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Mage class idea

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To Wizzy: I still think that if you're going to have a % based on level, you'll be wasted as a mage because it takes a incredible amount of time to get that high for one, and a incredible amount of GC to do so. There would be little point, except for those who already excel at PvP and most likely wouldn't want to spend the GC or the reset just to make a mage character. I think people are leaving out facts such as magic defense, and possible tweaks in the growth/strength of offensive spells. You need EMU to carry which is coord/phys, you need health and mana which is will/vit...but yeeah.

 

I dont think it takes as much time as , for an example, a summoner reaching 100 summon.

 

gc's yes..all xp in this game costs gc's except perhaps harvesting flowers.

 

I still managed the gc's for all my neceesitys in 2.5 months with 300 emu..it is possible, but rest assured it is not a lot of fun running to store every few mins :( I think to be a mage to remove MI should take a hell of a lot of trainning, gc's, time and rationality. It is not something that should be handed to you, much like summoning a dragon. takes a lot of time, gc's invested, also a lot of enriched essces. remove mi spell should also use (puts in a plug) enriched air essences? there are many ways to explore this.

 

The way I see it, as a mage pking, I will attack when I think I can, if I think you have MI on, I will be too afraid to attack. If I think you messed up I will probably attack. But I need to use a little stratagey to be succesful (I am by far not always succesfull, but I have fun trying) If everything was kept the same in game, I would continue my build and my stratagey as is, without spending the 40pp on perk, as I need those 40 pp on P for some heath, emu, and toughness. I will just try to use some patience for pk stragegy.

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Why not just simply tie the existing magic nexus to the class instead of a perk for it? additional pick points invested into this nexus can improve the chances of success if the above suggestion of % vs successful MI bypass is used, making the mexus itself a vital part of being one of the Mage Class characters.

 

One thing that might need addressing is that if a mage player is going to have penalties for their build, perhaps a compensating "defence" type spell could be created, (also % dependant vs success) EDIT: sry forgot shield spell already exists!!

 

Just some thoughts

Edited by Pyewacket

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Back to you Wiz :(. It still makes it rather pointless if you're not getting successful hits to match theirs. While the melee PKers are enjoyoing rhe fun and joy of killing other players and ants...you are stuck at home training your magic...and to me summoning and magic are a lot alike...though summoning has more to choose from exp. wise. You'll still be spending a ton of time training your magic so you can actually do something to the others when the time comes. And you're still forgetting the magic defense of items and spells factor. I admit I do like your idea of strategy...and this will certianly make the game of pk a bit more strategic, party pks will be a bit more complex, since you would now have two different types of characters to confront on the field.

 

I say, keep it the same, add new attributes to items and such. And this possibly may put more and new spells in the game :D. Will be interesting for sure.

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One way to separate Mages than Fighters maybe a perk that double mana but get half phisique resistance.

 

With this perk the player can do more spells (one per second) and more efficient.

 

To do it more attractive can access to new skill Oracle with usefull spells like:

 

Magical fog (rain and fog at current PK map)

Magical barricade (generate wall)

Magic reduction / increase (of magic lvl of enemies / friends like a potion)

Phisical reduction / increase (of a/d of enemies / friends like a potion)

Char clonation (generates more identical characters that no take damage like a distraction)

Monster mirror (create high criatures like summ but without a/d)

Weather control (change map to normal / cold / hot)

 

This way seems similar to actual role play and dont have perks problems.

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Back to you Wiz :(. It still makes it rather pointless if you're not getting successful hits to match theirs. While the melee PKers are enjoyoing rhe fun and joy of killing other players and ants...you are stuck at home training your magic...and to me summoning and magic are a lot alike...though summoning has more to choose from exp. wise. You'll still be spending a ton of time training your magic so you can actually do something to the others when the time comes. And you're still forgetting the magic defense of items and spells factor. I admit I do like your idea of strategy...and this will certianly make the game of pk a bit more strategic, party pks will be a bit more complex, since you would now have two different types of characters to confront on the field.

 

I say, keep it the same, add new attributes to items and such. And this possibly may put more and new spells in the game :D. Will be interesting for sure.

