Temporary class system

[Dushan]

Well, I don't like having a class system here also, don't see why EL needs it anyway, it's good as it is being "classless" like now I doubt that people would go to pk more with this being added to the game. Just my opinion

[Tempest]

It would work like; Each 'class' would have a predetermined profile of 'cross attributes'. A player, if he/she has used PPs wisely, would be able to shift (toggle) from one class to another at will with all the appropriate skill modifiers (+/-) being applied. It would be up to the player whether this would be permanent or temporary.

 

Yes, and a lot of people would cry: Omfg, so unfair, we need a free 'reset' where we get all the stuff reseted and the PPs freed so we cna do a new build, etc.

well, if you play a game where you as a pro player can get killed by a noob within 5 seconds you would cry too i think.

but honestly, everyone would, cause it just doesn't make sense

 

 

EDIT: the fact that 95% of the pkers hate this idea should be enough of a reason to see that it will NOT help PK.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[Entropy]

EDIT: the fact that 95% of the pkers hate this idea should be enough of a reason to see that it will NOT help PK.

 

Where the fuck did you come with that 95% number? Are you reading the same forum as I do? Because quite a few PKers, including LuciferX which is one of the top PKers, liked the idea.

[Tempest]

no, im talking about all the people that PM me and don't have enough balls to post here cause they fear a ban.

yes, they'r scared of you banning them for posting here. i could mention names but im not an asshole and people can trust me, im rather trying to convince them to post here and tell you their oppinion because they make me angry and your ASKING for their oppinions.

 

 

EDIT: and btw, im not trying to make you angry i'm trying to get those goddamn people to post

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[bkc56]

Where the fuck did you come with that 95% number?

As you well know, 95% of all statistics are made up. I think that number climbs to 100% in on-line forums.

 

[Entropy]

no, im talking about all the people that PM me and don't have enough balls to post here cause they fear a ban.

Huh?

 

yes, they'r scared of you banning them for posting here. i could mention names but im not an asshole and people can trust me, im rather trying to convince them to post here and tell you their oppinion because they make me angry and your ASKING for their oppinions.

I highly suggest you backing up those accusations, or else I will ban you for bullshitting here.

[Chosen]

I havn't posted my thoughts on these forums in quite some time, for the reasons Tempest said, so now..

 

This will do nothing for PK, apart from those of the top players who can afford to take this perk, or the 100% mage build characters.. Leaving the ~400 players from 80-120 a/d in a gap where they wont have much p/c, for maximum exp, they wont have the millions of gc it takes to take this perk for the higher level accounts, and they wont want to use there PPs on this perk when it wont affect there traiing.

 

So as Tempest was saying, apart from the "top PKers" your on about, most other people, don't like it. And tbh with you, I'm so glad I stopped training my attack & defence to get raped even more in PK.

 

After this, I'll probs be banned once again.. so.. cya all.

 

#Edit - Oh btw? This isn't me bitching at all, I choose not to bitch, I'm just trying to tell you from the point of a PKer. (And please don't say I'm not, I PK'd and was in PK maps for over 1 and a half years, everyday, for atleast 2 hours.) So I know wtf I'm talking about.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Liquid

[marack]

It would work like; Each 'class' would have a predetermined profile of 'cross attributes'. A player, if he/she has used PPs wisely, would be able to shift (toggle) from one class to another at will with all the appropriate skill modifiers (+/-) being applied. It would be up to the player whether this would be permanent or temporary.

 

Yes, and a lot of people would cry: Omfg, so unfair, we need a free 'reset' where we get all the stuff reseted and the PPs freed so we cna do a new build, etc.

well, if you play a game where you as a pro player can get killed by a noob within 5 seconds you would cry too i think.

but honestly, everyone would, cause it just doesn't make sense

 

 

EDIT: the fact that 95% of the pkers hate this idea should be enough of a reason to see that it will NOT help PK.

 

I get a little surprised when people start quoting statistics or polling results where none exist. I think if pkers knew the possibilities with classes where they could be a tank, assassin, ranger, paladin, etc would make the game more interesting especially in the long run...

