Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
warangel

Question about the economy

Recommended Posts

I guess this question is more or less aimed at Entropy... But I welcome all to a healthy debate about the el economy. Specifically though, what do you want the economy to look like? What changes from its current state do you believe are beneficial?

The main reason this game has captivated me for so long is its very interesting economy. So any discussion of the matter I find very interesting. One gripe that I maintain about the el economy is inflation. I know a main challenge for the developers have been finding "exits" for all the GC in game. But what about all the entrances.... I mean some of the npcs seem almost unnecessary to me.*cough* flower buyer *cough* Although I don't believe inflation is such a huge issue I still do not see those entrances as a necessity. (although this is all my opinion anyways)

Another gripe/question.... doing the math.... no skill besides alchemy and obviously harvesting is really all that profitable.... The higher end items sell for losses.... why? how is this normal?

Although this is a sad excuse as a major debate starter I was hoping I could get some input..

(thx to anyone who responds and graciously ceases my temporary boredom)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think inflation is a big problem in EL. After ranging was introduced, the gc in game decreased significantly (see EL dev. blog). True there are more EL millionaires now than 2 years ago, but that's a natural progression.

I think the game mechanics are adequately monitored and regulated and balanced well, unlike certain countries RL economic systems.

As for harvest/alch profits, that is the name of the game.

People who question profits on mid-level items (levelling items) are missing the big picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do understand that its supposed to cost money to level your skill... But take manufacturing for example. The High level items sell for less than the ingredients... What kind of incentive is that to spend plats upon plats to level manufacturing.... just so I can sell the my high level items for less than the money I would make just selling the ingredients...?

I do love the addition of ranging, The fact that it costs so much is a verrry good thing for the economy it is an important exit. I kind of wish that ranging had a bigger role in the fighting system so that way it would be an even bigger exit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, not another EL economy debate please ... forum is full of these already ... never leads to anything good ... ends with bans :P:hug:

 

Seriously now, EL has no economy that can/should be compared with real life one. In case of EL these are mostly game mechanisms that use coins. One mechanism is that it is your choice whether to level up faster spending more or to level slower spending less. But, the more you spend, the more time you need to use to raise gc's -> pretty good leverage (putting buying gc's for $ aside). There are of course some exceptions where you can get exp and money in the same time but these are not giving the highest possible exp/hr and gc/hr in the same time, so good leverage again.

 

It has been said hundred of times that slight loss of gc's while manufacturing can be compensated by one lucky click when you produce a rare sword or piece of armor. Moreover, there are manu items you can make and sell with reasonably high profit, it is not true all manu brings nothing but loses. "If it ain't broken, don't fix" it they say.

 

As to ranging, I do not think it has a big impact now as a gc sink, excluding maybe top 10-15 rangers. I might be wrong here but by observing how people advance in this skill tells me that after initial period of Robin Hood fascinations an interest in this skill is decreasing. Nothing wrong with it though, no need to make it cheaper, easier or more powerful.

 

I do not understand that desire to make EL financial mechanisms resembling RL economy more. This is fantasy mmorpg, no need for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well then tell me what is there a need for? What do u want out of the game cruella? and endless grindstone to become the bestest poonzor in the game?? lol. The el economy is the most fascinating part

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is interesting about the economy is that Ent controls it. The rate of EFEs, break rates, etc... all of these are set by him. If he wants the number of things (high level) to go down, he either decreases the rate of EFEs entering the game by decreasing the chance of making and/or increasing cost at shop. Those items that can be obtained easily are cheap and the cost of rarer items goes up. Just see what has happened with costs of EFEs in last 6 months. Thus, he manipulates the resources to drive the number of items in game up or down.

 

What I find more interesting is the choice to go from a "transparent" economy (where Ent announced changes and specified what they would be... for instance, "changed EFE rate from 1/10K to 2/10K") to a secret economy. We no longer know if changes have been made and can only guess. After a while of collecting data, one can make a pretty good guess. Perhaps this, along with astro and other changes, was done primarily to keep the game more interesting by making it less easily predictable. After all, predictable gets boring.

 

As for players charging less than cost of ingredients - I couldn't care less. Its likely a result of most people being more interested (and proud of) their achievements in getting to a higher level. If they want to sell for a profit, they can not accept a lower price. The fact that they accept a lower price says there is something else that is "profitable" or has more value in their eyes.