 

I can assure you Ariet

 

I have burned more peoples rostos and got a few nice good drops from my pk moments with this charater then I have ever lost. When I ws pked I dropped a few pots and a few essces, a dis ring etc. I dont pk with armor wepons rostos etc. pk is more fun when it is cheap.

 

 

 

Trust me, when people figure out engineering skill potential, there will be mad bombers running amuck also :)

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So you're basically saying...a more or less support class? I like it, but it still doesn't fit with the "mage" idea does it? Since this way everyone will be able to do it, therefor making this whole forum discussion pointless? Also you can only cast as fast as your finger and mouse cna move :(.

 

I'm still stuck on the idea of keeping it a 100% bypass, but adding extra magic defense to armours or armour. Warlock Cloak will have a point to it, magic protection will have a point, maybe tuning down some spells like Harm, if it is a bit out of control, maybe adding more support/offensive spells that will make the mage class more enjoyable, all at the same time keeping it fair for the melee/warrior class.

 

As for the magic level...that's simple, to do higher level spells, you need higher level magic, same goes with damage. I think adding support spells, would make PvP/PK extremely popular because it wouldn't require only the ability to kill, but the ability to support your fellow warriors in the background. Just all thoughts of mine. To get rid of any outcries against the 100% bypass. Which I am for 100%!

 

 

*Edit* I think I see what you're saying Macal.

Edited by Ariet

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For those who do not take the perk, nothing will change.

 

The details are not ironed out yet, so what I am asking for is some discussion on the subject (constructive stuff only), and I am especially looking for the PKers feedback (since it will be mostly for them).

Hi, from another point of view, having a set of mages with different rules from the ordinary ones changes everything.

 

In short, my fear is that this kind of perk is too big, and that it could end up in producing a stronger form of attack spells, that will create a set of mage-enabled PKers, not a class of mages, and zero out all those currently developing normal magic.

First I recap my impression, then I try to give a constructive proposal for such a perk if ent decides to go that way.

 

1) IMPRESSION

Achieving 40 pps requires so much money and negative perks that only rich characters will take the mage perk.

I fear that it will not create a mage class, with people training and developing abilities; some rich players will be able to buy a lot of removal stones and decide to get the perk; on the other hand, people without the perk, who are currently slowly training magic and saving PPs from phys and coord, will be greatly discouraged.

 

Magic will still be costly to develop, after level 40 the main cost is in the essences; so either the character has saved even more money for them, or it will fall short. Please ent, consider that I might be too pessimistic, but if actually the mages with the perk are incomparably stronger than the ordinary ones, there will be a few perk-mages and no more regular mages. I hope to be wrong, but if that happens I might lose my interest in the game.

 

In principle, creating the mage class can have two possible targets: high-level players, who have lots of spare PPs after the introduction of the caps, or creating a new playing role integrated in the game for people who want to explore the EL world opportunities. (If the target is the first one, beside other problems, only best PKers will be able to take the perk, and there will be less and less people going to PK in the future).

 

2) PROPOSALS

I assume the target is the second one, giving EL a new career, and I try to suggest some adaptation of the basic concept.

 

High cost of the perk: ok, but that should be realistic to achieve. (It might be proportional to the oa, for instance, so that an oa 30 player needs 10pp, while a oa 120 player needs 40pp.) The cost might be lower and complemented with disadvantages, like a penalty on other attributes (the equivalent of more pp to spend in the future to get the character into shape).

 

Disadvantages: i think that the perk should introduce explicit disadvantages like a malus in a/d, or a cap or penalty in phys and coord when taken. E.g. a mage spends 20pp for the perk, and as a consequence he has a malus of 10 or 20 pp in phys and coord, or that he can distribute over its stats. This allows more people to level and save the pps, and thereupon choose to become a mage, and makes the perk more conditioning for the role-playing, not a simple one-time investiment of PPs to get sort-of-a nuke bomb.

 

Effects of the perk:

 

- it should complement the usage of other pickpoints in rationality and vitality and the magic level. I share the view that the perk could increase the chances to bypass magic immunity, but that should not be a true/false switch. The perk effect should be proportional to ratio and/ or magic level, so to promote people developing magic.

