Temporary class system

[TirunCollimdus]

The ideas Entropy gave for changing the magic 'class' to make it less powerful seem like they would work. I don't see any real problem with this idea except for the cost which effectively makes it high end PKers only. I don't mind things being done for PKers but I think the cost should be lowered so more PKers can participate. The gold coin cost at 10K a pop is already high since it only lasts for a couple of hours anyway.

 

I might take this perk 3 or 4 years from now when I have those kind of pick points available. I also agree with Ermabwed however in the fact that I would prefer other stuff being done instead.

 

Tirun

[Cruella]

For each weapon there should be a shield I would add therefore one more suggestion:

 

A "Monk" class: You lose X% of your a/d and gain the X/2 % magic resistance (eg. damage caused by harm or chance to be hit by MI reduced by such percentage)

 

I wouldn't spend 10 pp's on this but it surely can be of interest of more advanced players with excess of pp's.

[Istiach]

I think this would be little too much. I mean, there is no need for such thing like this suggestion in the game.

 

We have nexusses and skill which in a way actually create clases. We all the time reffer to other players like manuers, fighters, summoners etc.

 

Considering that god gives me +10a/d etc it is still better for me to get blessing than sacrifice 10/20pp + gc. In my oppinion it would be better for the game to leave the nonclass el system as it is, and instead improve the god system.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited June 16, 2008 by Istiach

[Fedora]

Ent, what is the aim of those changes? Are you trying to add classes, enhance the magic system, add different pk strategies...?

 

 

I ask because these solutions (this ad the mega mage perk) seem to be aimed to a major game change through some tweaks here and there. Imo if you want a mage class (and the opposite fighter class) the first thing to do is to change the magic system. Allow only a small set of defensive and healing spells to be castable in melee, add ranged and area-affecting spells, higher cooldown on strong ones, a better interface (maybe a grid of icons for castable spells, not just the 6 quickslots available now) and so on. This way you cant be both a tremendous fighter and a mage, which is one of the main problems. Yes, it is more requesting in terms of programming, but at least it will be a game improvement, not just a fast patch to a flaw in magic.

 

After those changes a "I r teh specialist" perk like the one of this thread could be a nice strategic addition to temporary gain advantages from your skill of choice (no more than 5 pp imo, in the end it's only a strategic change, you dont get only advantages from the use of stones).

[Rehdon]

What Fedora said. Instead of grafting a temporary class system IMHO it would be better to let some sort specialization emerge as the player evolves the character: change the magic system, make some strategic allocation of PPs such as to make possible true mage characters (and also mage-warriors, but as a compromise), true summoners, true rangers, etc.

 

The system you hinted at, deprived of the temporary part, could be interesting if at some point in time you'd introduce "school specializations" (i.e. you go to a school and for a fee you're taught how to improve your fighting, magic, etc. skill) to further characterise specific classes. Again, something expensive both in gc and pps, so that you can specialize in that skill.

 

Rehdon

[Tempest]

not to be disrespectful, but this idea is much like WoW yes? this is just refelcting on an WoW basis imo, tank's mage's, Class systems are for WoW, many ppl play EL because u can choose where ur PPs, you base it on how you lvl, this just takes all the fun and work out. :S will impale PK.

yeh indeed, that's exactly how i think... i wonder why you'r so obsessed by the idea of new classes.

 

EDIT: it's not like i love to bitch or moan but, i can just see some incredible people coming again.. because even i could be unbeatable with at least 2 of this "classes" and the right tactic.

 

EDIT2: question to ent: why can't we just leave it as it is? atm it's pretty good to be honest >.<

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[Atlantis]

Adding the perk to be able to use a service seems ridiculous in my opinion. If after spending the 20 pp, a person could get a temporary advantage (such as any of the ones you listed), it would seem fair. However, since a disadvantage comes along with it (which almost balances out the advantage) it would be stupid to spend all those pp just to be able to temporarily "re-center" your character's abilities. Everyone should have this ability, with a fee for each change.

[Kaddy]

EDIT2: question to ent: why can't we just leave it as it is? atm it's pretty good to be honest >.<

 

Amen...

[Jaclaw]

For each weapon there should be a shield I would add therefore one more suggestion:

 

A "Monk" class: You lose X% of your a/d and gain the X/2 % magic resistance (eg. damage caused by harm or chance to be hit by MI reduced by such percentage)

 

I wouldn't spend 10 pp's on this but it surely can be of interest of more advanced players with excess of pp's.