Edited by Darwin2M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why most high-end stuff sells for losses? because people wont pay more for them, a reason for that can be a shortage of GC.

 

old story everyone probably has heard before, but still applies:

 

most of the items mixers make end up being used by PK'ers or a/d trainers, whichever you prefer.

those items would be - Bear/tiger stones, Sr's, He's, Matter/Magic/Energy/Death/Air essences, Disengagement/(any)tele rings, various armors/weapons, cloaks, Acc/Eva/invis/a/d/p/c/r/i/v potions.

 

most of those things get bought in a couple K quantity's weekly, the rest is expensive and only gets bought when needed/replaced.

well you do the math, it's probably alot of gc.

 

all that gets payed for from ~25gc each monster that the fighter kills when training.

 

conclusion: if fighters get more income from training there is more for them to spend (duh) and they'd be more willing to pay a bit extra for items, giving the mixers profit instead of losses on sales.

 

not only would that help the economy, it would help pk too since pk'ers got more gc to waste on pk'ing which would result in more action in pk maps.

 

downside to increasing gc drops from monsters would be tweaking it right, you dont want too much gc entering the game, have to find a good balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with more gc drop is it would have to be very gradual otherwise there would be hyper inflation in the market. But it is interesting.... hmm the trickle up approach lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hardcore's opinion is typical for some fighters/pkers - to earn gc's exclusively by fighting/training. If that was possible, majority of people who think in the same lines would nearly never harvest, mix, craft, etc. We would have a pure fighter class with a/d/magic and no other skills (except a few summoners or engineers). Would it be good for a game ? I seriously doubt it. The fact they need to earn gc's also by means other than fighting keeps things balanced. Same for non-fighting chars - the easiest way to raise OA and to get pp's is .... to train a/d ;) I didn't see a single mixer complaining about that though :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hardcore's opinion is typical for some fighters/pkers - to earn gc's exclusively by fighting/training. If that was possible, majority of people who think in the same lines would nearly never harvest, mix, craft, etc. We would have a pure fighter class with a/d/magic and no other skills (except a few summoners or engineers). Would it be good for a game ? I seriously doubt it. The fact they need to earn gc's also by means other than fighting keeps things balanced. Same for non-fighting chars - the easiest way to raise OA and to get pp's is .... to train a/d ;) I didn't see a single mixer complaining about that though :)

 

whats wrong about fighters being pure fighters? thats the whole point of lvl'ing a fighters char :icon13:

"Keeps things balanced" it sure doesnt balance the economy.

and maybe it would be good for a game, a game is all about having fun isnt it? the fighters i know who harvest for their gc sure arent happy when they need to harvest.

 

point is to make the economy better, as far as i can see tweaking monster drops is the only way, unless mixers are happy with selling things at a loss, dont think anyone would be happy selling high end items with 8k gc loss though :/

 

people not buying cause of low amounts of gc -> people buying less items -> people lower the cost of items hoping it sells then -> selling most things at a loss -> bad economy

 

here's a link about how economy works, how to get good and bad economy's - http://vitago.org/wealth/how-does-the-economy-really-work

 

"The more people believe the economy is good, the more they spend, the better the economy becomes."

people believe the economy is good when they got more Gc to spend.

 

(i'm mostly a mixer btw, only fight every now and then)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hardcore's opinion is typical for some fighters/pkers - to earn gc's exclusively by fighting/training. If that was possible, majority of people who think in the same lines would nearly never harvest, mix, craft, etc. We would have a pure fighter class with a/d/magic and no other skills (except a few summoners or engineers). Would it be good for a game ? I seriously doubt it. The fact they need to earn gc's also by means other than fighting keeps things balanced. Same for non-fighting chars - the easiest way to raise OA and to get pp's is .... to train a/d ;) I didn't see a single mixer complaining about that though :)

 

whats wrong about fighters being pure fighters? thats the whole point of lvl'ing a fighters char :icon13:

"Keeps things balanced" it sure doesnt balance the economy.

and maybe it would be good for a game, a game is all about having fun isnt it? the fighters i know who harvest for their gc sure arent happy when they need to harvest.

 

point is to make the economy better, as far as i can see tweaking monster drops is the only way, unless mixers are happy with selling things at a loss, dont think anyone would be happy selling high end items with 8k gc loss though :/

 

people not buying cause of low amounts of gc -> people buying less items -> people lower the cost of items hoping it sells then -> selling most things at a loss -> bad economy

 

here's a link about how economy works, how to get good and bad economy's - http://vitago.org/wealth/how-does-the-economy-really-work

 

"The more people believe the economy is good, the more they spend, the better the economy becomes."

people believe the economy is good when they got more Gc to spend.

