NPC pricings

[Elgoran]

Hello all.

 

In short terms my suggestion is to raise the prices NPCs pay for ALL mixed items.

To make my point clear, i will try and explain everything behind it. MMORPGs are played by people who want to dive into another world, who want to make social contacts with other people and many other reasons. One of the mayor points for many people, me included, however is the idea of progress. You have this basic idea behind many games, strategy games, shooters, even Jump'n'runs. In a RPG however, the most valid form of progress is the progress of your character. This is achieved via a doublecorded system: You get experience which improves your character and money which improves the equipment of your character. As you play, the ammount of experience you get and the ammount of money you get for doing things increase. Which is (one of) the reason(s) why you play. For example you slay your 50th goblin which gives you 10 coins, not for the sole purpose to be able to slay your 51st goblin with more ease, but to be able to slay orcs which give you 100 coins or so.(Example drawn out of my ...)

Now let's take a look at EL. The pursuit of this idea is visible when you fight monsters. But, no offense here, the fighting system in EL is not what makes me play this game, since it's relatively simple. As a pure fighter for example, you'd have nothing to do but click on the monster once to attack it and drink a healing potion when you health gets low. No, the strength of EL lies in it's system to make stuff, nearly every item in the game. But here the doublecorded system doesn't seem to be in use (anymore (I started to play this game with version 1.6, so i can't make statements about earlier stages of the game)). You get more experience for higherlevel items, but the profit you make on them stays the same. It doesn't matter for example, if you're an experienced blacksmith who makes swords or a new player who picks flowers. The ammount of gc you make per hour will stay about the same, which is most disencouraging. After all you trained for many days, spent PPs on nexuses and bought expensive books to get to that point. Maybe this was made this way intentionally, so to keep lowlevel and highlevel players closer together. But in my opinion it has lead to a warped situation.

That's why i think the NPC-prices for mixed items(so made with the skills alchemy, tailoring, engineering, crafting, potioning or manufacturing) should be raised at least by a small amount. I'd like it best if the prices were raised to a level where you even get more money for selling the made item then for selling the raw materials to the NPCs. I am not talking about the playermarket here, since you, the developers, have no direct influence on that. I think however, that a change in NPC pricings does affect the playermarket. The other way around would also work, so to lower the prices that NPCs pay for harvestables, but this would further slow down progress in this game in general, which isn't too fast at the moment already.

The reason why

Ok. I hope i made my point clear and didn't forget anything. I look forward to a reasonable discussion based on arguments and some pointless flaming in my direction as well,

 

 

Elgoran.

[Affliction]

i like the idea. would be great to get a little more for my manu skills.. as of now manu is NO profit unless you luck up and make a rare items. and then that doesnt make up for all the gc' s you spend lvling.

 

having npc prices set higher will make player market prices go up on items too. maybe ppl will actually start paying what it actually costs to make an item.. instead of making an item with 7k worth of ings and selling it for 5-6k..

[PaulB]

Did you ever stop to think that the NPC prices are lower because radu/devs want to make sure that most people interact together rather then just run to a NPC and sell their items?..

 

That's a little food for thought...

[Pyewacket]

Not sure where you're heading with this idea..on the one hand you seem to want gc and exp side by side for higher level mixings(which is basically an either/or situation in EL), and on the other you are suggesting selling to NPC instead of players (increasing the amount of ingame GC available to the market since the mixed items and GC do not change hands amongst players, the item disappears and GC gets brought into the game). There HAVE been some recent changes to NPC prices for mixing items (crafters for instance receive good payoffs now for levelling their skill) but the additions mean those mixed items, such as polished gems, are no longer sold to players usually and leave the game as a result. Reducing intermediary ingredients in this manner means less availability for potential buyers who wish to do more levelling in a chosen skill (a crafter who has made some base rings can no longer find it easy to acquire polished gems from market since theyre now sold to NPC, s/he would probably be better off mixing their own instead...not exactly progress for people wanting to make social contact with other people??).

