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Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?

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If you go into a pk map, you are risking the chance of getting pked. I agree completely with Vanyel.

As for me, I pk any red tags, my pk char being in PkG, thats everyone. :)

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Ok, let me put it like this:

Outlaws forum is not only for the really black sheep in the game, it is a warning to others that may find themselves in similar situations.

More specifically, as i was involved in the event leading to the mentioned outlaws post, the person that attacked the pvper has been known to randomly attack pvpers, and perhaps other pvpers may like to be warned to avoid the same fate.

If outlaws isn't meant for that... then I wonder where we can warn other about things like this, because I think it would be usefull

Actually, now that you bring it up, the Outlaws forum is a new addition that admin created out of desperation to at least contain the whining into one spot. The purpose wasn't to promote outlawish behavior, or to imply that the behaviors posted are legitimate complaints or condone the concept of "outlaw" in EL.

 

Edit: Perhaps if it was more accurately named "Whining Forum" people would not have such a misguided notion of "acceptable" PK map behavior. (Funny, I don't see conditions listed in the words Player Killing)

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If you go into a pk map, you are risking the chance of getting pked. I agree completely with Vanyel.

As for me, I pk any red tags, my pk char being in PkG, thats everyone. :pickaxe:

:omg: we have 1 non-red tag remember, Saint. :P And they don't PK.

 

:)

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All PK should be outlawed :P

 

Joki, I think the_grud put it right near the very beginning. When a player enters pk it is their own risk, just as if they were to enter a dragons den. I have been killed whilst training on armed male goblins long ago and while pvping, and did not even consider posting on outaws since it was a risk I/we had taken. I have also killed my pvp partners :P but only by acident, it happens.

 

The problem I think we have are unresolved situations and upset spilling into outaws, for the purpose of threat, revenge and even seeking other people's help. What outlaws should be used for is clear warning of players and what they have been doing. As many Do consider attacking PVPers a dishonerable offence, as well as luring players, breaking PVP agreements etc. those should have a place in outlaws for the portion of the community that consider it 'outlawish'. And what unresolved situations and upset require is some understanding mediators before anything gets to the point of posting in outlaws, which is what being in a guild with experienced players often offers.

 

The lesson to most these people though is not to enter PK with things you aren't prepared to lose (including your pride :P ), even with people you trust. As PK is open to all interference.

 

 

To those that claim other's ideas of outlaw are wrong because the game is designed to allow pk, the game also allows bag jumping and that has long been in the outlaws forum.

 

So my actual opinion is pretty opinionless as usual with regards to outlaws, I think every offence is accepted by some and not by others so most should be posted. The guilds ingame do better at drawing clear lines between right and wrong, Star considers any pk attacking without clear permission and terms (ie PvP) to be against our rules and not accepted. So perhaps the outlaws section EL once knew has changed with the amount of varied guilds now in existence.

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To those that claim other's ideas of outlaw are wrong because the game is designed to allow pk, the game also allows bag jumping and that has long been in the outlaws forum.

Again...same exact issue. You are trying to get a benefit the bag was never intended to provide, but with a known risk. You want the benefit, you take the risk. It amazes me that people think it's their right for safe bag usage as well.

 

Now mind you, of course I would probably complain to my friends if I get pk'd or bag jumped but I would never dream of posting in outlaws or making a public spectacle of it. If I was stupid enough to venture into the map unprotected or leave a bag gettable (and yes we ALL know harvest events will teleport us and could tp us off the bag but we KNOW that ahead of time and still choose to take that risk), then I get what I get.

 

EL was NEVER meant to be an entirely risk free and "safe" game.

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I think that 2 things have to be defined here. First it's the meaning of the term outlaw and for me the definition is something like: if you do any harm to someone without his approval, then you're an outlaw.

So if you attack someone in a PK map without any reason, then consider yourself as an outlaw.

 

The second thing that should be defined is what should be posted in the outlaw forum. I agree that it's quite ridiculous to whine or just to warn people of some guy that killed you while you were crossing a PK map. Well, if you go in a PK map, you have a lot of chances to be attacked so live with it.

Now there are some exceptions that should interest other people like for example the pr0 outlaws that have some stalking techniques to kill people when they just want to PvP. Or bad PvP partners, etc...

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(...)First it's the meaning of the term outlaw and for me the definition is something like: if you do any harm to someone without his approval, then you're an outlaw.(...)

 

Here is where the problem lies. The term "outlaw" describes a person that is violating the law. Player killing on player killing map is a desirable behavior, this is what these maps have been created for.