Or each magic lvl decrease magic dmg by 1

50 magic lvl = -50 harm dmg

 

same for other spells

[Usl]

I undestand you are not asking for suggestions about magic (which hopefully will be raised up at some point), so I will look at the issue purely from a general point of view.

 

Basic idea

The basic idea as I see it is to allow players to temporarily sacrifice some of their abilities, in order to gain an advantage in some other ability. I am totally in favour of this, as it adds more strategy in the game (in a sense, it favours people playing with their brains over those playing with their index finger only).

But, the disadvantage to go with this ability is in my opinion unbalanced. You propose a hefty, one-time, 10-20 PPs fee. Others have pointed out some disadvantages of this proposal. I would rather see a running disadvantage, for example: once you assume a class, you are stuck with that for the next 6 hours of play. Thus, if you lower your a/d to kill someone with magic, then you have to live with the reduced a/d for a while (and the victim will have a chance to hunt you down). This opens nice scenarios from a RP point of view (hit & hide, a limited time for revenge while the class shift lasts, your sacrifice may become a true curse, etc.), and avoids the case where a player becomes a mage, deliver his spells, then changes immediately to barbarian to finish off the opponent. Also, a player might want to take a class shift in advance, and await the end of the 6-hours period before hitting, so that he will revert back to his normal stats at the right moment. Again, this introduces more planning and the need for strategic thinking.

I know you have a 5Kgc stone to revert back, but a cash chip penalty of 5Kgc is nothing compared to the kind of PPs and level changes we are discussing here.

So, my suggestion is to have a mega-cooldown (4-6 hrs of play time) on class shift stones, reduce the initial PP cost for the perk (but still keep it substantial), and remove the ability to change class at will before the previous change wears off.

 

Role playing

It would be nice if these class changes could be tied in some way to the Gods one is serving. For example, Selain might not allow one of his followers to renounce his summon level, or Aluwen might forbid him to become a barbarian. This would be sensible, but would have a bad effect (since, players will probably follow the Gods for which they have the better stats, so forbidding sacrificing those would be counter-productive), so another alternative is to reverse the mechanism by applying a God-related bonus to the "conversion coefficient" from skill to skill. So, God followers would have some advantage for certain classes, and some disadvantage for other classes. Godless players would have the standard conversion rate for every class.

As an alternative, class shifts could be a form of mega-blessing to be asked to priests (with corresponding cash or item "donation" to the temple), instead of stones. I personally find the excessive proliferation of stones in the game aesthetically unpleasing, but that's just an issue of personal taste.

If there is interest, details can be discussed separately.

 

Specific mechanism

It is difficult for us to comment on the numbers, since we don't know what your goal is -- that is, what problem is class shifting a solution for? Getting cash out of the game? Making PK more dynamic? Helping develop a mage class? Make combat/mixing skills interchangeable? Provide a market outlet for some profession to make shifting stones (if any)? All of them, or maybe something completely different?

The only background we have is about the MI issue, but you are not asking for comments on the magic system, so what is the problem with the current system, apart from that? And, if the problem is only about the mages, maybe it would be simpler to weaken MI and make it a f(magic, rationality) vs. f(magic, rationality) test on the two players, with chances of success proportional to the attack caster level and inversely proportional to the MI caster level? After all, a similar route was taken with Restoration, without any major hassle...

So, assuming the problem is a more general one, I'd say that instead of a set of rules for each class shift, you could have a general shifting mechanism like "temporarily transfer K(skill1,skill2)% of skill1 to skill2", with K determined based on the typical levels in the population so to make them sensible, and then let the standard game mechanics work out the rest. By the way, that would also allow for repeated applications: so, by using two stones (or whatever), you could transfer, say, 20% of a skill to another one, then 20% of whatever is left of the first skill to a third (or the same) one, and so on.

But those are just ideas to make the coding more regular, I'll be fine with whatever mechanism will be implemented. Whatever others will be able to do, I will be able to do, and that's enough to make me content - Let's see who is smarter!

[greymage]

The idea is quite interesting.

Would it be possible to make this class changing a SKILL?

In that case, you have to learn the books of each class change

you mix or cast the class_change.

the class_change last less, say 30-60mn

your chances of mixing or casting the class_change depend on your class_changing level.

The price on class_changing components (usual components) would be lower (about 100-500gc) but very expensive in the biginning of skill leveling

[Entropy]

For each weapon there should be a shield I would add therefore one more suggestion:

 

A "Monk" class: You lose X% of your a/d and gain the X/2 % magic resistance (eg. damage caused by harm or chance to be hit by MI reduced by such percentage)

 

I wouldn't spend 10 pp's on this but it surely can be of interest of more advanced players with excess of pp's.