 

In short, the balance between NPC pricing and the market has been debated a LOT over the years, and seems to be constantly reviewed by the Devs to ensure the correct game balance is maintained so theres no dire effects to either the market or the amount of ingame items/GC flow into/out of the game itself. This includes alterations upto and including tweakages of mixing rates for special items/enriched items as well *in either direction*.

[Kelnor]

The problem is not the excess of gold coins in game, it is the excess of high level items, and many crafters, manuers... are so desperate trying to sell their items that buyers get it even cheaper than the ingredients cost.

 

I support this idea, let the NPC's pay more for high level items, let armors and weapons break and you will see how buyers will pay for their items a reasonable price.

 

However this should not be applied to low level items such as leather helms. If manufacture becomes profitable to level up, then everyone will be leveling up manufacture, and there will be a great demand of stones (higher price) and a great offer of armors/weapons, so the same problem will come up again.

[Elgoran]

Whoa. I didn't expect that much reaction to this thread and so soon as well.

Well, perhaps i haven't grasped the problem in it's entirety, still I think some of the criticism i received misses the point slightly.

The aim of my suggestion is NOT to disencourage players to trade with other players.

My aim is to raise prices for made items on the playermarket via the raise of the prices NPCs offer.

To pick up Pyewacket's example of the crafter who wants to buy polished gems: In my imagination a general raise of the prices wouldn't affect this at all.

The crafter who wants to buy the gems would just have to offer more money, but could sell the finished rings/medallions for more money too, since he/she

could argument with the fact, that he/she would get more money from the NPC as well.

Nevertheless Pyewacket might be right about changes already being on their way and i just haven't witnessed them yet. Maybe the items in my focus are also

only in this warped situation because of leftover issues from the changes made with the EFE. I'm also well aware of the fact that a small inflation would be the consequence of

this change i have in mind.

Still I somehow can't change the feeling, that when i fight, every new monster i am able to slay means a better income in the form of goldcoins and experience as well.

But when i make stuff, it doesn't matter which level i'm on. My profit stays on the level of the ingredients that i had to harvest/fight for.

I might be completely alone with my opinion though, since i see more people sitting at a storage and mixing then people competing over monsterspawns mostly all of the time.

So perhaps players in general are willing to give up some experience and gold for the funfactor of mixing...

Well, i dunno, it's late here already, so i best stop writing before my words turn into pointless ramblings.

 

Elgoran.

[Pyewacket]

Just a small point with regards the crafter example, despite there now being greater NPC price for the polished gems, there was little if any change to the market value of end-product rings that incorporate those gems. People still refused to pay more for them, despite higher gc prices to NPC for the ings for a ring. And there's just too many people around who can make dis/tele rings to hold off selling and try to boost the price or wait til you find a buyer willing to pay the right amount.

[Elgoran]

Hi all. I'm back. And since people still don't get what i meant with this thread, i'm going to try and explain it once again.

The economy in EL at the moment does not only differ from the economy in most other games, but is nearly the complete opposite of RL economy as well.

Products in EL, especially, but not restricted to highlevel weapons and armor are considered to be worth the same or less than the raw materials they are built from.

The only exception from this rule i found so far is the health essence, being an item where demand way outstrips supply.

For anyone who doesn't believe me that this is in contradiction with RL economy, write a letter to a company of your choosing and ask them how much money they loose

in making a pair of sports shoes or a frying pan.

There have been attempts by players to counter this by imposing certain policies on the players market, like this one( http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...7&hl=prices ). And of course they failed, since the number of players who are able to make higherlevel stuff steadily increases. Every attempt that puts the main focus on the number of players able to make a certain item will be fruitless in my opinion. That's why my approach targeted the npc pricings.

There has been a poll about those for highlevel weapons and armor, where the mayority voted for removing the option to buy that stuff from the NPCs altogether! Sadly, the poll was only made for the PK server.

