Level dependent summoning

[Learner]

It would need a major code change (or maybe not major ) but why couldn't it be that your character doesn't automaticly change to the weakest opponent? Like you get attacked by 6 rats, but you keep hitting your opponent. Ofcourse you could click on a rat to kill it.

 

Actually, it would take just commenting out a few lines of code, since this is a feature. But it would change the game mechanics a lot, so I am not sure if I want to do it.

 

Actually I think it would spice pk up a little more. Now the weakest person takes all damage so weaker people keep out of PK (atleast I did for this reason long ago). This way you could also prevent people from killing dragons while keeping them away from the fighter with rats. I don't think it would harm the game (though for some people it would get harder, for some people it would get easier). I think we really need to be able to summon while fighting to make the summoning skill more important.

If you want to spice things up, you change it to fighting the Strongest opponent. That way the weaker players are encouraged to help

[Entropy]

Actually I think it would spice pk up a little more. Now the weakest person takes all damage so weaker people keep out of PK (atleast I did for this reason long ago). This way you could also prevent people from killing dragons while keeping them away from the fighter with rats. I don't think it would harm the game (though for some people it would get harder, for some people it would get easier). I think we really need to be able to summon while fighting to make the summoning skill more important.

 

The thing is, if I change it, then weaker people will be able to fight the dragon too, so they will just get a tank and then have 7 other relatively weak people all do damage to the dragon.

I don't want that to happen.

[kl4Uz]

The thing is, if I change it, then weaker people will be able to fight the dragon too, so they will just get a tank and then have 7 other relatively weak people all do damage to the dragon.

I don't want that to happen.

 

I didn't completely think this through, but wouldn't that be a good thing? I mean as in encouraging teamed efforts to take creatures down. As far as I remember these strong creatures were always intended to be ganged.

[Entropy]

Yes, obviously, but that doesn't mean that they should be stupid and be easy to kill. If I wanted that, I'd just make a practicing doll with 150 a/d, 0 p/c, and -20 damage.

[Cycloonx]

Yes, obviously, but that doesn't mean that they should be stupid and be easy to kill. If I wanted that, I'd just make a practicing doll with 150 a/d, 0 p/c, and -20 damage.

 

You can make it so that monsters keep changing opponents after a random amount of attacks (like per 3-4 attacks it takes another opponent). I think this would be pretty cool

[Schmurk]

Yes, obviously, but that doesn't mean that they should be stupid and be easy to kill. If I wanted that, I'd just make a practicing doll with 150 a/d, 0 p/c, and -20 damage.

I think the behaviour should be different for players and for creatures. Players are supposed to be smart enough to know which opponent they should attack. However creatures are controlled by an AI so it makes sense that they decide automatically to attack weaker opponents.

But making it random like cycloonx proposed would be also really nice.

[Jaclaw]

Yes, obviously, but that doesn't mean that they should be stupid and be easy to kill. If I wanted that, I'd just make a practicing doll with 150 a/d, 0 p/c, and -20 damage.

 

You can make it so that monsters keep changing opponents after a random amount of attacks (like per 3-4 attacks it takes another opponent). I think this would be pretty cool

resyncs would kill you

[Entropy]

You can make it so that monsters keep changing opponents after a random amount of attacks (like per 3-4 attacks it takes another opponent). I think this would be pretty cool

 

I think you still do not understand what I said: I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE HIGHER LEVEL MONSTERS EASIER TO KILL!

 

I think the behaviour should be different for players and for creatures. Players are supposed to be smart enough to know which opponent they should attack. However creatures are controlled by an AI so it makes sense that they decide automatically to attack weaker opponents.

But making it random like cycloonx proposed would be also really nice.

 

That I did think of, but the problem is that it can be a disadvantage if people summon tigers and spiders and stuff, because by the time you change to them manually, they will already inflict their effects on you.

[Cycloonx]

You can make it so that monsters keep changing opponents after a random amount of attacks (like per 3-4 attacks it takes another opponent). I think this would be pretty cool

 

I think you still do not understand what I said: I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE HIGHER LEVEL MONSTERS EASIER TO KILL!

 

No need to yell man. And what do you mean to not make it easier? Like it is now you can kill dragons easy if you just keep summoning rabbits, then 7 other people can dodge it without taking damage. I remember doing this in the past when AC was introduced, I summoned rabbits, toomass killed AC without taking damage.

 

But yea, I guess I shouldn't reply anymore to your posts. You don't even appreciate people giving feedback. Why do you even ask for feedback? If you didn't like my post, you should have just ignored...

[Entropy]

No need to yell man. And what do you mean to not make it easier? Like it is now you can kill dragons easy if you just keep summoning rabbits, then 7 other people can dodge it without taking damage. I remember doing this in the past when AC was introduced, I summoned rabbits, toomass killed AC without taking damage.