 

- Halving mana used up by spells is interesting, if it helps people developing at the very beginning. It does not help a lot powerful mages which are able to drain mana, but I think this is ok.

 

- above all, the perk should allow mages to interact more with the rest of the players and differentiate; in my opinion this needs spells which allow mages to effectively cooperate with other classes, much like a summoner can summon in combat or a crafter can make powerful weapons.

The perk should allow this; either enabling new spells created for this scope (a lot of suggestion have been made in the past, from fire balls, to transferring spells like invisibility, to teleporting other players; macal also listed some very nice ones in this thread);

or reinforcing existing spells which promote cooperation (better remote heal, larger spell range for drain, allowing to heal summoned animals from another player, allowing shields/invis/true sight to affect mage allies...).

 

I strongly suggest that the perk is used to create a stronger need to develop new collective strategies for employing magic, and to discover clever uses of it. Moreover, the perk should be hard to get, but accessible to more people than the few who have 40 pp sitting there.

 

 

P.S. Adding up all the negative perks to 39 pps is a miscomputation in my opinion, it will be almost impossible to play such a charachter unless you have a lot of gc to spend in medallions and essencies and potions (again, only the richest will be able to be mages... and they are the strongest pkers and some very strong summoners AFAIK).

Edited by massimoC

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I have 88 Pick Points invested in will/reasoning at the moment. Magic level is pretty low at level 40

 

My a/d is pretty low at 48/55

 

Depending on whom I cast harm on and their attributes and the equipment they are wearing my harm ranges between 95-110 hit points.

 

Imo 40 pickpoints is to low, as for in Wizzy's case its a guaranteed 95-110 hit everytime, to me it would be like making a perk for fighters that made them hit for 100 dmg every time regardless of there opponents strength/armour etc. (which wouldnt be good)

 

If it was implemented as per the suggestion I would like to see the casting duration for harm/mana drain increased alot to reflect the strength of this perk (or the strength of the spells reduced) and maybe make non-multi maps actually non-multi.. you cant range at someone already engaged in combat on non-multi and this should be extended to spells

 

Edit: As for the bronze armour/warlock cape's, iirc Jaclaw did a test with and without them vs harm. and the differance was only like 13 less dmg. So they or new items would have to give atleast 30-50% magic resistance/protection to be any use at all.

 

I think maybe the perk would make a fighter/mage class more than just a pure mage class, unless the perk came with a limit on human nexus and hence armour/weapons that could be used

Edited by conavar

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I would prefer an MI removal spell, having people out there can go straight through you immune, every single spell, is too powerful imo.

 

Your idea is not bad either, however it won't lead to a mage class.

Hmmm ok... i kinda thought it would have though...

 

An example:

 

50's magic Mage VS 80's a/d Fighter

 

Mage:

16/16/40/40 p/c/r/w (96 pp's)

Magic: 56

 

Fighter:

32/48/12/20 p/c/r/w (96 pp's)

Magic: 42

 

So the mage has 40 rationality, and the fighter 16 rationality.

 

Mage attack roll - ((rat x2) + (mag x0.5)) + d50 = att_result:

80 + 28 = 108

 

Fighter defend roll - (rat + (mag x1.5)) + d50 = def_result:

16 + 63 = 79

 

Then comes the 50 sided dice roll;

Even if the Fighter rolls 50, the Mage only has to roll 22 and they will break the fighters MI.

 

I'd think big will/reas mage builds would be powerful, desirable and effective enough for people out there looking to be mages.

 

EDIT: typos

Edited by Korrode

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I should adress my opinon on the 1/2 mana for a min.