 

(i'm mostly a mixer btw, only fight every now and then)

Game economies don't wotk the same way as real world economies ... I remember when beaver fur went for 5k-20k EACH, but lots of other things had no value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not that interested in getting into these kind of debates anymore as i've been making the same points as Hardcore for a long time and the game developers have never seemed interested in making any changes based on that.

 

So all i'm posting for is simply to state my agreeance with Hardcore's points, of which he's backed up with logic and examples, and to ask those who disagree to provide detailed reasons why they disagree.

 

We would have a pure fighter class with a/d/magic and no other skills (except a few summoners or engineers). Would it be good for a game ? I seriously doubt it.
You doubt it? Could u please elaborate on why exactly you doubt it would be good for the game.

 

Game economies don't wotk the same way as real world economies ... I remember when beaver fur went for 5k-20k EACH, but lots of other things had no value.
I'm not disputing the fact that game economies are different to RL ones, but simply making that statement does not discredit the points Hardcore has made.

Could you please elaborate on how the difference between RL and game economies make Hardcore's reasons invalid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Statements

 

A. Ive levelled manu to 59 , but I dont make items such as Steel Armors / Great Swords for anyone anymore, nor do I keep a stock of ingredients such as serp/binding/efe ......

 

B. Dont keep a stock of these because for me there is no point in buying them when I am going to loose GC in the end ...

 

C. With so many new items requiring ever increasing amounts of serp/binding stones , I dont understand where they are supposed to come from or what motivation a manufacturor has ( levels is not a good motivation when you constantly loose GC )

 

Questions

 

1. Why wont the players of EL do something about crazy prices of such things as serp stone/binding/efe compared to end products ?

 

2. Why do some bots sit on what seems to be a multitude of these particular ingredients ? WHy the fuck are people selling these things to bots at a low price , when as soon as they have turned thier back the bot will re sell at a 2-3kgc profit ? What is up with that ?

 

3. Am I ''bitching and moaning'' or am I observing whats happening in EL as an active player ?

 

4. Why does a Troll drop more GC than a Fluffy Rabbit ? Surely the harder the creature gets the more GC you should get from it ? Or is that just me ?

 

5. Why am I asking these stupid questions when after all we will just log in to EL and find ourselves in the same situation we did beforehand, faced with all the same issues we had before the so called debate.

 

Debates on forums are fanfuckingtastic, you try to make a point about something but someone allways knows better and can provide you a link to prove it. To prove my point here is a link :

 

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w101/no...oninggnome1.jpg

 

 

*edit* improved the link for more clarity

Edited by Ateh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are prices too low? Because alot of people on the market channel are cheapskates and the people that have to deal with them are not smart enough or not blunt enough to tell them to go screw themselves and go find some sucker somewhere that doesn't know the value of an item is supposed to be more than the ingredients.

 

Also, I suspect that the EL shop sells items for X amount and then there are more in the game than there is supposed to be so the rate that they Naturally enter the game is lowered. This turns into a "whoever buys the items from the shop owns the economy" struggle. Personally, I don't think that items bought from the shop should effect the rate that they naturally enter into the game, but that is not my decision to make.

 

Please excuse me for being blunt, but it is more fun than being chicken. Besides, the economy has annoyed me for ages.

Edited by nathanstenzel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I don't think that items bought from the shop should effect the rate that they naturally enter into the game, but that is not my decision to make.

 

LOL

If you don't like it, go play some other game. Or play on the PK server, where only rostogols are sold.

 

conclusion: if fighters get more income from training there is more for them to spend (duh) and they'd be more willing to pay a bit extra for items, giving the mixers profit instead of losses on sales.

 

There is a guy called Marro, not sure if you heard of him. I think he disagrees with your assesment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Why wont the players of EL do something about crazy prices of such things as serp stone/binding/efe compared to end products ?

2. Why do some bots sit on what seems to be a multitude of these particular ingredients ? WHy the fuck are people selling these things to bots at a low price , when as soon as they have turned thier back the bot will re sell at a 2-3kgc profit ? What is up with that ?

