Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?

[Troger]

If we are at the naming the forum, the best fitting title would be BigBrother!

[Entropy]

If we are at the naming the forum, the best fitting title would be BigBrother!

 

No, that would be for the anti macroing forum

 

Anyway, we are still deciding on what kind of complaints will be valid for that forum.

 

So far, I came with the following situations:

I talked with this guy and we both agreed to PvP but he PKed me and stole my stuff.

This guy told me that he wants my armor for a screenshot but he didn't give it back to me.

This guy joined our guild, then when we were in a PK arena he quit the guild and PKed some of our members.

I asked this guy to save my bag (DB or not), then he stole it.

 

Things that will NOT be valid:

I went to PK to harvest stuff/explore and this guy PKed me without a warning/reason.

I went in PK during the peace day, and this guy blew me up.

This guy stole my spawn.

I was in the feros cave taking all 6 spawns and this guy came and attacked one of my feroses.

 

Gray zone (not decided yet):

This guy was invisible and he stole my bag. This is not an 'outlawism', but it might be useful to warn people about someone so they can be more careful.

This guy talks shit about me.

[korrode]

Things that will NOT be valid:

...

This guy stole my spawn.

So you're saying that if i'm on a fluffy, just one, i'm not afk-ish, i'm actively training it, re-engaging it whenever it re-spawns, and someone shows up with an Orc Slayer and starts killing the fluffy, i can't post them up for it?

[robotbob]

Things that will NOT be valid:

...

This guy stole my spawn.

So you're saying that if i'm on a fluffy, just one, i'm not afk-ish, i'm actively training it, re-engaging it whenever it re-spawns, and someone shows up with an Orc Slayer and starts killing the fluffy, i can't post them up for it?

 

Truth is korrode in other games what you describe is the 'outlaw' behavior of spawn camping.

So in irony, he should be able to post about you, for camping a spawn and looting it for hours.

(although this is the standard accepted method in EL for leveling attack and defense)

[Entropy]

First, it's not your spawn more than it is his spawn. Of course, it's a matter of common courtesy not to 'steal' a spawn.

But assume you'd post him there, what would you obtain? Warn people that he 'steals' spawns? How would that help anyone?

[korrode]

First, it's not your spawn more than it is his spawn. Of course, it's a matter of common courtesy not to 'steal' a spawn.

But assume you'd post him there, what would you obtain? Warn people that he 'steals' spawns? How would that help anyone?

It would (hopefully) raise their priority as a PK target, certainly with my allies/friends, and potentially with much of the community.

It could also result in them being banned from bots, denied trade, the public spectacle would increase the chances of them being kicked from their guild and it could lose their guild some alliances.

 

 

Truth is korrode in other games what you describe is the 'outlaw' behavior of spawn camping.

So in irony, he should be able to post about you, for camping a spawn and looting it for hours.

(although this is the standard accepted method in EL for leveling attack and defense)

Yes, due to the unique method one gains a/d exp in EL, being per hit and per dodge, along with the static spawns, makes the currently used method of training best for everyone.

[peino]

See, Ent, you can be nice when you want to be. These are very good changes to make. Just a couple of comments:

Anyway, we are still deciding on what kind of complaints will be valid for that forum.

 

So far, I came with the following situations:

I talked with this guy and we both agreed to PvP but he PKed me and stole my stuff.

This guy told me that he wants my armor for a screenshot but he didn't give it back to me.

This guy joined our guild, then when we were in a PK arena he quit the guild and PKed some of our members.

I asked this guy to save my bag (DB or not), then he stole it.

I would add non-PK-related scamming, too. "I traded with this guy and he scammed/tried to scam me"; "This guy scammed/tried to scam our bot."

 

Gray zone (not decided yet):

This guy was invisible and he stole my bag. This is not an 'outlawism', but it might be useful to warn people about someone so they can be more careful.

Personally, I would include this.

 

This guy talks shit about me.