You can do that, but you need more people to summon rabbits, or else the dragon kills them faster than you summon them then hurts the weakest player.

 

But yea, I guess I shouldn't reply anymore to your posts. You don't even appreciate people giving feedback. Why do you even ask for feedback? If you didn't like my post, you should have just ignored...

When I tell you 10 times that I do not want dragons to be killed easier by low level people, and you come up with a 'solution' like that, then of course I am going to be pissed off and not like your reply. It's kind of like nagging.

 

 

Oh, and if you put this this way, WHEN did I ask for feedback regarding this issue???

[vytukas]

Back to the topic, I suggest implementing it somehow differently than absolute ratio (summ lvl./100). This way weak summoners will summon very crappy creatures even if those are bears or goblins.

 

I suggest it would be implemented like, for instance,

ATT = creature's. att. level* summoner's level/ reccomended level for summoning, capped at double att lets say.

This way, your summons from the stones would be strong if you have sufficient level, for example your spider from stone may be full strength while your giant may be weak. That is, different factors for different summons, makes more sense for me than absolute ratio

 

 

But generally I like your idea.

[snoozy]

nice idea i always tought summoners never had any bonus over other people with like 70 lvls less.. maby add some HP boost to the monsters? or change there effects abit per lvl ?

 

cycloons idea is nice too, but maby better if it be changed only in pvp/pk and not by AI

so u cant get easy dragon kills etc

[Entropy]

Back to the topic, I suggest implementing it somehow differently than absolute ratio (summ lvl./100). This way weak summoners will summon very crappy creatures even if those are bears or goblins.

 

I suggest it would be implemented like, for instance,

ATT = creature's. att. level* summoner's level/ reccomended level for summoning, capped at double att lets say.

This way, your summons from the stones would be strong if you have sufficient level, for example your spider from stone may be full strength while your giant may be weak. That is, different factors for different summons, makes more sense for me than absolute ratio

 

 

But generally I like your idea.

 

So then there would be no point in summoning creatures of your level, because creatures half of your level will be just as strong.

[Alberich]

Wouldn't the original formula suck for low level summoners, who summon animals to kill other animals for ings and can't train on stones yet?

 

Like when you're level 30 and your rats still get owned by regular rats because they have no defense

(if I calculated right the stats would be a/d 3/0 (2.6/0.45) vs a regular rat with a/d 2/3)

I know bad example, at level 30 you shouldn't train on rats but you get my point.

 

Perhaps to start off with some def like 30% of base level and an att penalty 80% base level would be more balanced.

 

btw: shouldn't charm make summons stronger at least thats what the encyclopedia says.

[TirunCollimdus]

I think that the lower levels being weaker is a good idea. That gives you incentive to up your charm and get double creatures to be a strong lower level summoner. As was pointed out the rats is a bad example. As it is you can't really kill something that is the same creature because summons have zero defense. I don't that should change. Entropy's idea actually gives you a better chance of killing the same thing you are summoning because you have some defense instead of none.

 

The way Entropy suggested it seems to be the best solution I have seen so far in the thread. Changing what players auto attack would be great but has nothing to do with this topic. Changing what AI attacks, as Entropy stated, makes killing high level creatures easier. If you want to summon a small army of stuff to kill the dragon without getting hit at least it will cost you a ton of ings. I think the dragons should be able to hit multiple creatures at once if they are low enough level i.e. rats, bunnies, etc. so that you have to summon something higher if you want to use that method to kill them.

 

This is a great idea as suggested by Entropy with no changes needed IMO. The bonus for att and def makes summons better than they are now and with a high charm getting double creatures would be just awesome. I think it would be VERY cool to see a high level summoner killing gargoyles with rabbits. Bring it in as it is. I am going to level my summoning after I reset so this would be great incentive for me to work even harder at getting ings before I reset.

 

Tirun

[Entropy]

btw: shouldn't charm make summons stronger at least thats what the encyclopedia says.

 

Shouldn't the CPUs have transistors?

[Alberich]

btw: shouldn't charm make summons stronger at least thats what the encyclopedia says.

Shouldn't the CPUs have transistors?

, found it in some old thread: charm gives critical to hit and critical to damage bonus to the summons.

[vytukas]

So then there would be no point in summoning creatures of your level, because creatures half of your level will be just as strong.

 

How come? What I suggest is something like, for example:

 

Polar bear is summoning lvl 40, lets say I have level 37 (that is my actual level ingame). Bear is att. 55.

So I produce bear that has att 55*37/ 40 = 50.875 (rounded down to 50 or whatever rounding scheme is used).

 

If I have level >=80, I produce bear that is attack 110.