 

Because you will always find someone who will sell lower then ingreds cost. I guess some people just want to sell NOW and all the buyers are happy with that.

Buyers can always wait a bit for even lower price - until a desperate person comes and sells it. And then buyers can state that they can buy for lower price then you are selling and in the end you are "forced" to go lower or not to sell at all (yes i don't sell steel armors too).

I am personally leveling manu, because i like that skill.

I know that i will not make profit until i reach dragon armors (my current manu is 72), but i like to level it...

However it would be nice to be able to make some profit by manuing items.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Same for non-fighting chars - the easiest way to raise OA and to get pp's is .... to train a/d :confused: I didn't see a single mixer complaining about that though :icon13:

 

Oh, I did. I'll use this chance to do so again :)

- to level alchemy, you mix iron/steel/ti bars (base exp 120-180)

- to level manuing, you mix leather helms (base exp 45)

- to level potioning, you mix SRs (base exp 65)

- while leveling a/d you can constantly advance to the next monster in row, which makes for a much faster exp gain. Yes, it's still hard, yes, it is more risky, yes, times between gaining levels still grow longer and longer. And yet there are more people having a/d 100 than potioning 100, or manuing 100, and that is not because mixers are lazy. Does that sound balanced?

 

The second problem here is that all the other skills lack perspective. With a/d, you can make progress - you can fight harder monsters, beat more other players, maybe even work your way up to dragons. With other skills, you can ... well ... you _could_ make high level stuff, but you actually don't. You just got that high level ... to get a higher level. You can't put that higher level to use for improving in that skill, and that's what I complain about.

 

And yes, I know I could play another game. I am just hoping someone comes up with a good idea. I'd love to make something else besides leather helms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

some time ago the gc from monsters got increased, that worked out well, why would it be such a bad idea to increase again?

there are newer/more expensive armors/weapons then back then, while the amounts of gc dropped stayed the same.

considering it worked out in the past, it should work out just fine if it gets increased again.

 

@ Learner, maybe they dont work out exactly the same way, but some things are the same..

like consumers mentality, people wont spend what they dont have, making the mixers lower their prices untill someone can afford to buy it.

as it is now the mixers lowered prices enough to sell at big losses, and thats the problem.. selling at losses

 

i suggested a solution, one that worked out in the past.. up to the devs to do something with it or not

 

edit: and why would Marro disagree?

Edited by Hardcore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greed FTW!

 

You know an *easy* solution to this is:

 

ALL mixers have to come to an agreement and "go on strike" to not sell anything below ingreds price.

 

It would take some time and it would hurt the mixers for a while but soon supplies of stuff would start running out and soon people would either have to buy it for what the mixers are selling or go without. I think they would get the stuff imo. People who have bots would have to change their prices to suit the ingreds price.

 

Why this would never happen?:

 

Not all mixers would do this. Would always be someone who gave in too easily. Then when someone else tries to sell the buyer would be like: "wtf!??!!? this dude just sold me that 2 days ago for 12gc!!?!?! Rip 0ff!!!?!?!!" Chain affect the next mixer would give in.

 

For something like this ever to work, all mixers would have to participate and stand firm on prices and that will imo never happen.

Edited by Kidberg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALL mixers have to come to an agreement and "go on strike" to not sell anything below ingreds price.

 

Would also need to boycott the bots which sell the ings over priced to begin with, the bot prices control the market not the players.

 

As for the ings costing more than the final product then the answer is simple..dont buy them, if the final product costs 21k dont buy the ings for 30k and then expect others to pick up the loss.. seriously its like paying 20 gc each for silver then wondering why you cant sell He's for 45 :confused:

 

Its the ings price that have to be forced down, not the finished product that gets pushed up, because next thing that happens is the ings price will increase and you're in the same position as before ... inflation ftw

 

@ Ateh players sell to bots because if they sell on the market channel for a cheap price, the buyer normaly just sells it on to a bot for profit, so they might as well cut out the middle man and make more gold themselves

Edited by conavar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the ings costing more than the final product then the answer is simple..dont buy them, if the final product costs 21k dont buy the ings for 30k and then expect others to pick up the loss.. seriously its like paying 20 gc each for silver then wondering why you cant sell He's for 45 :confused:

I think it's not that easy as you say ... Nobody makes great swords for profit. The ones which enter the game are from leveling manu or created form supplied ingredients. Have you tried buying binding/serpent stones that cheap that it would make you profit selling a great sword ? I guess no, because it is not possible.