 

In my opinion it is not all that important for a "mage" build as things are now. \

 

To reach level 35 magic it is fairly quick to do, then with magic pots it is easy to mana drain to train magic without spending mana. expensive yes with 6 a/e /spell. At my current build with 48 will, I have 208 mana. This is quite a lot really. Enough to pk succesfully with

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I have pked actively as a mage for the last few weeks, and have pked a few people that would normaly be very safe in a fight with a character this young.(you know whom you are)

 

From what I can tell, unless people are expecting a mage to attack, they are completly prepared for it with MI spell cast every 90 seconds. Part of being a mage, is in my view to use your skills and catch people a little off gaurd. You would be surprised with the number of people that found themselves un-prepared. For those that I attacked that where completly prepared. I stood little chance to fight hand to hand. With very little toughness/armor/coordination I often found myself killed in 2 hits, too fast to even dis/tele. The same goes for the people that were 2X Harm and perished. I would argue that the mage class does exist already with PP distribution. Like I say, kroddes Idea of level 85magic 50% chance to remove mi is more then a fair alternatve.

 

Anyhow, those are my experinces with this build, it has been fun/intresting and a bit bothersome making steel bars at mine with 300 emu :)

 

Wizzy, I think thus far in DPa, you have been some of the funnest fights I have had. Though it has only lasted a few seconds, you have almost killed me multiple times. You are/were very brave in your attempt. :)

 

[22:03:39] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:03:42] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:03:42] You killed Wizzy

[22:03:42] Wizzy has ceased to be!

 

[22:11:06] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:11:08] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:11:08] You recovered 160 material points

[22:11:13] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:11:14] Wizzy cast harm on you...

[22:11:16] You recovered 160 material points

[22:11:20] You killed Wizzy

 

Wizzy and Dugur are my heros :D

 

:( from "retirement"

-Atlanticiem

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I've sure there's a lot of fine-tuning to make a mage class work in EL, but I think what we're really missing to make a mage class work is distance.

 

I've watched one of my kids play WoW. As a mage he's casting offensive spells at distances that are farther than we can even see in EL. His goal is to kill the other character from a distance, before it can even get close enough to attack him. If he uses the right combination of spells, he wins. If not, the other person response with his own magic, or simply gets close enough to engage.

 

Perhaps it's just my lack of PK skill showing, but any time I've tried to do anything offensive with magic (be it against people or critters) they're on me before I can do enough damage to matter. (I believe the distance issue also applies to ranging)

 

I think it's that ability to cast spells from 20 or 50 steps away that allows a mage character to function (with properly balanced and powered spells of course).

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I would prefer an MI removal spell, having people out there can go straight through you immune, every single spell, is too powerful imo.

 

Your idea is not bad either, however it won't lead to a mage class.

 

Except, as some people say, you already got a mage class, sort of. This idea would simply introduce some teamplay. Where one person needs to remove the MI and the other needs to harm.

 

-Blee

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I think it will only work when mages have a diss spell (could require some high mana) because now they will probably the weakest person on the field, so they will get attacked fast and a lot.

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I could live with the idea, even tho 40pp is a lot it is doable, I do have a nice mag lvl, (#141 atm in top 200),

 

But few things to consider,

 

to train magic, like a/d players do, we need more spaws like PL tit cave. I spend weeks there already on MD/LD sessions. Luckely bones sell for a decent price else you wouldn't be able to become a mage w/o lots of RL$ or days at the BL bush.

As a mage you have to come too close to fighters, therefor there often is no time to cast more than 2 max 3 spells and you have to start restoring already, 2 sec cooldown is long during a fight.

I would like, instead of half mana benefit, that with the perk the 2 sec cooldown would become 1 sec., during a fight even that is long.

 

Mages carry lots of essy's and pots and therefor also need a decent phys or coord. atm i only have 28 p+c and so only 300 emu, oa's come so slow that i already had to take several neg perks to have atleast some decent R/W to lift rat to a lvl that it becomes usefull.

 

I have been testing pk (and i really do suck in it LOL ) and even when agreed to use no MI i am, like wizzy said already, dead in 2 max 3 hits, before TS=mas -15 a/d I went to DPa several times but the best thing todo was supporting my guildie by healing him and MD his opponent so they couldn't restore anymore. (this is not my kind of pk tho, in fact i hate this kind of sneaky stuff :( )

 

I think that the whole thin could be fun with a bit finetuning and a little more range for spells. Some better spawns to train magic and a little acceptance from the community (atm you are just a tiny bit from outlaws if you behave like a pk'ing mage :) )

 

anyway, now i start saving for these PP's and i hope we'l meet soon :pinch:

 

 

Edit:

Seeing some points of view from others, i must agree it would be more fair for a nexus based spell system, make strong offencive spells based on high nexus would be more in the line of the game too.