Personally, I would NOT include this. Talking shit about just one person is a personal thing, not outlaw behavior to warn the whole community about. If it gets really, really bad (not just PK trash-talk, but so bad it's a problem even with #ignore), then it would eventually morph into harrassment, which is a rule violation/#abuse situation anyway.

[Entropy]

Yes, due to the unique method one gains a/d exp in EL, being per hit and per dodge, along with the static spawns, makes the currently used method of training best for everyone.

 

But not if they are looking for drops.

[korrode]

See, Ent, you can be nice when you want to be. These are very good changes to make. Just a couple of comments:

...

I would add non-PK-related scamming, too. "I traded with this guy and he scammed/tried to scam me"; "This guy scammed/tried to scam our bot."

I agree.

 

Gray zone (not decided yet):

This guy was invisible and he stole my bag. This is not an 'outlawism', but it might be useful to warn people about someone so they can be more careful.

Personally, I would include this.

I agree... and i dont see what invis has to do with it, if posting this is to be allowed with goal of "warn people about someone so they can be more careful.", then i dont see why a bagjumper needs to be invis to get posted, just allow posting of bagjumpers, imo.

 

This guy talks shit about me.

Personally, I would NOT include this. Talking shit about just one person is a personal thing, not outlaw behavior to warn the whole community about. If it gets really, really bad (not just PK trash-talk, but so bad it's a problem even with #ignore), then it would eventually morph into harrassment, which is a rule violation/#abuse situation anyway.

I agree.

 

--------------------

 

@Entropy

Ok yeah, true if they're after drops...

 

...so, what about my response to your question of why i'd post a spawn serper? any chance of re-considering the decision to not allow those posts?

[masterpiter]

Excuse me mr pvp trainer/peacefull harvester/mercury runner, can i plz gently missclick u plzplzplz?

[Ermabwed]

Personally I agree with the outlaw classification that Peino gave much earlier and another thing I found that forum useful for was the warnings about various behaviors to others as Molime pointed out.

I don't think it's "outlawish" to attack players on PK (other than in the "scamming" scenarios) but it's sure nice to know about it. Doesn't need much in terms of posts either, say

Player_A: Player_B attacked me during PVP <chatlog/screenie>

--------------------

Player_B: You're in neutral/enemy guild, my guild's rules allow/demand that I attack you.

--------------------

Player_C: Thanks for the warning Player_A/making that clear Player_B.

--------------------

*thread locked*

Doesn't make Player_B an "outlaw" for me even if s/he's in an enemy guild by the way. Posts for other scenarios are analogous.

I'd like to be able to read or post information like that on these forums in the future as well, without labeling anyone as pointed out. Of course, some posts will label the poster as outlaw or whiner as is already the case...but Spleenie's been doing a good job at keeping that forum clean I'd say.

[korrode]

I'd like to be able to read or post information like that on these forums in the future as well

Why?

[Ermabwed]

I'd like to be able to read or post information like that on these forums in the future as well

Why?

Why not? Where's the problem with warning others of behavior that one doesn't approve of? I gave an example above which to me (as I stated) doesn't attach any label to anybody but the one we as forum readers personally want to (e.g. one thinks Player_A is a whiner, another thinks he should be more careful around Player_B, personally I'd say it's nice to get the warning but Player_B didn't get an "outlaw" tag from me...). Personally I wouldn't post that kind of stuff but it is a source of information. Some will find certain players behavior posted in outlaws to be perfectly acceptable, some will find certain players to be huge whiners, others will find that players involved in a case handle the matter in a way they can (dis-)approve of etc. Not all players start out in experienced guilds, they'll find the information present in that forum useful to see what can happen and possibly from whom to expect it more than from others.

You mentioned "indiscriminate BroDing" above, others disapprove of different things, use or ignore the information presented. I wouldn't post anybody for attacking me during pvp (got the #set_guild_color command for that) or during hydro runs or whatever but I don't have a problem when people post either, when I see the posted person on a hydro run, I'll sure take extra precautions and thank the guy who posted for the warning.