[jim55]

Just my yankee 2 pence worth here, but have been busting my ass for 2 years now as well. If i found myself in a comfort zone, I would be be bored to tears. So u have a build n can pk n still are broke. Now someone wants to let some schmoe like me kill ur ass in 5 seconds. I am laughin my pre-rattail off. I dont know where this will end, hope it doesnt. Thank you for evolution in action Ent. flamez0r away, ur talkin to the hand. Kind regards. Jim -x~~

[robotbob]

I like the idea.

 

I just see reactions to the possibility of magic immunity being bypassed causing all the negative posts.

For instance, armor can be bypassed by critical to damage and no one faints over this, and everyone was

on the verge of panic with restoration being altered. It is odd for a melee to be able to completely stop a magic

user, the only problem I still see is: "fighters need another healing option" I have both a\d and high magic level, so I am

probably biased.

 

All of these new changes IMHO are great, and Entropy should just implement whatever he wants\desires and has

the RL time to implement. I'll just wait for the 'necromancer perk', zombies, and a vampire p2p

 

And really no decision should hinge on the opinions of a current minority.

(I understand, alot of code for no reward is hardly an exciting prospect, and add bitching and I say 'well fuck that' too)

[Entropy]

So as Tempest was saying, apart from the "top PKers" your on about, most other people, don't like it. And tbh with you, I'm so glad I stopped training my attack & defence to get raped even more in PK.

Your instead of you are? My oh my, I am dissapointed, making such a mistake with such a signature

 

After this, I'll probs be banned once again.. so.. cya all.

No one ever got banned for posting intelligent, non inflamatory feedback.

Only people who say: "this will ruin [...]" or "if this happen I will leave the game" get banned.

[Entropy]

And really no decision should hinge on the opinions of a current minority.

(I understand, alot of code for no reward is hardly an exciting prospect, and add bitching and I say 'well fuck that' too)

 

It's not about the "all the coding for no reward". The reward would have been me knowing that I implemented something nice. It's about all the coding and effort (testing, adjusting stuff, etc.) just to hear bitching from a lot of people. One interesting thing is how the bitchings are diametrally opposite:

Some are complaining 10 PP is too much, some are complaining that this would allow n00bs to kill high level players, and, finally, some complain that with this thing the high level players will be even more powerful. It is fun to see how there is no cohesion in the complaints, and how the new system would only make "everyone else but me" more powerful.

[Aislar]

So as Tempest was saying, apart from the "top PKers" your on about, most other people, don't like it. And tbh with you, I'm so glad I stopped training my attack & defence to get raped even more in PK.

Your instead of you are? My oh my, I am dissapointed, making such a mistake with such a signature

I've noticed you've fixed the post you made, also in this general chat forum, where you titled the subject 'EL Hardware Recommandations', now fixed to the appropriate spelling, recommendations.

 

On subject, if this is implemented, it will definitely be interesting to eventually find out who takes this perk and who hasn't. While I personally do not believe I'd take the perk, I DO think that people working together to find out who has taken the perk could prove to be quite fun. Seeing how/if a player hits one day versus the next (or summons/ranges/etc differently) would be quite fun. Honestly, this is the main reason I see this perk ending up being useful.

(This could be very similar to finding out who has taken the 'one' perk (if implemented). Working together to see who has taken what could possibly create a bit more feeling of community within EL, which would be awesome).

 

I havn't posted my thoughts on these forums in quite some time, for the reasons Tempest said, so now..

 

I wasn't one of the players who have talked to Temp about this, but this reason alone is why I try to hold myself back from posting on these forums.

[PriVate]

so mean when u are in tank class you can't train at all?

[Entropy]

so mean when u are in tank class you can't train at all?

Not training a/d, all the other skills would have worked.

 

I wasn't one of the players who have talked to Temp about this, but this reason alone is why I try to hold myself back from posting on these forums.

Yes, if you can not follow a few simple rules, then it is a very good idea not to post.

[conavar]

Some are complaining 10 PP is too much

 

10 pickpoints Imo is only alot for the players at the extreme top end of the overall level, Im Oa 112 atm and earning 10 pickpoints (from overall levels) for this would be easy, and if "Mr uber player" has the gold/rl cash to pay for pickpoints good luck to him. 10 pickpoints is alot only if you are not willing to spend them and in that case DONT take the goddam perk... its optional not mandatory

 

 

Ok, how about we have this:

Have a perk called something like "class shifter" that will require 10-20 PPs.

