'mage class' by attribute

[TirunCollimdus]

It takes pick points to raise stats and only the recently returned LuciferX, to my knowlege, can afford to max out every attribute. The restoration spell is linked to rationality and I am guessing some of the other spells are linked to attributes too but since no one is sharing the formulas here is my idea.

 

Heal uses a formula base on will.

Remote heal uses a formula based on reasoning.

Restoration uses a formula based on rationality.

Heal summons uses a formula based on vitality.

A new heal spell that gives full health or is in some way better than restoration uses etherality.

* This could be done for life drain if it is considered a heal spell.

 

Poison uses a will based formula.

Life Drain uses a reasoning based formula.

Harm uses a rationality based formula.

Smite Summons uses a vitality based formula.

Mana Drain uses an etherality based formula.

 

Disclaimer: The below paragraph can be discussed elsewhere since it does not actually pertain to my idea directly.

If you want to add in a spell for breaking magic immunity a complex formula based on rationality and etherality could make it a very difficult spell to use effectively for anyone but mages. This would IMO still of course depend on the removal of magic attack multicombat on all maps ability. Obviously it would take a huge amount of pick points to make this spell effective and so the persons capable would be rare indeed. Having magic only be multicombat on multi maps would make this spell very similar to current multifighting methods. Yes it is faster using magic than multiple players attacking but if you put a very small cooldown on some offensive spells that could be mitigated too.

 

Back on topic. What this would do is make it so that fighters with enough pick points can pick and choose which spells to beef up but they won't be able to do them all. It will not affect their current fighting abilities since there is no change to restoration. Only those attacking with magic predominantly would see a change.

 

This system would leave mages little opportunity for emu pick points so they would either need EMU pets, that will eventually come, or they will have to sacrifice spell power here and there and/or neg up just like fighters do to be uber. Later spells if any could be mixed and matched or just put in with similar spells on the different formulas already available. Everyone knowing at least which attributes/cross attributes they needed even without knowing formulas would still allow strategic decision making.

As with the whole game, yes I know, IRL rich people can buy this and buy that and be oh so much more uber than everyone else. They support the game and Entropy isn't going to take away their advantage just to make everyone who doesn't like it happy. I simply ignore what players with money can do since they pay for the game and are spending money they worked to get just like they have to work to get gold coins.

 

Tirun

 

PS if something this in depth has been done before I apologize for repeating the spam but I have seen this kind of thing mentioned but no specifics so I posted.

[Aphistolas]

I was under the assumption fighters were now building with additional vitality, not only does this make them (and Mages alike) tougher, it would give them this new-spell advantage too, wouldn't it?

 

Personally I would like to see the Mage character more defined -- but I believe there have been multiple threads on the requests for these things (new spells, etc.) which largely go ignored, so I guess that's neither here nor there...

 

 

I have to end this post somewhat prematurely, but I'll get back to posting my thoughts a little later...

[TirunCollimdus]

Using a scaling improvement with higher attributes would mean that players who have more points to put in the attributes I suggested would be much stronger than fighters who could not afford to put in as many. Fighters are putting pick points in stuff other than phys and coord because of the cap but they still put so many into phys and coord that they cannot afford to put pick points into will, reasoning and vitality. Taking 5 stats to 48 is 240 pick points and even if you are LuciferX I just don't think that is going to happen.

 

Fighters can put points into raising rationality or raising etherality but not both if they are going to PK. 24 rationality and 24 etherality is 60 pick points and that only gets you do half the max. Someone with 24 phys and 24 coord does not stand much chance against someone with 48 phys and 48 coord most of the time. It would be the same with rationality and etherality. You could put perception into the equation too and spread out the pick point usage even more but then I don't think your 'mage' could ever get the pick points they need either. lol

 

If having twice as much rationality and etherality had just as much effect as someone having twice as much phys and coord as someone else it would make it next to impossible for fighters to match up magically. Fighters would still need phys and coord and you are adding not just two more stats to boost but three in order to get the benefits of being a strong mage. Having uber high phys, coord, rationality and etherality just is not possible under the current system. The fighters have to loose the magical edge somewhere to keep fighting.

 

Tirun

[korrode]

I don't yet know if i think this is a 'good' idea, but i will say that so far it's the best method of having effective mage classes that i've seen.

 

When i'm less tired, I'll think more on it and consider if i agree with your affecting attribute and cross-attribute recommendations for each spell.

[Wizzy]

I tend to disagree

 

Rationality increases magic power

Perception increases rangers accuracy as I understand it (I havent played much with this build)

Charm increases summoners effectiveness.