 

somthing like a break MI spell can be cast with mag nexus 10, but you have only 25% chance to succeed, at nexus 40 you have 100% succeed. the more nexus you have the less mana you need, like only 1/2 or even 1/3 at nexus 40.

 

this way you can really build and make progress and not having to safe up 40 pp before you can do anything. I think lvl'ing would be more fun that way.

Edited by Zeddicul

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IMHO to have a real and effective mage class the whole magic fighting system should be changed:

 

1. Magic immunity shouldn't give absolute protection

The magic immunity spell shouldn't grant a 100% protection to caster: it should increase the magic resistance, to the point of greatly weakening or denying the effects of an offensive spell, but it shouldn't be an impassable protection for the caster. It's effectiveness, furthermore, should be tied to factors like the caster's magic level, her/his rationality, the combined effect of protective items (armor, magic objects), etc.

 

2. Magic fighting should be modeled after physical fighting

When character A casts a spell on character B, the end result (success and effectiveness of the spell) should be calculated on the basis of the respective magic abilities: a mage should be able to deal more damage (or lasting effects, depending on the spell) and even overcome magic immunity when casting a spell against a warrior, the latter being weaker wrt magical power; and the reverse (a character with a low magic skill trying to harm a mage) should also be true.

 

Every spell having a base chance of success and results, the final outcome should be the result of a comparison of the caster's magical power and the target's magic resistance; both, like attack/defense abilities, would be a value determined by several factors: magic level, rationality, magic resistance bonus from objects (armors, clothes, etc.), magic power bonus from objects (medallions, potions). The same, or similar, mechanism to determine if a hit reaches the opponent and how much damage is dealt could be used.

 

3. Mages should have something unique

The mage class should have a little advantage to help characterize the class and better distinguishing it from warriors. Rationality doesn't fit the bill perfectly IMHO because you can have both high rationality *and* positive features for pking (dexterity, perception) putting PP in reasoning. OTOH, as has been pointed by others, magic nexus is useless for pkers and would be a perfect multiplier (or have a similar role) in magic formulas. That wouldn't bar having a mixed mage-warrior class, but would allow people determined to play a full mage to do so with satisfaction.

 

My 0,02 €, hope it helps :)

 

Rehdon

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mmm...i understand the difficulties of changing magic skill at this point of game development, but i think the mega-perk solution is a bit raw.

 

As in all other professions your ability is measured by skill and nexus, so a possible solution is to make spells accessible by the same logic. Leave lower utility spells, restoration and mi nexus free (or just a few pps :) ) while the others and the new ones (strongly hoping for new att and def ranged spells) will require many pps on magic nexus. This allows for some more freedom in character development, rather than a 40pp perk...namely pk mage will go for the omg-itz-armageddon-dayz spell, while the peaceful ones can stop at the heal-all-my-nice-friends-in-range.

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But then again, why not PK in groups?

Figther vs Fighter, mages and rangers helping out a lot. I mean, if someone's tanking, the mages can do their harms and whatever to kill the opponent faster. The same goes with rangers. It's your decision which one to kill first if the fighter doesn't counterstrike - you might be fast enough to get the mage, the ranger, and then the fighter. Spliting the loot won't be a problem, everyone has rostos.

 

You can't expect a mage to have high number of material points as he must put his PPs on rationality and some for mana points, so looking from hand-to-hand battle perspective, mages are weak. However, I've rarely seen mages fighting hand to hand in other games.

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You can't expect a mage to have high number of material points as he must put his PPs on rationality and some for mana points, so looking from hand-to-hand battle perspective, mages are weak.