Then we will have some stones, that will cost ~10Kgc, and will allow you to change the class such as:

1. Mage class. You lose 40% of your a/d and gain the ability to bypass MI (50% chance for each spell).

2. Summoner class: You lose 30% of your a/d but your summoned animals have more a/d, as though you had 40% of your attack added to your summoning level.

3. Ranger class: You lose 20% of your a/d, your arrows are more accurate and do more damage.

4. Barbarian class: you lose 20% def which is added to your attack.

5. Tank class: You lose 30% attack which is added to your defense. To prevent abuse (training much better), you would not get any a/d exp while in the tank mode.

 

Notes:

1. To revert back, you will need a class reset stone, that would cost 5kgc or so.

2. You will automatically revert back after maybe 1-2 hours.

3. Changing from one class to another won't require a reset stone.

4. All those class changes will work only if you have an a/d over ~60.

 

Instead of people reading Ent's post and saying " maybe 50% chance to bypass MI is to high,, why not make it 25-30% and give mages half mana as well" they have just dismissed the whole idea out of hand

And yes I agree maybe some of the % are a bit high, but they are there for discussion and could easily be lowered and offset by giving other advantages like mirror perk etc..

[Entropy]

Instead of people reading Ent's post and saying " maybe 50% chance to bypass MI is to high,, why not make it 25-30% and give mages half mana as well" they have just dismissed the whole idea out of hand

And yes I agree maybe some of the % are a bit high, but they are there for discussion and could easily be lowered and offset by giving other advantages like mirror perk etc..

 

Yes, actually I even proposed a compromise earlier in the thread, that would have worked (maybe with some adjustments, etc.)

But no, people can't bother to read the thread or use their neuron to find alternatives.

[korrode]

It is fun to see how there is no cohesion in the complaints, and how the new system would only make "everyone else but me" more powerful.

Ya that is funny...

 

I certainly wasn't saying it.

20% of my def is 23.6...

Add 23 to my attack and i'll be attack 138... sweet!

23 attack levels is worth a lot more than 10 pp's on reasoning.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Korrode

[guinevereanne]

Its an intruiging idea I have to say.

 

I do agree that it might help to know the reasoning behind this idea, but as is I think its interesting.

 

When we first start to play EL we haev no idea about pp, and if you're like me you walk around ofr a month before realizing tahts what they're there for. To be used, to help a person do what they want. And the more we play EL the more precious those pp become. We train hard for them, we get hydro bars and buy the nexus removal stones. We take negative perks and bascially hoard those pp. We plain out stratagies, "when i ge to this level I can raise this to this so this will give me this much mreo xp so I'll level faster".

 

What we doas charicters makes the game go round, we play and have fun, chat and build are skills. Building those skills is so important, which levels us and we get those pp.

 

So I geuss my point is pick points are very rpecious comodities. We work very hard for them and tehy can't be given away lightly. And the higher our level the longer it is between pp. So if a person can save those pp, or buy them or earn them or whatever they do. Let them do it. Let them gain a temporary advantage. But let that advantage has an equal disadvantage to go with it.

 

I know we have a cap on phys and coord now. But still fighters are formidible (says the alcher), and they've trained hard. At the same time its nice for people to not have to work for years to be able to equal or even best those top fighters. Of course then whats the point of having worked so hard for so long.

 

Giving people a temporary advantage isn't a bad thing. Unless of course they end up exploiting it to the ruin of all others. But this perk or idea doesn't seem that way.

 

I think that Ermabweb put it very susinctly, describing the perk as a club and the payments as classes which end and leave you without.

 

At the same time I really like what Usl said. Pretty much all of it.

 

Personally I don't want to see classes where I have to do anything, or even have to join a class. I like that I can putter around with different skills and play. Finding whatever suits my mood.