Dexterity and reaction increases a fighters chance to hit/dodge

Might helps everyone get st00f

 

I dont think it needs to get anymore comlicated then this. I would suggest perhaps with higher charm there should be a chance to summon more creatures then two? This would make a pure summon build (with 48 charm) invest a lot of pp in instict/vitality and have a chance of summoning perhaps up to 5 creatures at a time?

[korrode]

So, you're disagreeing purely with the argument that complexity = bad?

 

Well, i'll always disagree with that argument.

Rewarding rational thought and research is never a bad thing, imo.

[Wizzy]

So, you're disagreeing purely with the argument that complexity = bad?

 

Well, i'll always disagree with that argument.

Rewarding rational thought and research is never a bad thing, imo.

No, did you read my post? perhaps it can be so complicated that to use a magic sword, you should have 4 magic nexus and 12 charm so you can hold it? or to mana drain with a Staff of Mage you should have 30 will? I would say my keep it simple approch is a more rational thought.

 

And you disagree with me without posting an arument why = bad

[korrode]

No, did you read my post?

err yeah i read your post, you said "I tend to disagree", you then listed the current EL cross-attributes and their effect, then you said "I dont think it needs to get anymore comlicated then this."... and then you made a suggestion related to summoning.

 

...how have you come to the conclusion, based on my response, that i didn't read your post? My reply relates directly to what you said.

 

And you disagree with me without posting an arument why = bad

I did post my argument, i said that imo rational thought and research should be rewarded.

 

I would say my keep it simple approch is a more rational thought.

Then, simply, we disagree.

No need to discuss it further.

 

EDIT: typos

Edited June 4, 2008 by Korrode

[TirunCollimdus]

I completely agree with Korrode and so does Entropy. He states in his blog if not in the forum that he wants a game that requires strategy so that it will be different than all of the other games out there. EL has been intentionally made more complex year after year. Even food was made into a strategic resource by adding cooldown to it. Cooldown's only purpose in the game is to make it more complex, more challenging and to add a greater reward for players who think, plan and research strategies for new and better ways to do things.

 

EL being a challenge is what keeps people here no matter how many changes come and no matter how much harder the game gets. We love the challenge that we kind find in any other game. I believe Entropy being on the side of complexity and strategy invalidates your argument Wizzy. My idea is complex by intention. The more complex the game is the more options there are for the players. Diversity is the spice of gaming as I said in another thread earlier today. The more different ways there are to build characters the more interesting the game becomes. )

 

Tirun

[Wizzy]

I completely agree with Korrode and so does Entropy. He states in his blog if not in the forum that he wants a game that requires strategy so that it will be different than all of the other games out there. EL has been intentionally made more complex year after year. Even food was made into a strategic resource by adding cooldown to it. Cooldown's only purpose in the game is to make it more complex, more challenging and to add a greater reward for players who think, plan and research strategies for new and better ways to do things.

 

EL being a challenge is what keeps people here no matter how many changes come and no matter how much harder the game gets. We love the challenge that we kind find in any other game. I believe Entropy being on the side of complexity and strategy invalidates your argument Wizzy. My idea is complex by intention. The more complex the game is the more options there are for the players. Diversity is the spice of gaming as I said in another thread earlier today. The more different ways there are to build characters the more interesting the game becomes. )

 

Tirun

 

Ok, I agree with you on this

 

"EL has been intentionally made more complex year after year. Even food was made into a strategic resource by adding cooldown to it. Cooldown's only purpose in the game is to make it more complex, more challenging and to add a greater reward for players who think, plan and research strategies for new and better ways to do things.

 

EL being a challenge is what keeps people here no matter how many changes come and no matter how much harder the game gets. We love the challenge that we kind find in any other game."

 

Where I think we are crossing paths in thought, and trust me I am not the greatest speller/language guy around. I have always had problems with this, but I try to make myself clear.

 

When it comes to building a charater with overall levels, I think the attributes in play and cross attributes are sufficenttly complicated to build a varity of "classes" that equaly represent the skills in game. I.E. Magic/summon/range/hand to hand combat.

[extrapolation]

So with this idea, the top mage has to max THREE attributes, while still struggling with 80 EMU???

 

I don't think this idea addresses the problem of top fighters having their pp's in the attributes a mage would take - after all, fighters love vitality for the extra mana points and the toughness.

 

If you remember, 2 big changes took effect at the same time: the attribute cap, and the linking of restore power and other magic spells to rationality. Top fighters had dozens of free pps to spend after the cap, and so now all have strong mage builds too, having also maxed or nearly maxed the other most useful attributes as well as p/c.

 

My idea is to remove the attribute cap, or, perhaps better, to raise it significantly (to 60 or 80). This will mean fighters have fewer pp's left over after they max p/c (Or maybe they cant afford to max p/c because they wouldn't restore enough ). Then mages will be more able than the fighters to take better builds for magic.