I don't have statistics but over all I don't think that the cases that fall under the "no outlaw but not so nice" category as attacking PVPers or slaughtering newbies does for me (unless enemy or whatever your guild rules say) make up the majority of posts in "outlaw", so we might as well allow them in the future as well.

[korrode]

Fair enough. Based on what you've said, i assume you support the idea of a completely open 'complaints' forum where anyone can post about anything they feel is 'evil'... my preference is to prevent people from posting about some things, but i would be happy enough with a completely open forum as well. Everyone of course would have to be prepared to hear a lot replies telling them there's nothing wrong with whats been done to them.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Korrode

[Kaddy]

Well yeah lol it was hard to heard 7 pages lol i just missed teh fun <.<

 

IMO, Player Killing (PK) is totally un-outlawish behaviour in PK's coz that maps are created for it eh?

 

If you wanna pvp or something else, do it with the one who you trust, otherwise its totally ur own fault.

 

 

 

P.S plz stop complaining about "onoz, i g0t ki113d bY t3h pr0 wh1l3 i w4s tr41n1ng" thats BS.

 

 

-Kad

[SleepyDragon]

Why restrict the whiner's label to just the ex outlaws forum title? Look through 70% of the topics in general chat, particularly about changes to the game and there is a huge amount of whining going on... 'OMG I don't like this change I'm leaving the game' etc etc.

 

And Korrode, how is using a brod, a legally buyable tool/weapon an outlaw act? By your own arguments about pk being a part of the game, and while some people might not like it they have no right to complain about it, the brod is the same thing. It's buyable from an official game NPC. It's not illegal to use, if you go into a pk area and someone is there with a brod you take the chance of them using it on you, same as if anyone goes into a pk area they run the risk of getting killed or losing stuff. There have been plenty of posts on forums by people saying they will brod anyone they see and that is not then posted into Outlaws/Whiners forum.

 

As a number of people have said, if you go to a pk area you could die and lose stuff, if you go into a pk area you can also get stuff damaged or broken, either by a brod or just in the course of a fight.

[Vanyel]

Fair enough. Based on what you've said, i assume you support the idea of a completely open 'complaints' forum where anyone can post about anything they feel is 'evil'... my preference is to prevent people from posting about some things, but i would be happy enough with a completely open forum as well. Everyone of course would have to be prepared to hear a lot replies telling them there's nothing wrong with whats been done to them.

 

Moreover, people should be prepared to be called whiners.

It just the general attitude of people posting in the former Outlaws forums.

I entered a PK area and didn't even want fighting and XY killed me, stole my stuff and it was rude and evil

The impression given with the post is the person PKing did something terrible and very wrong. Also, it sounds like an attempt of making other people comfort the person posting it. I call it whining.

On the other hand, the very same message could be given with:

I was PKed by XY in area Z

It's just a warning, but... why to warn people about PKers in a PK area?

As for my classification of reasons good enough to post in the 'warnings' forums.

I don't mind people reporting bagjumpers, it's a useful information. On the other hand, I don't think people jumping on hyperbags should be reported. It's difficult enough gather any evidence and... there's a difference between regular bags and hyperspaced ones. Usually, people do not leave their bags on purpose (if they left, they shouldn't be reporting taking it by others), while hyperspace bags are left with free will.

Additionally, people breaking the trust, in any way (i.e. during training, friendly fight, trading, borrowing items, etc.) should be reported. Not for the fact they killed somebody or took the stuff, but because I usually want to know if somebody is or isn't trustworthy and similar reports make the decision easier.

Reporting spawn serpers is a tricky one. I'd think that Korrode's point is valid. It may give a spawn serper higher priority on PK lists. Not sure if the reason might be good enough alone.