 

Same with stones, so to get a full power summon from stone you will need very high summon level since they usually have higher level requirements. For example, to get a full attack yeti from stone you would need summ. 130 (pretty impossible). But at summoning level something like 100 you would get yeti with attack somewhere around 192, that is reasonably high to block anyway. Anyway, if you want strong creatures it would encourage to summon not from stones.

 

The reasoning behind my suggestion is that you shouldn't be summoning level 100 to produce a max. power snake or rat.

I didn't cover defense, but it can be calculated in a similar manner as desired

[Entropy]

Yes, and with your formula, the bear at level 100 summoning would have 137 attack. That's not as high as an Yeti (192), but it is MUCH cheaper. So, obviously, it's much better to summon 20 bears than 1 yeti (and still cheaper than an yeti).

[TirunCollimdus]

Obviously Entropy took the time to make sure his own suggestion would be well balanced for the game in cost and effect. I think it is a waste of time to try coming up with different formulas for giving att/def to the summons. Let's forget about trying to min/max the formula and just get it into game. I don't see anything wrong with Entropy's formula considering what he will and won't change as already stated in this thread.

 

IMO our time is better spent just getting behind this idea and getting it in game or suggesting different ways it could be changed that are not about the formula. I think this idea is great but I really think that improving the att/def of summons should be done in conjunction with reducing the automatic damage they take every round. 1 less point of damage per 10 levels of summoning with a max based on the creature summoned so that it doesn't wind up giving the summons health instead of them loosing it.

 

The higher level summons already have enriched essences as ings so if we are going to make them worth summoning with this new idea then why not really go all the way? Having to constantly heal summons that took you an enriched essence to make in the first place is a pretty rough deal IMO. This would not apply to anything summoned by stones. Add this to Entropy's idea and summoning would really be worth doing in and out of PK. A whole lot more stuff would go out of game as people leveled summoning and there would be a lot more people putting pick points into raising charm. Diversity is the spice of gaming.

Tirun

Edited June 4, 2008 by TirunCollimdus

[Tempest]

i don't have any problems with the idea but somehow i just don't get what this should help with.

basicly dragons/giants are made weaker than they were before, even at level 100 summoning and lower creatures like bears will be stronger at level 100 (same attack, but def). can someone tell me what the benefit of this would be? i don't get it

[Jaclaw]

that 0 summon player can't summon 280 attack giant anymore ?

[Entropy]

i don't have any problems with the idea but somehow i just don't get what this should help with.

basicly dragons/giants are made weaker than they were before, even at level 100 summoning and lower creatures like bears will be stronger at level 100 (same attack, but def). can someone tell me what the benefit of this would be? i don't get it

 

Explain how they will be made weaker than before, at level 100 summoning.

[TirunCollimdus]

When a monster is summoned, the base attack will be the normal attack of the monster, and based defense will be 0.

For each level of the summoner, the monster will gain 1% to it's attack, up to 200% of the initial value. The defense will increase with 1% for each 2 levels of the summoner.

This would apply for both the normally summoned monsters, and for the summoning stone monsters.

 

i don't have any problems with the idea but somehow i just don't get what this should help with.

basicly dragons/giants are made weaker than they were before, even at level 100 summoning and lower creatures like bears will be stronger at level 100 (same attack, but def). can someone tell me what the benefit of this would be? i don't get it

 

What I read is that the summons have the normal attack for the monster summoned which is exactly the same as it has always been, right? I also read that the defense is zero which is still no change. Then added to these status quo stats you get a bonus 1% for attack levels per summoner level and 1% bonus for defense levels per 2 summoner levels. No matter what you do you are adding to the normal base summons stats right? Did I read this wrong? Sounds to me like no matter what your level the summons are going to be stronger than they were before the change.

 

Tirun

 

My summoning is zero but if current summons attack at 150% of normal value then at summon level 50 you are back to where the standard summon attack was at plus a bunch of extra defense you didn't have. At level 100 you are at 200% attack and a massively higher defense than zero. That is so much stronger than a normal summons they don't even compare. I don't know which is right this or the above but either way summons are stronger. They get defense plus raised attack values. This is a great idea.

Edited June 4, 2008 by TirunCollimdus

[Tempest]

i don't have any problems with the idea but somehow i just don't get what this should help with.

basicly dragons/giants are made weaker than they were before, even at level 100 summoning and lower creatures like bears will be stronger at level 100 (same attack, but def). can someone tell me what the benefit of this would be? i don't get it

 

Explain how they will be made weaker than before, at level 100 summoning.

sorry, meant lower than 100, e.g. 99,98,97 etc.

also noticed that my calcs were a lil wrong lolz.

 

EDIT: and tirun, with the first sentence he meant the normal attack of a monster. summoned monsters always have 2x attack so 290 for summoned giant. therefor it has 9 def. the bonus will be added onto the normal attack level 145 in this case.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Tempest