Then you can introduce a break magic immunity spell that fighters wont be able to use - don't let it have much chance of success if you have less than ~50 rationality.

 

Yes the fighters can then possibly get owned by a mage removing their MI, but a only by a mage who would get owned in 3 seconds of melee combat.

Edited June 5, 2008 by extrapolation

[korrode]

So with this idea, the top mage has to max THREE attributes, while still struggling with 80 EMU???

Well no, with this idea people make a choice on what type of Mage they are going to build.

 

Yet, i cant deny the rest of what you said made quite a bit of sense.

We never got to see the rationality based magic system in effect without the cap. It would have been interesting to see how it would have been dealt with, considering most PK'ers had only 16-20 Will or 16-20 Vitality... we all would have had much weaker Restores, Harms and Mana Drains than we do with the 48 cap, perhaps making the Mage class a much more viable and easy to balance thing.

 

The problem of course is, we cant deny that the cap has been awesome for PK and brought a lot more strategy to attribute selection. There's also the issue that even with a cap at 60, we'd end up with this small group of people who would still come up with enough pickpoints to be both an extremely powerful fighter and powerful mage, and i assure you that returning this much power to such few people will not be good for PK.

IMO a cap at 80 would widen the strength range too much, and make PK little different from how it was pre-cap. (consider that both phys and coord at 80 is 152 pickpoints, which is not easily achievable.)

 

So... i see what you're saying, on many levels it makes good sense, but there is other problems to consider.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Korrode

[Michic0_oL]

I was under the assumption fighters were now building with additional vitality, not only does this make them (and Mages alike) tougher, it would give them this new-spell advantage too, wouldn't it?

 

It Would, top fighters have 4x/48/40+/20+/X/20+ as i said earlier, mango was using a 40/48/44/16/4/40, so yes, fighters do tend to use vita, i use it myself and plan to increase when reasoning hit 24-32 (still need to test it )

 

You should consider that for mage class you would need pp - but for pp you need OA - what is easiest way for OA ? train A/D

 

=> therefore, people with most pp will be fighters. They could do a fighter/mage whereas a mage could only be a mage.

 

If the game is based on PP distribution, fighters will always be advantaged as they are thoses who have the highest oa.

 

 

edit typo

Edited June 5, 2008 by Michic0_oL

[TirunCollimdus]

I haven't added up all of the pick points available by negative perks but where do a LOT of fighters get an extra 100 pick points? I don't see a LOT of players being OA 140 or more in game. Too many resets and simply very hard to do. If someone can get 100 extra pick points more power to them. I can see that they could get 50 extra pick points pretty easy but that is only half of what you need to make a strong fighter who is also a strong mage.

 

Yes 50 extra pick points could let you choose to have certain types of spells maxed out but then you are still looking at someone with 140 OA and 50 extra pick points. I really don't see that many players having the money or the time to get 240 pick points. I know it can be done and probably has before the cap but now I think it is harder to do it than before the cap. It is more a lot more expensive anyway.

 

I cannot see raising the cap to more than 60. I think anything higher would as Korrode said be back to the same. I really don't think it would need raising to more than 56 if at all. 60 would definitely guarantee that mages and fighters would be different but I think 8 extra points in three attributes would do it too. You would have phys and coord as well to raise 8 more points and that would be a total of 40 more points to max all of the attributes. As to Korrode's concern that one or a few players could become power mages and powerful fighters well that is going to be the way it is no matter what. Fighters can be powerful mages, powerful rangers, and powerful summoners too if they just spend enough money. Worrying about those players warps the hell out of anything good you try to do for the game.

 

You cannot plan game design around players being able to buy pick points. You have to truncate every single option and eliminate every kind of diversity in creating characters if you want to force everyone to be completely equal. You just cannot build EL in a straight jacket because pick points are buyable. We have to make it so that players who work hard and can afford to buy some pick points can have options. People who can buy a hundred pick points have other things they can buy to give them just as much advantage too. JSoC etc....

 

Tirun

 

Edited because posting before 4 am while worrying about RL stuff makes for bad math. Raising the cap just 4 points means 20 more points since it would mean 4 more points in all 5 stats to max them.

Edited June 5, 2008 by TirunCollimdus

[vytukas]

I don't like this, all EL aspects use CROSS attributes, why introduce this exception against the game logics?

[Chosen]

I don't like this, all EL aspects use CROSS attributes, why introduce this exception against the game logics?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

"If somethings not broken, don't try and fix it."

