Level dependent summoning

[Entropy]

Right now, the summoning skill is not THAT useful, because it requires a lot of stuff to level up, and there are summoning stones that can be used by non summoners.

So I was thinking to make the following changes:

When a monster is summoned, the base attack will be the normal attack of the monster, and based defense will be 0.

For each level of the summoner, the monster will gain 1% to it's attack, up to 200% of the initial value. The defense will increase with 1% for each 2 levels of the summoner.

This would apply for both the normally summoned monsters, and for the summoning stone monsters.

 

Please discuss, and remember to bring arguments and stuff, not just: "Omfg, this will ruin the game" or "Omfg, this r0x".

[TessAnna]

I am not a summoner, so if I piss off summoners, forgive me. In all honesty, this makes more sense to me. Very logical.

[Quesar]

I don't think a defense penalty quite that severe is warranted. You would need to be summoning 200 to get a summon with it's normal defense. Maybe 2 or 4% per level would work better, with a cap at either 100% or maybe even 120%. That would give a level 50 summoner full strength defense and a 50% attack bonus.

 

I don't think this makes as much sense for stones though, as the skill involved is in making them, not using them. That is the whole point of the stones. Making the stone strength depend on the user's skill level makes as much sense as a fighter's usage of a weapon being dependent on his own manufacturing skill.

 

Edit- When I posted this I didn't realize summons already had defense level 0. I thought this was creating a penalty that was slowly removed as you leveled. I will ask more questions and make fewer statements if I post anything again.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Quesar

[Entropy]

I don't think a defense penalty quite that severe is warranted. You would need to be summoning 200 to get a summon with it's normal defense. Maybe 2 or 4% per level would work better, with a cap at either 100% or maybe even 120%. That would give a level 50 summoner full strength defense and a 50% attack bonus.

 

When I read something like this, it totally demotivates me to give people ANYTHING more than they have now, because we have some little pigs like you who always want MUCH more than you give them.

[robotbob]

I don't think a defense penalty quite that severe is warranted. You would need to be summoning 200 to get a summon with it's normal defense. Maybe 2 or 4% per level would work better, with a cap at either 100% or maybe even 120%. That would give a level 50 summoner full strength defense and a 50% attack bonus.

 

I don't think this makes as much sense for stones though, as the skill involved is in making them, not using them. That is the whole point of the stones. Making the stone strength depend on the user's skill level makes as much sense as a fighter's usage of a weapon being dependent on his own manufacturing skill.

 

 

I think he meant a summoner using a stone, the stone summons will have the same effect as a mixed on the fly summons.

Much like the engineering mines. the mines dont hold the damage of the person that made it, but the users engineer level.

 

And yes I think this idea is "Omfg this RoxZ0rsz!~~!~11" and I am happy with any addition to this skill. So I won't nickel and dime the %.

 

It makes summoning in combat, either PvP(pk), or PvE, a real asset to have a 'real summoner' creating the zoo.

(I admit, I speak from self interest and I am powering summons (leveling without regard to cost), and will benefit me greatly

at least in fun factor. So a yeti created from a stone (from a level 10 summoner vs a level 100) isn't a near even match anymore.

 

Edit: @Quesar, your summoning level is (Summoning: 15/15) ?

Edited June 2, 2008 by robotbob

[Wizzy]

I think it is a great idea to give some use to the summoners as opposed to the summon stone clickers.

 

Great idea!

[Aislinn]

Yay, incentive to start leveling again

Glad to see the "real summoners" become valuable.

[Learner]

I think the level based bonuses should be for ever level over the recomended level. Otherwise the high level summons automatically are getting a good bonus to begin with. But, if it is based on the recomended level, the formula used for bonuses might have to be reconsidered.

 

Anything that can help reward people for their hard work and leveling is good.