 

The Monk class is a very good idea. We can call it: "Magic Tank"

[Entropy]

Nvm, forget about it.

It's much easier for me to leave it as it is and do things I enjoy more, then programming some new feature that people bitch about. After this next server update, I'm going to take a long break from implementing things, I will maybe just start programming on the client or something.

 

On the other hand, the first person to ever mention on the forums or in the game that "omg, PK is dead" or "OMG, the magic system is useless", has my word that will be banned for at least 1 year from the forums and at least 1 month from the game.

[Tempest]

ent, i love you for this. Thank you very much

 

 

EDIT: I'm not gay, just happy

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[conavar]

I totally agree, but unless you are going to add other benifits to each class, then its not a mage class, its just the ability to bypass MI

So you don't think that actually being able to use offensive magic in PK, while having a lowered a/d qualifies as a mage class?

 

As the idea stood then no IMO it didnt make a mage class, I can use magic in PK atm(with a little luck) without penalty and that doesnt make me a mage.Which is why I suggested that the ability to bypass MI/have stronger summons etc should be based on losing some of the skill involved.. the same as the tank/barbarian class does. Unless other benifits and negative effects were introduced then using a/d would have been fine

 

Nvm, forget about it.

It's much easier for me to leave it as it is and do things I enjoy more, then programming some new feature that people bitch about.

 

That disappoint me, Because in principle with a few tweaks here and there to make the classes truly a class (ie: adding a few more advantages and disadvantages to taking them) then the idea could have been a great addittion to the game and it was a no-brainer some ppl would moan lol

I think what scared some people was the percentages used but these could have been tweaked to find a nice balance.

 

To late to suggest now but o well might as well:

 

Class Perk 5pp: Needed in order to take a class (permanent unless removed by reset)

 

Mage/Ranger/barbarian/tank etc perks 5pp: Gives the advantage/disadvantage of said perk (permanent unless reset or removed by perk removal stone bought from NPC)

 

 

Example class:

 

Assassin:

 

Cons:

 

minus 20% a/d

minus 20% magic level

Restricted to human nexus 4 or less items

 

Pros:

 

+ 10-20% ranging level (increased dmg etc)

+ 20-30% chance to bypass opponents armour (as bp)

+ 5% chance to dodge opponents hits

 

This is just an example and more pro's and cons could be added to balance the class more ie: -10 toughness, + 10% perception etc

 

 

But sadly it seems to late. Personally I for one would like you to stick with the class idea.Even if it puts my char build at a slight disadvantage in PK but I can soon remedy that

It should be based on what is best for the game in the long run and not just a few people moaning

Edited June 16, 2008 by conavar

[Entropy]

Oh, some class perks like that maybe. I already started doing it with a summoner perk, you'll see in the next update. But, of course, this system is much less flexible and more expensive than the one I had in mind on this thread.

[Zeddicul]

since so many ppl are afraid of mages (cant see why i still get owned big time) and we all know EL is classless game (which it isn't imho because you are either an allrounder with average stats or are build for somekind of gameplay, which you can only change by resetting) i still have some questions:

 

with MI magic sucks as an offensive skill.

some can damage with a single harm spell over 100 hp.

 

i was thinking about;

make MI a strong magic resistance, so it would work on monsters 100% but against players with some kind of formula, and that should be more based on skill lvl then on attributes

 

then, I think strongest weapon is term serp ? it can damage max ?? 75hp?? Make harm as strong as that for a high lvl mage, and then i don't mean 120's but more like 80's, i think thats more than fair because its a skill that has no lvl'ing else than using it and that goes slow (other skills have some kind of stuff you can lvl' faster, like summoning stones or leather helm's in schools)

 

reverse calculate the harmspell to a base of 20 and then based on attributes fighters ain't taking too much, i think will ? might be the right one.

offcourse same can be done for other spells.

 

bringing classes into the game... well tbh i have no idea. this is the first and only game i play. I am willing to give it a try offcourse and am starting to save pp's

 

1 more thing, as stated in the other thread: even mages have to make a living so taking too much pp's to be one might end up with only rich ppl playing that gameplay, and the rest of them will be harving bl's for weeks....