No, at the moment, the most efficient way for people who would like to have fancy stuff is to consider this game as a chatroom with a titanium mine/flowerfield attached.

Get people paid for honing their skills and making a great diversity of finished products. If they can't get fair prices from other players give them the alternative to sell to NPCs. If people were asured that they will make a profit of selling their stuff, they might also just keep the stuff in storage instead of gc or ingredients (including highlevel ingredients, where i know someone who was unhappy with their large ingame number ).

Give the term "refinement via processing" a meaning in EL (again).

 

Elgoran.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Elgoran

[bkc56]

There has been a poll about those for highlevel weapons and armor, where the mayority voted for removing the option to buy that stuff from the NPCs altogether! Sadly, the poll was only made for the PK server.

Just a footnote: that poll had nothing to do with the market or pricing, it was strictly to remove the easy access to fancy toys from the PK server and restrict them to those who would work hard enough to be able to make them. Otherwise it would simply be to easy to use an alt to harvest flowers to buy fancy gear.

 

And as a footnote to the footnote: there are manu folks mixing greater swords, crafters making MoLs, and an engineer making large mines. It's slow, but we are getting to the better stuff.

[Ermabwed]

I read the thread before and skimmed it again just now, don't blame me if it has been mentioned but I think there are a couple of obvious points to consider with your suggestion:

1. "Everything is free" (no classes, everybody can (in theory) be able to make everything).
   
2. "Time is the only investment" into any item in EL (and: how to define the ingredients costs for an item made up from "secondary items?)
   
3. "Experience/Gold trade off".
   
4. If everybody can get rich doing what he likes best, economy will go to heck, so
   
5. one should not be able to sell leveling items (i.e. items adequate for grinding) at a "profit" to NPC (in general).
   
6. Items are unlimited in EL (see time argument above), so EL economy is necessarily different from RL economy.
   
7. You need to be more specific, not every NPC price is under cost and not every NPC price should be at or above "break even" (whatever that means, see above) if any.
   
8. All items can be made at a profit if you invest some extra time into usually just one ingredient.
   
9. "Rare" items can get your average profit above zero (esp. in manufacturing) even if you're making a "loss" on the regular items.
   

Overall I think Entropy is doing a pretty good job at managing the economy (saw comments on how good EL economy is compared to other MMORPGs in related threads too) and in my opinion you're more likely to succeed with your request (if at all) if you had a specific item and sound reasons as to why the price should be adjusted.

 

Example (actually more for increasing NPC sell price): Attack potions: with demand for bear furs for bear summoning stones, potion makers aren't able to buy bear furs at prices to be able to offer attack potions at prices at or below NPC selling price so that should be increased; as ingredients costs went up and bears were made harder when the special effects were introduced, increasing the NPC buying price for attack potions is also justified.

Suggestion change the prices to 45 / 30. But wait! Players buying their attack potions from NPC signifies a moneysink, which is a good thing, so... (I better get to bed )

[Elgoran]

Allright. I'm getting worn out and tired by my own thread.

After all there has to be some point i missed with EL having a playerbase of nearly 600 people logged in at every time of the day and night. So they have to be quite happy with the game.

The model i used as basis was the following. I split up activities in EL in 3 categories:

1. Harvesting: After level 50+ I think one can say the ammount of exp and gc one gets per hour stays the same. So, in general harvesting gives you decent gc, but low experience.

 

2. Mixing: The ammount of exp you get in theory steadily increases as you're able to make higherlevel items. The ammount of gc however stays the same. Around 0. So in general mixing gives you decent exp, but no gc.

 

3. Fighting: With fighting the ammount of experience and goldcoins you get steadily increases with your skilllevels. When you change to a bigger monster and your skilllevels are high enough to easily slay it, the increased cost for HEs/SRs is in no relation to the increased gc/items you get. So in general terms fighting is awesome for exp and gc as well.