 

An outlaw act would have to involve some kind of scam, treachery, insidious luring into pk area or breaking mutually agreed rules of fight. However, if person A voluntarily enters pk area (for any purpose) and is killed by person B who is not "related to" person A in any way, this is just a legitimate game action. There is no difference between dying from a monster too hard to handle on the non-pk map and from a pk-er skilled enough on the pk map. In both cases you should either be more cautious or choose to avoid the risk.

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You enter a PK area on your own risk and for certain advantages. You may expect getting killed. Just like it.

Stop complaining "I got PKed in a PK area". It's silly.

I agree with Vanyel here.

 

A PK map is a PK map, you should expect to be PK'd.

 

 

I agree.

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To those that claim other's ideas of outlaw are wrong because the game is designed to allow pk, the game also allows bag jumping and that has long been in the outlaws forum.

I'm not looking to express my personal views on bagjumping and it's validity as 'outlaw-ish', but i would like to make a point that the ability to bagjump is the result of game design, not game design itself (like PK is). Note that throughout information sections of the EL site like the Skills Overview section and even under "Things to do:" on the Main page, fighting other players is often mentioned, yet no where do i see "Bagjumping" as an intended game skill or feature.

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On the other hand, if you are a PvPer, and you are engaged in a friendly duel with someone, and get ambushed by someone interfering in the contest, I consider that an act of outlawry. It's just someone attempting a cheap shot, and being quite rude.

This is what the map was made for. It is a game design for certain designated areas to enable this style of gameplay. How is it outlawry to utilize it?

PvP'ers gain a huge experience advantage in exchange for risk. Game design again. Claiming "no fair, you are an outlaw!!!" to try to negate the known intended risk for the advantage they are getting seems to be a way to get around the game design to me, I have no sympathies for THAT.

 

While the point you make is well taken, the concept of "outlawry" in and of itself isn't particularly a big deal.. It depends on what one *does*, and the reputation that one earns. Certainly, the Outlaws forum was put forth by the Mods to confine all the whining to one place.. I can accept that, and it seems a good idea. The concept behind it, from my understanding, however, is to serve as place of warning to concerned players about others who, while perhaps not violating the *game* rules, violate the "social" rules of what is considered "acceptable behavior".

 

Experience issues aside, from an "acceptable behavior" standpoint, if one makes a habit of "jumping in" during duels, and ganking already weakened opponents just to gain PK points, that's clearly a dishonorable sort of behavior, and bound to be considered "unacceptable" to a certain segment of the playerbase.

 

Which is *exactly* what outlawry is.. the violation of a social standard. Just because the *game* allows it, doesn't necessarily mean its socially "ok". Confusing the two standards doesn't nullify the argument.

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Just to give a taste of the sort of things that have been popping up in Outlaws recently:

 

- Player A walks around PK and gets killed without warning by Player B

NOT OUTLAW. Welcome to PK.

- Player A and Player B agree to pvp and get killed by Player C who wades in.

ASSUMING that A and B just picked a random place to PvP, and C just randomly came along and jumped them, then this is NOT OUTLAW. Welcome to PK.

- Player A and Player B agree to pvp with certain equipment and Player B pulls out non-agreed to equipment

OUTLAW because of the agreement.

- Player A and Player B agree to a friendly fight and Player C from Player B's guild comes in and kills Player A

OUTLAW because of the agreement.

- Player A lures Player B into PK and kills them

OUTLAW because it involves lying. If Player B is a newbie, then it is also a game rule violation. #abuse.

- Player A lies to Player B about their stats and kills them

OUTLAW because of the lie, but less so, because Player B is stupid to rely on just what Player A tells him. Most PKers keep their stats secret, but in my opinion, that means you can't trust them, and should never enter PvP/FF with them. If someone wants to PvP/FF, let them turn privacy off for a few minutes and update their stats (#save) so you can look them up. If they don't, then just say no. But liars are still outlaws.

- Player A and B are friendly fighting, Player C agrees not to intervene, then does.

OUTLAW, because of the agreement.

- Player A and B are friendly fighting and B kills A and doesn't return stuff after agreeing to do so.

OUTLAW, because of the agreement.

- Player A walks around an area that is PK and is unaware of it and gets killed without a warning by Player B (thy Vanyel)

NOT OUTLAW. Welcome to PK.

 

There is generally some disagreement as to whether any or all of these actions constitute outlawry. I am sure there are more i haven't thought of too.

 

S.

Basically, in my opinion, two things make an outlaw in PK:

 

1- You lie to set up your target for an easy kill.

 

2- You break an agreement.