(yes i know that there is a chance to make special versions of great swords)

 

Its the ings price that have to be forced down, not the finished product that gets pushed up, because next thing that happens is the ings price will increase and you're in the same position as before ... inflation ftw

I agree, but this is not going to happen, until big suppliers change the prices (and i really doubt they'll do that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not getting this - if nothing is profitable and no chances to make any income, how people still walk in shiny armors, buy hydro bars and bash with expensive swords? :) Are we all broken, fighting for bread bags and free st00f on IP ? :confused::icon13:

 

It is true that you cannot make a profit on great swords, however you can make it easily on number of other things.

 

On the ingredients part and its cost - it is very simple. You pay for them what your time is worth. If you cannot be arsed with harving cotton and making thread, you buy it in a general store. However, you can have it for free, just by doing it yourself. The choice is yours and any item is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. If I had to buy iron ore for 3.5 gc I'd prefer to go and harv it myself. In the same time I do not bitch on people who pay such or even higher price for the ore. This is absolutely normal that prices vary and no one is forcing you to pay more than you are willing to spend.

 

The main difference between EL and RL is that in EL you can get absolutely anything you want by do-it-yourself method. If not personally, then via friends.

 

You do not have to use a single bot during your entire EL career to play succesfully, just ignore them and talk / trade to players. Then you won't be complaining that bots control the market. It might surely take you a bit longer to get wwhat you want, but sooner or later you'll find it for a price you are willing to pay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people would stand firm on not selling for anything but ingreds price then we would be ok. But like i said it wont happen because you will always have someone give in. You have people like the some people on this thread that could care less. If manuers would stop making great swords so the supple of them decrease, then the price would rise to what we wanted it to because it would be the only swords anyone could buy.

 

I'm not getting this - if nothing is profitable and no chances to make any income, how people still walk in shiny armors, buy hydro bars and bash with expensive swords?

 

People either take a loss (which is stupid) or make the sword while paying for the serp stones, binding stones etc, and go get the rest ingreds themselves to only get somewhat of a profit. (not as much as they could have)

 

You do not have to use a single bot during your entire EL career to play succesfully, just ignore them and talk / trade to players. Then you won't be complaining that bots control the market. It might surely take you a bit longer to get wwhat you want, but sooner or later you'll find it for a price you are willing to pay.

 

How the F*** can you say this? I own a bot and i agree with conavar. Even if he quit using it, bots would still control the market. Just because he ignores them doesnt mean that they dont control the market anymore? Wtf rofl. I set my bot prices pretty evenly but heres the problem:

I set Citrine to buy a binding stone at 7kgc (normal price). The guy with a binding stone comes along and sees that Cit is buying for that price so he advertises to sell it on market. When a buyer pops up with "I'll buy for 7kgc" he then replys "well a bot buys for that? if your going to just pay that then i'll just sell to a bot" Then the buyer says "ok well i'll pay 7.2kgc" Which leads to increasing prices and:

 

INFLATION FTW!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You do not have to use a single bot during your entire EL career to play succesfully, just ignore them and talk / trade to players. Then you won't be complaining that bots control the market. It might surely take you a bit longer to get wwhat you want, but sooner or later you'll find it for a price you are willing to pay.

 

How the F*** can you say this? I own a bot and i agree with conavar. Even if he quit using it, bots would still control the market. Just because he ignores them doesnt mean that they dont control the market anymore? Wtf rofl. I set my bot prices pretty evenly but heres the problem:

I set Citrine to buy a binding stone at 7kgc (normal price). The guy with a binding stone comes along and sees that Cit is buying for that price so he advertises to sell it on market. When a buyer pops up with "I'll buy for 7kgc" he then replys "well a bot buys for that? if your going to just pay that then i'll just sell to a bot" Then the buyer says "ok well i'll pay 7.2kgc" Which leads to increasing prices and:

 

INFLATION FTW!

 

 

I can say this easily. Here is why.

 

Your bot Citrine was offering cheap hydro bars for 10500 gc. I admit, no other bot selling for less. It was a good price since Miria was buying for the same price.

 

If your theory was true I would have no chance to get the bars cheaper. None of the players should sell me them for 10 kgc since Miria pays 10,5 kgc.

 

So how was it possible that I have bought them from players for 10 kgc?

 

And even if that was impossible, what stops me to start from a scratch and make them by myself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×