[Aislinn]

I don't think a defense penalty quite that severe is warranted. You would need to be summoning 200 to get a summon with it's normal defense. Maybe 2 or 4% per level would work better, with a cap at either 100% or maybe even 120%. That would give a level 50 summoner full strength defense and a 50% attack bonus.

Summons currently have 0 defense. What penalty?

And why level 50? Not much incentive since 50 isn't very high.

 

 

I think the level based bonuses should be for ever level over the recomended level. Otherwise the high level summons automatically are getting a good bonus to begin with. But, if it is based on the recomended level, the formula used for bonuses might have to be reconsidered.

 

Anything that can help reward people for their hard work and leveling is good.

Agreed. Didn't think of it but now that I read this, it's too much too fast for high levels, it will only lead to very high bonuses very quickly.

In my opinion, Learner's suggestion would provide incentive to level past the 40's/50's...otherwise there is really no reason to, that I can see offhand.

[Thrice]

n00b summoner here (just started and just got the summoning god); any improvement is better than nothing as I see it. Great idea!

[Blodoks]

If I understand correctly, normal Giant has a/d 145/145 (summ. rec. lvl 55).

 

A lvl 100 summoner will have:

Giant 290/72 (Entropy's idea)

Giant 210/22 (Learner suggestion based on rec lvl)

 

A lvl 80 summoner will have:

Giant 261/58 (Entropy's idea)

Giant 181/12 (based on rec lvl)

 

A lvl 0 summoner will have Giant (stone) 145/0?

 

Is it right?

 

I'm for Entropy's idea

With rec. lvl. like base there will have always that low differences who don't reflect the real effort of top summoners: a lvl 80 has just 25% of my exp.

In the same way, a summoner lvl 80 (it means a year at gypsum) will have a reward:

80 summoning levels worth only 12 def respect a 0 summoning lvl? I think more...

 

edit: added lvl 80 sample... and data correction

Edited June 2, 2008 by Blodoks

[Entropy]

Learner's idea was a little more complex that that, but it wouldn't work for a few reasons:

1. Doesn't work with summoning stones.

2. A high level player might be better off summoning a lower level creature, since that creature will be all 'buffed up', while the high level creature will not be.

 

If I understand correctly, normal Giant has a/d 145/145 (summ. rec. lvl 55).

 

A lvl 100 summoner will have:

Giant 290/50 (Entropy's idea)

 

No, 290/72

[Fedora]

Yeeeeees

 

I was waiting such a change since my first mchim. Ent idea is very good, solving both the problem of stones and of summoning as a fighting skill (mmm...now Learner Combat Skill chart makes more sense).

 

Since my elven heart is black as obsidian, i'd like to see a "crit fail" where the summons strike back to the summoner if he/she is doing something under the recommended/required level in pk...but this is a minor cruelty we can live without.

 

 

EDIT:

at a second thought, Learner point is interesting in terms of incentive to level. Maybe change the % to half the normal if under recommended?

Edited June 2, 2008 by Fedora

[Cycloonx]

If base defense is 0, and it increases with 1-2% each level it stays 0? On what is this 1-2% based? The original defense of the creature?

 

I think this is a good idea, but also better would be that you can summon while fighting (now it is impossible). I think that's a big downside to normal summoning instead of using stones.

[Raz]

Simply wonderful!

(apart from the fact that I might have to show my face in PK now)

[Entropy]

If base defense is 0, and it increases with 1-2% each level it stays 0? On what is this 1-2% based? The original defense of the creature?

Of the original creature's defense, of course.

 

I think this is a good idea, but also better would be that you can summon while fighting (now it is impossible). I think that's a big downside to normal summoning instead of using stones.

There were talks about that in the past, and I said no already. This way someone can keep summoning rats and prevent you from doing anything (until they get their cooldowns back, etc.).

[Dushan]

I think this is a good idea, but also better would be that you can summon while fighting (now it is impossible). I think that's a big downside to normal summoning instead of using stones.