 

It doesn't matter if the victim was stupid to believe/trust you. You do these things, you are outlaw -- not because you are a PKer, but because you are a liar. Period. As long as you don't do those things, you can attack at will in PK, and anyone who calls you outlaw for it, is a fool, imo.

 

As for PKers who don't like being posted in Outlaws, if you don't want to be called outlaw for your PK, then don't do those two things. Don't lie. Don't make agreements and then break them. Easy. Done.

 

On the other hand, if you WANT to do those two things because you think they are fun, then go for it -- and enjoy your outlaw reputation as well. Own it, embrace it. I don't get why some (certain) PKers give a crap about being called "outlaw" anyway. Surely, if they cared what others thought of them, they wouldn't go around lying and breaking agreements in the first place, right? There are a few people in EL, who I wonder why they bother to read the Outlaw forum at all.

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Which is *exactly* what outlawry is.. the violation of a social standard. Just because the *game* allows it, doesn't necessarily mean its socially "ok". Confusing the two standards doesn't nullify the argument.

The specific action in question, in the title of this thread ("Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?"), doesn't violate my personal standards, to me, people being attacked in PK areas is exactly what should be happening.

So, who does everyone think should decide what is a violation of social standard?

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I do not like PvP and PK'ing and I avoid PK-maps as much as possible, but if you enter a PK-map or area, you do so at your own risk and become a lawful target for anyone, so no, someone killing you there is not an outlaw, unless he/she/they broke some agreement between you and them, or lured you there under false pretences.

 

Another thing is PK-honour: Interfering in a fight I consider dishonourable behaviour. The honourable thing is to let the combatants finish, and give the survivor time to either heal or flee.

 

In PvP arenas, I think there should be some sort of duel code, so that only agreed upon fights occur.

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Which is *exactly* what outlawry is.. the violation of a social standard. Just because the *game* allows it, doesn't necessarily mean its socially "ok". Confusing the two standards doesn't nullify the argument.
I disagree with this statement both with your definition of outlaw and with your statement I am confusing the two standards :P

 

1 results for: outlaw
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This 
out·law	 Audio Help   [out-law] Pronunciation Key 
–noun 
1.	a lawless person or habitual criminal, esp. one who is a fugitive from the law. 
2.	a person, group, or thing excluded from the benefits and protection of the law. 
3.	a person under sentence of outlawry. 
4.	a person who refuses to be governed by the established rules or practices of any group; rebel; nonconformist: one of the outlaws of country music. 
5.	Chiefly Western U.S. 	a.	a horse that cannot be broken; a mean, intractable horse. 
b.	any rogue animal. 


–verb (used with object) 
6.	to make unlawful or illegal: The Eighteenth Amendment outlawed the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating beverages in the U.S. 
7.	to deprive of thebenefits and protection of the law: Members of guerrilla bands who refused to surrender were outlawed. 
8.	to prohibit: to outlaw smoking in a theater. 
9.	to remove from legal jurisdiction; deprive of legal force. 

–adjective 10.	of, pertaining to, or characteristic of an outlaw.

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(...)First it's the meaning of the term outlaw and for me the definition is something like: if you do any harm to someone without his approval, then you're an outlaw.(...)

 

Here is where the problem lies. The term "outlaw" describes a person that is violating the law. Player killing on player killing map is a desirable behavior, this is what these maps have been created for.

Which is *exactly* what outlawry is.. the violation of a social standard. Just because the *game* allows it, doesn't necessarily mean its socially "ok". Confusing the two standards doesn't nullify the argument.

What he said.

 

Cruella (and many other people), I think you are confusing game rules and community rules.

 

I'll make a little comparison with real life.

Technically, in RL, guns are made to kill other people. So technically, you can buy a gun and go kill your neighbor. But there are laws that have been decided by the society and that forbid murders.

 

Well, in the game, it's exactly the same thing. You can kill someone in a PK map, nothing prevents you for doing so. But if you do so, you become an outlaw, that's all.

 

In short terms:

Game rules/possibilities = RL physics laws

Community rules = RL society laws (note here that these laws can be different between countries and like kailo pointed out, it's the same here but with guilds)

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(...)First it's the meaning of the term outlaw and for me the definition is something like: if you do any harm to someone without his approval, then you're an outlaw.(...)

Well, firstly, the definition provided by Aislinn shows this to be incorrect.

 

Cruella (and many other people), I think you are confusing game rules and community rules.

I'm not confusing anything... i think what everyone needs to start debating is what exactly are the community rules, and who decides them (and perhaps if they need to exist at all).