People calling others names and harassing them in any form are breaking game rules 1 and 3. If it is extended across the maps/#ig's/bots it's a good reason enough to report in Abuse forums.

PKing without warning, attacking people while they PvP, friendly fight or just fight each other, blowing people up during peaceday in PK areas, attacking harvesters in PK areas, attacking people running errands in PK areas, attacking others while invisible in PK areas, or any other form of PKing that doesn't include any form of breaking trust should never be reported.

[korrode]

And Korrode, how is using a brod, a legally buyable tool/weapon an outlaw act? By your own arguments about pk being a part of the game, and while some people might not like it they have no right to complain about it, the brod is the same thing. It's buyable from an official game NPC. It's not illegal to use, if you go into a pk area and someone is there with a brod you take the chance of them using it on you, same as if anyone goes into a pk area they run the risk of getting killed or losing stuff. There have been plenty of posts on forums by people saying they will brod anyone they see and that is not then posted into Outlaws/Whiners forum.

I certainly see your point, and the logic is undeniable.

Although, it could be argued the BRoD is designed to make oneself an 'Outlaw'. I mean, there is no skill in using the weapon, it even has crap stats ensuring it's not useful for being victorious in combat... it's specifically designed to cause a lot more grief to a player than normal PK combat would. Also, the argument is that there is no need to post about being PK'ed because being PK'ed should be the expected result of going to a PK area. BRoD'ing on the other hand is much less common... not many people do it and the cost of the BRoD itself ensures not every man and his summon will have one, being warned about users of the BRoD is actually useful, u know to go with red when that person's around.

[conavar]

So far, I came with the following situations:

I talked with this guy and we both agreed to PvP but he PKed me and stole my stuff.

This guy told me that he wants my armor for a screenshot but he didn't give it back to me.

This guy joined our guild, then when we were in a PK arena he quit the guild and PKed some of our members.

I asked this guy to save my bag (DB or not), then he stole it.

 

I agree with korrode that "single" spawn serping should be allowed to be posted, simply due to the fact of how EL's a/d leveling method is implemented

 

I say single spawn only because I have always agreed with the unwritten rule/law of players being able to claim one spawn for training/farming, and its just polite to leave them in peace to play the game.

But people who claim 2-4 spawns to themselves are just being greedy and impolite to the rest of the community who might want to train

 

 

I would also suggest that only the accuser and the accused be allowed to post in any given thread ( the rest is normally just flame and spam anyway)

[Sayre]

I would also suggest that only the accuser and the accused be allowed to post in any given thread ( the rest is normally just flame and spam anyway)

What a novel idea.

 

S.

[conavar]

I would also suggest that only the accuser and the accused be allowed to post in any given thread ( the rest is normally just flame and spam anyway)

What a novel idea.

 

S.

 

lol I know .... its a shocker and save you a fortune in brooms

 

 

Edit:

 

and would it be feasible to have the posting rules displayed at the top of the page, as they are in the bans section. At the moment people have to click on them to read .... and how many people can be bothered to do that

Edited May 14, 2008 by conavar

[korrode]

Well, thats near on how it was in the past... and people got quite frustrated with not being able to have their say, myself included...

 

(but ofc now there r a pr0z0r place to post whatever u want! see meh siggy )

[Vanyel]

I would also suggest that only the accuser and the accused be allowed to post in any given thread ( the rest is normally just flame and spam anyway)

 

At some point I tried to propose something like it in Outlaws (back then) thread and got yelled at by 100000 people claiming I'm nazi, taking people's right to speak from them, etc. etc. etc.

Funny the suggestion appears right now.

Labels ftw!

 

<edit>

Well, thats near on how it was in the past... and people got quite frustrated with not being able to have their say, myself included...

One of the people I meant

Actually, I agreed that people should be given an opportunity to voice their reasons, so, some discussion has been allowed.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Vanyel

[molime]

Although, it could be argued the BRoD is designed to make oneself an 'Outlaw'.