 

According to this model everyone would be fighting most of the time, but they're not. People crowd the storages all over Draia and mix like mad. So there has to be a fault in the model. I still think that it is the factor of "fun". So basically, the exp/gc you "waste" by making stuff is the payment for the fun you have, since mixing is the most highly developed part of EL.

 

But i was asked to be more specific. So I'll post the examples that really made me upset the last time i played EL.

First off: The iron plate. My manufacturingskill had just reached the level where i would have been able to make me one of those(with a skillpot/blessing and a really good astro).

Now I would have had to buy the book for 40kgc(it's no monster drop). And then i would have had to aquire the 2 rare EFEs/Enrichment stones(they are nearly at the same price, so i don't differ between them). The pc for those comes up with 6.5kgc each, but if you want to aquire them fast(so in the course of one day), you'll nearly pay 7kgc each. So basically the rare ingredients for the plate'd have cost me 14kgc. And i still would have had to make the common ingredients. Then i took a look at the market and found at least 3 iron plates for under that price. As low as 13.5kgc from a bot! for example.

So my fighting buddies run off and buy themselves such a thing where i, who might be considered to be good at having decent fighting equipment, since i used much of my time to level manufacturing, am left out in the cold. And even if i used all of my time in EL to make iron plates, there would never be a profit, since there is no rare version of the iron plate i could possibly make by chance.

Second: The serpent sword. At the same day a friend of mine asked me to make her a serpent sword. She's a good friend, so i wouldn't even have minded if i would have had to make the common ingredients for free. Her offer, though, was 2 serpent stones for the sword. The making of it uses 1 serpent stone and an EFE, which is 2-3kgc more expensive. So I had to tell her that she would have to find someone else on the market to do it for her. And guess what, she did. At the same day she asks me when manufacturing will pay off, since she started to venture into that business herself. My disillusioned answer was "Never".

Those were two examples for what i'm whining about. But my problem is, that it doesn't seem to get any better. There are two rules for manufacturing products: First, they aren't stackable. And second: Every item over recommended startinglevel of 40 uses at least one rare ingredient (not to mention the PK ores). Rare ingredients( like binding stones and enriched essences) are things that you can't really make yourself on demand. So when you need them, you'll have to buy them. And they are always at least as expensive as the finished product you make from them. Leaving beside the common ingredients and books. This is even true for such highlevel items as dragon armor. So am i to be patient and go on making weapons and armor and wait for a rare item to eventually come up to cover my losses? The other 2 categories have this chance as well. And i even see rare drops from monsters announced regularly, where rare armors/weapons aren't even found on the marketplace forum that often.

So, in general, my impression of the game is that an a/d level of 100 is easier to aquire than an alchemy/ manufacturing level of 100. And it pays off better.

Elgoran.

[Pyewacket]

Elgoran, I think this is where it pays off to be an allrounder as opposed to a single skilled none-fighter. You quote the idea of the manu side and required 2 EFE for mixing an Iron Plate torso? As an allrounder, the approach would be to level alch on fire ess (with the hopes of getting lucky and making an EFE) but even if you dont mix one, when you have mixed 4k fire ess, simply sell them and buy the EFE. With that approach for each torso you make, you stand a fair chance of getting your rare ingredients from alching (either from luck or from subsequent sales) to bolster the manu side.

 

This approach can be applied to other skills also, such as alching for crafting. For example, mix enough bars (any types) to cover the cost of binding stones (if you havent managed to mine some out when you get the ings for the bars) and then harvest the ings for the rest of a Crown of Life you intend to make. There is no quick fix if you wish to combine making gc and exp, like you can get with fighting, but there IS ways to do it. It just takes a little longer, but at least you arent having to equip a rostogol whilst you wait, or worry about break rate astro.

 

Edit: simply put, using a secondary skill can often help pay for the primary ones. (including killing stoof!!).

Edited August 1, 2008 by Pyewacket