 

I'll make a little comparison with real life.

Technically, in RL, guns are made to kill other people. So technically, you can buy a gun and go kill your neighbor. But there are laws that have been decided by the society and that forbid murders.

 

Well, in the game, it's exactly the same thing. You can kill someone in a PK map, nothing prevents you for doing so. But if you do so, you become an outlaw, that's all.

It's not the same thing, because as you said, it's a game.

I believe this to be a more appropriate RL equivalent to EL PK:

 

In RL, paintball guns are made to shoot balls of paint at other people in the paint ball battle ground.

Anyone on the paint ball battle ground has chosen to be there, knowing the risks.

You don't ask your opponent(s) if it's ok to shoot. You dont let 2 others finish their battle before engaging one/both of them.

This is perfectly legal.

Edited by Korrode

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My views on this topic have changed over time. With regard to nonconsensual killing, as shmurk put it, you are "agreeing" to be killed anytime you enter a PK map unless you have an "agreement" to the contrary with a pvp partner. With regard to 3rd party interference with a FF or 1v1 or pvp, the 3rd party was not part of the agreement. I find it difficult to consider that 3rd party guilty of some crime if they didn't agree to leave you alone.

 

That being said, LION still has rules restricting PK opportunities, and most revolve around killing the defenseless because there is no challenge or honor in killing the defenseless. As Chosen pointed out, however, this line is difficult to determine. Many naked people on pk maps are now: 1) carrying large summon (stones or ings); 2) catching dis's; 3) carrying landmines and caltrops; 4) carrying armor/weapons in inv. There are some naked people I attack on sight because I know they pose a threat if I get involved in a fight with someone else, and I am leaning toward a more liberal view of killing these "defenseless" people because it is getting more difficult to figure out which ones are which.

 

The other exception to this "defenseless" rule is when n00bs stand in a pk area behind their stronger guildies for all of the reason above and because they are too cowardly to fight for themselves. Some guilds are well known for their engage and dis to my guildie tactic--kill them all as many times as you can.

 

Can we have a poll on each type of "outlaw" behavior to get a reading on the community sentiment?

Edited by Ozmondius

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To those that claim other's ideas of outlaw are wrong because the game is designed to allow pk, the game also allows bag jumping and that has long been in the outlaws forum.

I'm not looking to express my personal views on bagjumping and it's validity as 'outlaw-ish', but i would like to make a point that the ability to bagjump is the result of game design, not game design itself (like PK is). Note that throughout information sections of the EL site like the Skills Overview section and even under "Things to do:" on the Main page, fighting other players is often mentioned, yet no where do i see "Bagjumping" as an intended game skill or feature.

 

Eek so many new posts :P I know that bag jumping isn't mentioned, but I have read numerous times across the forums from appropriate people that bags were designed with the same risk purposefully involved. It is only player morals that say it is stealing to take that which is in a bag that is not your own. I know and respect you and your thoughtful posts, and I do ofcourse understand that people PKing should not be likened to bag-jumping. But the official game-designers stance is that they are both deliberately designed risks, so I'm saying any opinion about them rests with the players. And as many have said, the majority of players accept that going to PK means being PKed. I wouldn't have it any other way, it would be a waste of the PK side of the game if no-one were allowed to Pk eachother.

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Community rule cannot violate game rule. Game rule is and should always stayy superior.

 

Game rule says pk map serves for a purpose of player killing.

 

By killing someone on the pk map you become a pk'er, not outlaw.

 

In order to become an outlaw, you have to misbehave - as nicely analized step by step by Peino above.

 

People who find being legitimately killed on the pk map being outlawish act, should rather choose the games where tthere is a clear distinction between pk and non-pk servers.

 

Your RL example is flawed btw ;-) Guns are made to give a bullet velocity, that's it. Do not confuse the tool with the job.

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Make your own set of rules. If you think its OK to kick a member from your guild while he is on a pk map and then kill him, just do it.

Some others may not like what you just did but with every action there are consequences.

 

ProH (PK-server)

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Every time I go into a pk map, for whatever reason, I expect to die. Doesnt matter if I am pvping or going to fight as a would-be pker, I know I will be doing Teh Walk at some point.

 

The only issue in the whole thing I think should constitute an Outlaw act is when someone you have gotten to know/trust, pk's you when you have agreed to pvp, and takes your stuff...thats a betrayal of your trust/friendship with that person! Even then, you should be aware its a possibility, and go prepared for any eventuality.

 

I know many people ingame, and most of the ones I know ..I would expect to pk my arse if they caught me in KF.

 

Hell, thats what makes it worth GOING!