[Tempest]

i think thats more than fair because its a skill that has no lvl'ing else than using it and that goes slow (other skills have some kind of stuff you can lvl' faster, like summoning stones or leather helm's in schools)

magic is easy to level, with profit, more than summoning/manu even if you don't believe it.

Pm me ingame if you wanna know and i'll explain it to you, just not in public

 

 

EDIT: talked to u ingame

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[DogBreath]

Nvm, forget about it.

It's much easier for me to leave it as it is and do things I enjoy more, then programming some new feature that people bitch about. After this next server update, I'm going to take a long break from implementing things, I will maybe just start programming on the client or something.

 

On the other hand, the first person to ever mention on the forums or in the game that "omg, PK is dead" or "OMG, the magic system is useless", has my word that will be banned for at least 1 year from the forums and at least 1 month from the game.

Don't let the detractors ruin it. Every new idea has someone who thinks, 'omfg the game is over for me if this goes in' After the changes go in, they figure it out and life moves on.

 

Often, when you ask for opinions, (yeah we know about those) you get a large pile of crap with a shiney gem inside... Just gotta decide if it's worth getting your hands dirty to looking for that gem

 

I think any suggestion that adds flavor/balance/opportunities would be welcomed... Sure, it's going to mess up someone, every new idea ruins someone's plans...

 

The issue is, does the flavor it adds out-weigh the couple of 'holes' that wanna whine and try to ruin the ideas before they even get off the board? Personally, I think it does.

[Entropy]

Don't let the detractors ruin it. Every new idea has someone who thinks, 'omfg the game is over for me if this goes in' After the changes go in, they figure it out and life moves on.

 

Often, when you ask for opinions, (yeah we know about those) you get a large pile of crap with a shiney gem inside... Just gotta decide if it's worth getting your hands dirty to looking for that gem

 

I think any suggestion that adds flavor/balance/opportunities would be welcomed... Sure, it's going to mess up someone, every new idea ruins someone's plans...

 

The issue is, does the flavor it adds out-weigh the couple of 'holes' that wanna whine and try to ruin the ideas before they even get off the board? Personally, I think it does.

 

That's true, but implementing this is is not easy, and it doesn't bring me any money, so if so many high level players complain about it (this was, afterall, meant especially for medium to high level players), I'd rather spend my time on something more meaningful to me, such one of my hobbies

[Tempest]

actually dogbreath, i think you don't even know what damage a guy with e.g. 20% more attack level would have.

for you it's like "oh yeh sounds nice, brings more strategy into the game i like it"

but you should look at it like "oh damnit, 20% more attack for a guy with 140 attack means 168 attack, 168 + attack blessing is insane!!!"

 

ever thought of it like that? the last thing you'll do is get more people into PK or more "strategy". it'll just be more slaughtering in PK and thats what people complain most about atm.

 

 

(not talking about my point of view, just showing you what others think and what they tell me why they don't go into PK)

Edited June 16, 2008 by Tempest

[daiske1]

i like the idea.

It looks pretty sweet and might help pk (even i don't the tank one seems like it would)

[marack]

I'm not into 'perks'...i dont have any but I decided to post because I like Ent's idea.

 

To add to the discussion; instead of a perk to "temporarily shift char class" why not allow a player to shift classes based soley on attained "cross attributes". There seems to be alot of flexibility and potential within the cross attributes for classes.

 

It would work like; Each 'class' would have a predetermined profile of 'cross attributes'. A player, if he/she has used PPs wisely, would be able to shift (toggle) from one class to another at will with all the appropriate skill modifiers (+/-) being applied. It would be up to the player whether this would be permanent or temporary.

 

However, and this is where I think where the game would open up more is with adding many class based things like; '+/- perks', 'special items', 'new skills', and other neat stuff that would cost you and me lots of bricks for Ent's castle.

 

Just a thought...

[Entropy]

It would work like; Each 'class' would have a predetermined profile of 'cross attributes'. A player, if he/she has used PPs wisely, would be able to shift (toggle) from one class to another at will with all the appropriate skill modifiers (+/-) being applied. It would be up to the player whether this would be permanent or temporary.

 

Yes, and a lot of people would cry: Omfg, so unfair, we need a free 'reset' where we get all the stuff reseted and the PPs freed so we cna do a new build, etc.

[force]

Hello , i just wanna say that i dont like this option with 50% MI bypassin , i was training hard for about 1.5 yr to get pr0 a/d and i dont see a reason y a guy who lvls his magic for 2 months can kill me in few sec , u guys wanna ruined PK to the rest than do it but w/o me ,again many good PKers gonna leave imo