 

 

Only if you think at the top end of the mage scale.. it would be easy to make a high a/d char, a few negs, spend 40pp's on the perk and still have 40/48 pc and highish w/v/i (depending on build) , train your magic level for a okish harm 50+ and hey presto fighter/mage . Only having a harm of 50 makes alot of differance when its a guaranteed hit every 2 seconds ( I prefer MD tbh no mana cant heal)

 

Edit: point being :)

 

I think a guaranteed MI break would be to powerful

Edited by conavar

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IMHO to have a real and effective mage class the whole magic fighting system should be changed:

 

1. Magic immunity shouldn't give absolute protection

The magic immunity spell shouldn't grant a 100% protection to caster: it should increase the magic resistance, to the point of greatly weakening or denying the effects of an offensive spell, but it shouldn't be an impassable protection for the caster. It's effectiveness, furthermore, should be tied to factors like the caster's magic level, her/his rationality, the combined effect of protective items (armor, magic objects), etc.

 

The problem with that, as I see it, is that it is the mages ability and not the fighters, to bypass MI as suggested originally, that is used here as a basis for the mage class? If that 100% protection is taken away when it is cast, then the line between the 2 classes suddenly isnt as clearly defined, since fighters would then gain the chance (albeit somewhat at a lesser % since they havent invested as heavily into the mage related nexus as you define later in your posted suggestion) to also bypass MI.

 

of course I could be missing something here but thats the way I read it?

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The problem with that, as I see it, is that it is the mages ability and not the fighters, to bypass MI as suggested originally, that is used here as a basis for the mage class? If that 100% protection is taken away when it is cast, then the line between the 2 classes suddenly isnt as clearly defined, since fighters would then gain the chance (albeit somewhat at a lesser % since they havent invested as heavily into the mage related nexus as you define later in your posted suggestion) to also bypass MI.

 

of course I could be missing something here but thats the way I read it?

 

It all depends on the base % level granted to the MI spell: if it's high enough only powerful mages could be able to completely bypass it, chars with a reasonable magic level might be able to produce some effect (assuming it wouldn't be a simple binary thing: you either are immune, or you aren't), people with low magic level could rarely bypass it (just to leave some randomness in the gameplay).

 

This is were a magic nexus could make a real difference: fine-tuning the formulas so that it would really be needed for higher spells would make a sharp distinction between mages and pkers.

 

In other words: make the mage class unique "enough" and you also solve the problem you mentioned above. Magic nexus need not to be stressed too much, anyway, the formulas and the magic fighting mechanism are the central points, magic nexus can and should play a role into this mechanism.

 

Rehdon

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Yeah plz make it and ruin PK...

 

If MI could be bypassable, noone would PK, i speak from experience, just think about it, I ll have 40 pp less, which i ll get them with negs (even ent said godless is n00b for fighters but if i get mage class i wont need to train) then i ll get almost maxed rationality. Even i will have low p/c, i ll just MD my opponent every 2 secs and i will never die...

 

Totally BAD idea IMO

-Kad

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#Edit - Changed my mind, I don't like this idea.

Edited by Liquid

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The perk is interesting, but imho too powerful.

40 pps is a lot, but if it lets someone deal 100+ dmg / second who cares? Most probably I wouldn't take the perk, but I can imagine many others to take it. Why would anyone want to train anymore when they could remove 40 pps from p/c/v/i and become impossible to fight with. Mainly I'm referring to those in top50 a/d + top20 mag. With 48 rationality and the perk you can kill anyone in 2-4 seconds. Come from invis and your opponent has to be inhuman to be able to react in time.

Result: empty PK maps thanks to frustration caused by the few persons that give you no chance.

 

Of course there will be the improved armours and clothing to give resistance to magic, but the effects from resistance and protection need to be altered a lot, and in trade it's logical to make the physical attributes of armour weaker. As a result you protect yourself from magic (and still get drained and harmed + what not) are vulnerable to physical damage and die anyway, because the person that can afford the mage perk will have BD armour and you will deal laughably low dmg.

I assume I don't see the whole picture here, but this is what worries me. Of course those players that have grinded for years and have huge skills deserve the power, but if it makes the game crap for others is it worth to be implemented?

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