And I could say the same thing about PK maps. I don't think anyone would consider PKing someone who isn't looking for a fight a 'nice thing' (well maybe I can think of one exception). Does that matter? No, because IT'S A GAME! People can choose to roleplay the 'bad guy' and be a ruthless PKer. There is nothing wrong with that, and it usually has NOTHING to do with how a person really is, and no comparisons with RL apply. But it's still a choice to roleplay the... well, 'outlaw'. There are people on PK maps as well that do NOT attack everyone. How people want to play is, within the limits of the official game rules, their own choice.

 

I don't think it matters if something is an 'aspect of the game'. If player A wants to post player B for whatever 'not nice thing', player C can decide for himself if he considers B a 'no-good doer' or A a whiner. Depending on the point of view of C, either of them could end up on C's PK list or non-trade list, for example. Why force some official opinion on C instead of giving him the opportunity to decide for himself? If it turns into insulting or flaming, that's where the moderation (that's quite heavy already anyway) comes in.

 

Bagjumping, scamming, spawn serping, BroDing *and* PKing people that didn't want the fight are all part of the game, and are all acts that can't be considered 'nice' no matter how much 'part of the game' they are. I don't think the fact that some PKers don't want the consequences of the choice they made for the 'bad guy role' and cry about THAT should make that people aren't allowed to make others aware of it anymore. I have more respect for people who choose to play the bad guy and just admit it and accept that it can change some things. Make a choice, live with it, you can't have it both ways. Don't want people to warn others because you're a bagjumper? Don't be a bagjumper. Don't want people to warn others because you're an evil ruthless PKer? Don't be an evil ruthless PKer. Let me quote my own guildie:

I'm an outlaw \o/

 

Personally I think it's just hilarious that there's whining from PKers that people might want to warn others for them, but they do want to be able to warn for a spawn serper or Brod user. Both just as much aspects of the game.

 

Either have a forum (wat outlaws was) where everyone can post what they think was 'not nice' and want others to know about, or delete it altogether (which I do not hope). If you start limiting what people are allowed to post there, THEN you start forcing an official opinion about what is outlaw and what's not, what is acceptable and what's not, what is 'part of the game' or not... oh wait, everything is.

[korrode]

@Vanyel

I remember when u were deleting most every post by anyone not involved in the incident (which is why i lol when ppl bitch about Spleen nowdays, Outlaws used to be way stricter)... and i posted a suggestion to make an Outlaws sub-forum for public debating, and then a few days latter u made a post, iirc called "Let's try something new", which you sticky'd and in that post you decided to relax the moderation of Outlaws, provided ppl didn't abuse the lenience.

 

 

EDIT:

Although, it could be argued the BRoD is designed to make oneself an 'Outlaw'.

And I could say the same thing about PK maps.

I disagree, and i in fact countered your exact argument in the rest of my post that you neglected to quote.

 

I disagree with nearly your entire post, Mo.

Much of what you've said has already been repeatedly countered by many people throughout this thread.

 

You are still trying to label general PK'ing as evil. Within the text of your own post you yell "IT'S A GAME!", yet you try and call a big, key feature and aspect of the game "evil".

 

I know it's 8 pages long, but you might want to consider going back and carefully reading every post

 

EDIT2:

Personally I think it's just hilarious that there's whining from PKers that people might want to warn others for them, but they do want to be able to warn for a spawn serper or Brod user. Both just as much aspects of the game.

Firstly, there is no way "spawn serping" and "brod using" are as much an aspect of the game as PK as a whole.

Secondly, I am not whining, and i care about this much less than my spamming of this thread might have you believe.

 

Myself and my guild have specific policies on how to deal with anyone doing anything to us that we dont like, whether the community agrees that an act is "evil" or not. I'm capable of doing a lot more damage and exacting more retribution in-game than i ever can on a forum...

...still, doesn't mean i dont want to see the forum set up well to be as effective and relevant as possible.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Korrode