manu, undercut or charity lol

[Gilrain]

Still dont understand how a Ti SHield = 25k

2 Hydro Bars : 20k

1 Binding Stone : 7-8k

 

but we do understand , so you might need to work harder

 

if you could break down a tit shield in its ingredients anytime, you would be right, but thats not possible now.

 

hth