There were talks about that in the past, and I said no already. This way someone can keep summoning rats and prevent you from doing anything (until they get their cooldowns back, etc.).

 

Could it be done that you can only summon creatures from bears and up, while fighting?

[Blodoks]

Could it be done that you can only summon creatures from bears and up, while fighting?

 

Maybe a solution based on mana subtracted.

Bear needs 50 mana: from mana 50 up it could be good

[Cycloonx]

I think this is a good idea, but also better would be that you can summon while fighting (now it is impossible). I think that's a big downside to normal summoning instead of using stones.

There were talks about that in the past, and I said no already. This way someone can keep summoning rats and prevent you from doing anything (until they get their cooldowns back, etc.).

 

It would need a major code change (or maybe not major ) but why couldn't it be that your character doesn't automaticly change to the weakest opponent? Like you get attacked by 6 rats, but you keep hitting your opponent. Ofcourse you could click on a rat to kill it.

[LIGHTspeed]

I'm not much of a summoner... Only level 18 at the moment. However, something like this may give me cause to start leveling again!

 

Here's one idea:

It might be cool to have it increase a LOWER amount for each level, but either endlessly or nearly so... The trick would be finding the correct ratio, so creatures summoned by an extremely high level summoner wouldn't be IMPOSSIBLE to kill, just a LOT harder. Imagine how strong Rabbits and Rats would be when summoned by a level 100 Summoner.

Edited June 2, 2008 by LIGHTspeed

[Learner]

If I understand correctly, normal Giant has a/d 145/145 (summ. rec. lvl 55).

 

A lvl 100 summoner will have:

Giant 290/72 (Entropy's idea)

Giant 210/22 (Learner suggestion based on rec lvl)

 

A lvl 80 summoner will have:

Giant 261/58 (Entropy's idea)

Giant 181/12 (based on rec lvl)

 

A lvl 0 summoner will have Giant (stone) 145/0?

 

Is it right?

 

I'm for Entropy's idea

With rec. lvl. like base there will have always that low differences who don't reflect the real effort of top summoners: a lvl 80 has just 25% of my exp.

In the same way, a summoner lvl 80 (it means a year at gypsum) will have a reward:

80 summoning levels worth only 12 def respect a 0 summoning lvl? I think more...

 

edit: added lvl 80 sample... and data correction

That's why I said the formula might need adjusting to keep things more interesting.

[Ariet]

Me personally love this idea! I don't use summoning all that often, and I would rather die than use summoning stones...and to make it level dependent will put a much bigger motivation to actually work to level up summoning than to be lazy and use stones. Two thumbs up from me. Pr0 idea. As always adjusting will most likely be required, as it usually is in fresh ideas, but I think this is awesome.

[Chosen]

Well be intresting to see how many people start summoning.

[Entropy]

It would need a major code change (or maybe not major ) but why couldn't it be that your character doesn't automaticly change to the weakest opponent? Like you get attacked by 6 rats, but you keep hitting your opponent. Ofcourse you could click on a rat to kill it.

 

Actually, it would take just commenting out a few lines of code, since this is a feature. But it would change the game mechanics a lot, so I am not sure if I want to do it.

[Cycloonx]

It would need a major code change (or maybe not major ) but why couldn't it be that your character doesn't automaticly change to the weakest opponent? Like you get attacked by 6 rats, but you keep hitting your opponent. Ofcourse you could click on a rat to kill it.

 

Actually, it would take just commenting out a few lines of code, since this is a feature. But it would change the game mechanics a lot, so I am not sure if I want to do it.

 

Actually I think it would spice pk up a little more. Now the weakest person takes all damage so weaker people keep out of PK (atleast I did for this reason long ago). This way you could also prevent people from killing dragons while keeping them away from the fighter with rats. I don't think it would harm the game (though for some people it would get harder, for some people it would get easier). I think we really need to be able to summon while fighting to make the summoning skill more important.