 

At the same time if someone can haev an advantage over me I want them to have that equal disadvantage. I want the to both work for that advantage. Have to save up those pp. They should need to spend alot of gc to have that advantage and I think it should last longer, it shoudl last even as long as a day. Allowing (as Usl said) people to hunt them back down and get that retribution or whatever they want. This perk should instill a sense of strategy to the game. People should need to think aboutwhat they do, both in the long run and in the shorter run. (Tip. don't harvest 4k iron ore and not have anyoen to haul it to storage. *short run*).

 

And if this perk is implemented I think it would be fascinating to haveit affected by the god or gods they worship. I think this is a perk which should have many different facets. It shoudl take into account the skills, the gods, the astrology (which is very cool btw). And perhaps a person can spend alot of money and time reading a book which can affect the perk.

 

Putting on the advantage shouldn't be spur of the moment, it should be a long term investment of ones time. Read a book before each time. Or perhaps if you read a certain book before you turned the perk on it adds something during that time frame. (yes, I admit I am a book freak!)

 

So, all in all I think its very interesting and I defintily look forward to hearing more. great job!

[Pyewacket]

Entropy, I understand you see, from your earlier post, that the magic skill is a logical opposite to the a/d, so will that mean if you DO go ahead with this idea, that you would consider a magic skill penalty for the fighting related class options listed? Conovar already suggested it in his post much earlier in this thread but you appear to have skipped over that and gone straight for the other points about magic/summons etc being the logical opposite to a/d...

 

Anyways..one other thing I would like to propose to help this actually get off the ground and perhaps meet with approval..

 

Whilst I realise this idea was an attempt at making "Temporary" class shifts available, and that no permanent shifts were meant to be involved, I think that the whole nexus system would be perfect for class shifting and class building.

 

It's been proposed before in the Mage perk thread, that Magic nexus should be used to determine success factors based on the amount of pp invested in the nexus for the various spells (inc MI bypass)..with this class shift idea its even more logcial in my mind that the bonus/penalty factors of each class can be tied into the amount of nexus on each given skill.

 

Now I know the outcry here will most likely be that it ties people into any one given skill too much and doesnt allow the flexibility of shifting as much as this threads original post, but guess what? The classes already exist in skill form on a nexus based system..try summoning a chim with zero animal nexus (not stone summons) or mixing a manu pot with zero veg nexus and you will see my point.

 

So I propose that a minimum requirement of nexus in that class be used as a starting point (lets consider for a moment that the maximum nexus required for making the highest end product of each skill be used as the starting point), then any additional nexus invested into the skill class will give the deciding bonus's and penalties to the class shift.

 

The person wanting to use the class shift idea and gain the bonus's (and penalties) involved will still need to use the class shift stones to activate this, and it will still have the same cooldown period before it wears off, but the perk involved to allow all this will no longer require an initial outlay of pickpoints, it can now be an outlay of gc/items/whatever instead.

 

So for each additional nexus invested in..say..animal nexus, the summoner gains the bonus and penalties at -/+ 5% upto a maximum level (these values can be tweaked accordingly)..this way a person can invest their pp into a given skill and allow for future nexus usage if even more items are added to the game that would automatically require greater nexus points anyways. *summoning hydra for 10 animal nexus, for instance, at a future point*

 

I believe this will make people feel a little better about how theyre spending and investing their points ingame and allow for points to be spread according to their tastes/builds.

 

Again though, this is all based on the idea of extending the current class-based nexus system we have in place to the next logical step as "I" see it, and it doesnt allow the same flexibility that this thread was intended to hit on creating, so I have no problem if it's viewed as too restricting to use.

[DogBreath]

actually dogbreath, i think you don't even know what damage a guy with e.g. 20% more attack level would have.

for you it's like "oh yeh sounds nice, brings more strategy into the game i like it"

but you should look at it like "oh damnit, 20% more attack for a guy with 140 attack means 168 attack, 168 + attack blessing is insane!!!"

 

ever thought of it like that? the last thing you'll do is get more people into PK or more "strategy". it'll just be more slaughtering in PK and thats what people complain most about atm.

 

 

(not talking about my point of view, just showing you what others think and what they tell me why they don't go into PK)

I suppose this means you don't know me at all... (all those years programming and suddenly I can't calculate 20% *throws diploma in the trash*)

 

Please do yourself, and everyone else a favor, don't make insulting assumptions about people if you're clearly clueless.