 

You can own people with magic now, why bother changing it to do exactly the same? But fuck up some other stuff along the way? I wish non-PKers/Fighters would leave the Fighting/PK Suggestions to the PKers/Fighters. kkthanksbye.

[korrode]

You cannot plan game design around players being able to buy pick points. You have to truncate every single option and eliminate every kind of diversity in creating characters if you want to force everyone to be completely equal. You just cannot build EL in a straight jacket because pick points are buyable. We have to make it so that players who work hard and can afford to buy some pick points can have options. People who can buy a hundred pick points have other things they can buy to give them just as much advantage too. JSoC etc....

Yeah i guess you're right... but wouldn't it be all so much easier if that damn hydro nex NPC was just removed from the game

Cap at 60 and a MI removal spell that requires massive rationality may well be a very good answer to the whole mage class thing. 60 Might is maybe enough to make f.chim and m.chim trainable again too (but thats a maybe, i dont really know for sure, never got up to training them before the cap).

 

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

"If somethings not broken, don't try and fix it."

That's a well known and old saying, but it is never used by engineers or scientist or technicians... they have one of their own:

 

"If it's not broken, make it better".

[TirunCollimdus]

I don't like this, all EL aspects use CROSS attributes, why introduce this exception against the game logics?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

"If somethings not broken, don't try and fix it."

 

You can own people with magic now, why bother changing it to do exactly the same? But fuck up some other stuff along the way? I wish non-PKers/Fighters would leave the Fighting/PK Suggestions to the PKers/Fighters. kkthanksbye.

 

 

There are so many things in EL that have changed I won't even try to list all of them. There did not use to be anything that needed an object in your inventory that disappears to harvest it. When attributes were limited to 15 points they didn't even matter let alone cross attributes. Guess what. EL changes. It gets better and more complex not less. EL changes to give players more choices not less or the same ones. Just to make sure we all agree you can check this link http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...t=0&start=0 and see that Entropy himself was the first person to suggest linking magic to a specific attribute and not a cross attribute. Plain and simple 'We never did it that way before.", is always a bad reason to make any decision any where, any time.

 

Your point is completely invalid so you can both try reading again and making suggestions if you like.

 

Tirun

 

Korrode's quote is why things do get better. People who see something that isn't broken but could be better are the ones who give us all of the things that we enjoy so much.

 

PS The less we discuss ideas on the forums the more often we will get things like MI breaking wards that no one likes. Saying "I don't like it.", just does not help anyone.

Edited June 5, 2008 by TirunCollimdus

[TirunCollimdus]

I was under the assumption fighters were now building with additional vitality, not only does this make them (and Mages alike) tougher, it would give them this new-spell advantage too, wouldn't it?

 

It Would, top fighters have 4x/48/40+/20+/X/20+ as i said earlier, mango was using a 40/48/44/16/4/40, so yes, fighters do tend to use vita, i use it myself and plan to increase when reasoning hit 24-32 (still need to test it )

 

You should consider that for mage class you would need pp - but for pp you need OA - what is easiest way for OA ? train A/D

 

=> therefore, people with most pp will be fighters. They could do a fighter/mage whereas a mage could only be a mage.

 

If the game is based on PP distribution, fighters will always be advantaged as they are thoses who have the highest oa.

 

 

edit typo

 

 

I agree that it is easier for fighters than for anyone else in game to get experience points. The per hit/dodge system makes that completely unavoidable. Fighters use to skills for fighting attack and defense which has magic added for healing. Everything else is just one skill trained at a time. You don't get magic experience for summoning and you don't get per health point and per damage point experience from magic. I really don't see this changing.

 

I also want to point out that the highest rationality you mention above is 30. Scalable improvements would mean that there would be a huge difference between 30 rationality and 48 as well as any suggested increases such as a 56 cap. That of course is just rationality. Your general top fighter has only 68 points put into the three attributes in question and the 'mage' would have at least 98 points if not more. Eventually the mage would have 122 or more points in those attributes which is something you would never see in a fighter.

 

I believe someone told me once that the highest OA person in game isn't a PKer. Is that right? The point is that if you make the benefits scalable so that everyone can use magic but only dedicated mages can be truly powerful with it by devoting enough pick points then with almost all players the system works. Especially if you increase the cap to 56. There just won't be enough pick points to go around to be a top fighter and a top mage unless you buy your way into it and I already pointed out that trying to wear the kind of straight jacket isn't going to work.

 

Even Mango has only 88 points in those three attributes. He also however has a total of 168 pick points showing. That makes him a fighter mage and it also means he has either massively negged out or bought a whole LOT of pick points or both so he falls under the category of you can stop people from buying as many pick points as they want and doing anything they want in the game. Talk to Entropy about it.

 

Tirun