 

 

analized step by step by Peino above

 

:P

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First off I will start by giving my personel views on what the actual terms mean to me :

 

PvP

 

This is combat mostly done on safe guild maps without a weapon for the sole purpose of getting as much xp as you can for yourself and your parnter.

 

FF (Friendly fight )

 

This to me is the most like dueling EL has, a 1v1 fight where players dont use special swords/offensive magic/summons/BODs etc, and at the first diss the fight is over

 

1v1

 

This normally happens after a lot of trash talking/crap, where one player asks the other to put his money where his mouth is, its a fight to the death using all possible PK items.

 

 

PK

 

This is anything goes combat, you do your best to kill your enemies, wether thats using summons/2,3,4 vs 1/ICBMs/Celion Dion music etc etc

 

 

Outlaw Acts imo

 

Intentionally killing you PvP partner (drawing a sword, harm etc )

 

 

And to me that is the only outlaw act, everything else falls under the catagory of " DONT TRUST ANYONE"

Even if Im involved in a FF I always keep MI cast and prepared for the fight to turn nasty.

 

Most outlaw posts I have seen about PK is when a 3rd party becomes involved : killing PvPs,FF etc, well to be honest you have to take the into consideration when you are arranging to PvP/FF.

If you are worried about 3rd party do it somewhere out the way or on a guild map

 

 

 

There are Things I see as morally wrong and I personally try to avoid: killing naked noobs, attacking PvP's (even if they are redtagged), interfering with announced FF/1v1.

But that is just my weird sense of honour and is not an outlaw act if people decide to do those things.

 

What most of us learn the hard way is : When entering a PK map dont trust anyone and be prepared for anything

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Well I'll not continue to debate anymore about the "outlaw" title because I think it's useless...

 

However, I just want to add something. For me the "outlaw" term here is not pejorative because it's a game (yeah I agree on that Korrode :P) and we just all play a role (good or bad) in this synthetic world. And as far as I know, killing people outside of a war context is a bad thing so don't be offended if someone is calling you an outlaw because you killed him without any reason in a PK map. You decided to do it so just assume it! :P

And I think there are also other ways to PK without being declared as an outlaw. For example, people who fight outlaws and kill them are not outlaws themselves AFAIK. :P

 

EDIT: typos

Edited by Schmurk

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I think this is everyones own oppinion... i for example dont attack merc harvesters or other ppl that dont seem

like dropping me something or giving me pki if i would try. of course it always depends on who they are, some

ppl i wouldnt think about long to attack them, no matter what they are doing or how weak they are or

even how strong they are. but there arent much out there of those,

at least not anymore.

 

If someone announces an FF i wouldnt attack except for the reasons pointed out above, same with pvp.

 

But anyways, with PvP i think, if BOTH declared that they pvp and then someone of em tricks the other by

pulling a sword killing the other one is i think indeed outlawish, its a mean trick using the trust of the other

person for your advantage. Its different if an third person comes into the game, that has nothing to do with both

of the PvPers and kills either both or just one because the other one escaped, its not outlawish its just the pk nature.

 

FF.... FFs can be defined in many ways, team FF, 1v1 FF, with or without weapons, with or without magic. So i wouldnt

see anything outlawish here no matter what happens because basically you just ask the other person for a pk fight

in this case. you gotta deal with the risk yourself. so nothing that involves an FF should be put into Outlaw Forum imho.

 

After all like several ppl said allready, pk is pk, you enter an playerkilling map, so you accept the risk to be killed, for

whatever reasons.

 

just my few cents

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Ok, I was always looking from the point of view that acceptable behaviour was one's own opinions (or groups opinion). If a line has to be drawn, people that play the PK side of the game shouldn't be punished for it. That is to say in the community as a whole, it should not be outlawed to be involved in PKing, to take deathbags won in PK or even attack PvPers FFers. However, guilds should guard their individual stance closely. Even lieing is a tactic of deception that pertains to PK, but making a series of PK agreements only to break them does sound like it requires action and global caution.

 

The varied range of what people think the outlaw forum's purpose is doees blur what people's actual opinions are to these things. And since outlaws is essentially a whiner's forum (according to forum admin) is there actually any policing these days (given the definitions of outlaw) that being inside the 'law' actually gives us the benefit of? It affects guild recruitment in some cases, but with all the new guilds around do even the majority use outlaws in this way or care about the same standards? If we're all just a bunch of individuals making our own opinion about how other people act, shouldn't all people be allowed to complain about what they want to, and let the rest make their own opinion?

Edited by kailomonkey

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