[TirunCollimdus]

Instead of people reading Ent's post and saying " maybe 50% chance to bypass MI is to high,, why not make it 25-30% and give mages half mana as well" they have just dismissed the whole idea out of hand

And yes I agree maybe some of the % are a bit high, but they are there for discussion and could easily be lowered and offset by giving other advantages like mirror perk etc..

 

Yes, actually I even proposed a compromise earlier in the thread, that would have worked (maybe with some adjustments, etc.)

But no, people can't bother to read the thread or use their neuron to find alternatives.

 

 

IMO people who like to aggressively attack ideas that are in the first post after a compromise has already been reached should get a forum ban. If you cannot be bothered to read the whole thread then don't bother to post. If everyone who was complaining about the MI had read Entropy's post about compromising on that then this idea would probably have been put in game.

 

I could not believe that people were screaming about something that had already been seen as needing a change. If the MI thing had been accepted as a point of discussion and shelved so we could talk about the rest of the stuff then the whole thread would have been completely different. FFS at least read Entropy's posts!! If you can't do that then don't bother at all. The people who can't bother to read or suggest alternatives should not be the ones continually determining the outcomes of changes to the game.

 

 

Pyewacket's idea of putting the pick points onto nexus instead of it being a perk is a good one. It would take more pick points to be able to change to all of the available classes but that would make balancing things easier. Make the class perk take 1 pp and a lot of gold and then you have to use the pick points on nexus to achieve the class changes using the stones.

Tirun

[Tempest]

I highly suggest you backing up those accusations, or else I will ban you for bullshitting here.

 

I havn't posted my thoughts on these forums in quite some time, for the reasons Tempest said, so now..

After this, I'll probs be banned once again.. so.. cya all.

as you can see i'm clearly NOT bullshitting here, and it's not my goal to make you angry or to annoy you without a reason. but exactly this sentence in the above quoted post is why a good amount of Pkers doesn't even want to post here anymore. you will never get a decent "statistic" if people think like that. and what's wrong with me trying to get them to post? i mean you are asking for comments so they should have no fear of posting what they think here. at least thats my oppinion, if it's wrong ok.. then i'm gonna shut up.

 

 

EDIT: and to dogbreath, i was not trying to tell you you can't calculate... but as i can see you don't even know what attack 183 could do lol. not only making people invincible, more like killing the economy because people would go dragon harving and other stuff. (well ok, 179 attack since it's capped)

Edited June 17, 2008 by Tempest

[LeoI]

i dont get why people are saying it costs too much, because having the +20% attack is much better than your 10 pp's in reasoning.

IMO it wont help pk. the reason top people like lucix like it is because they have the top a/d and thus have the biggest bonus to gain, increasing there advantage by a lot against people with lower a/d than them.

(and luci has been going brod crazy since he got back so he would love being able to hit people more >.<)

 

you cant really increase or decrease how many pp's are needed because eighter way the ebul rich hydro nexus players just gain a bigger advantage again.

 

it would only really be an improvement among people that are the same levels but against anyone higher it just becomes to uneven. it would be nice to see it in a test but theres no point in yous going to the trouble of coding it just for player to reject and be against it.

[TirunCollimdus]

People were complaining about 20 pp because then only LuciferX could afford it. Yes I know that is a slight exaggeration but the point is the same. If it were 10 pp then it would be able to be used by more than 1 -5 people. Having the different skills involved is supposed to balance out the igher levels for a/d. Stronger summons against high a/d and being able to break MI against high a/d. That was the whole point of the 'classes'.

 

Change the balance of power a little bit to get more people doing stuff and risking things. If the benefits and bonuses were balanced out better as was starting to be discussed then it would benefit more than just a handful of players if it only cost 10 pp and the money.

 

Saying the original idea would not work does not help anyone especially after all of the discussion leading ot making it better. The mage class was already under discussion and the monk class idea was given approval. There are so many ways this could be changed and improved and then implemented that it is a true shame we don't get a chance to even try now. All because some people don't read all of the posts and want to repeat themselves instead of following the thread and trying to help make changes. (

 

It could have been something most everyone liked if it had been given a chance to even get discussed.

 

Tirun