Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?

[conavar]

I would also suggest that only the accuser and the accused be allowed to post in any given thread ( the rest is normally just flame and spam anyway)

 

At some point I tried to propose something like it in Outlaws (back then) thread and got yelled at by 100000 people claiming I'm nazi, taking people's right to speak from them, etc. etc. etc.

 

Well as people have said the Outlaws forum is about Warning others about another players behaviour, so if the reasons to post are tightened up then IMO there is no need for anyone else to air there views on the matter.

 

Just the accuser and the accused (to defend him/her self ) no need for 10 posts of " omgz yoo whiner " or " ya n00b ya got scammed "

 

but either way im not fussed, I have never and never will post anyone in outlaws. I sort problems out either via pm/ig or PK

 

 

Personally I think it's just hilarious that there's whining from PKers that people might want to warn others for them, but they do want to be able to warn for a spawn serper or Brod user. Both just as much aspects of the game.

 

Trouble is (and my issue with the whole matter) players shouldnt need to be warned about PKers . You are warned everytime you enter a PK map ... and seriously its a bit of a no brainer that a PKer might attack you.

Edited May 14, 2008 by conavar

[2coolfool]

I don't think it matters if something is an 'aspect of the game'. If player A wants to post player B for whatever 'not nice thing', player C can decide for himself if he considers B a 'no-good doer' or A a whiner.

I've got to agree with this, people have widely varying opinions about what's outlawish and what's not.. (we have people from all around the world here). Why not let people post what they think is outlawish and let others decide? the whole point of outlaw forums was for community rules, anyway. The post is just to inform others about someone's behaviour, being posted on outlaws is not a death sentence or something.

 

As long as they do not violate game rules and the posts do not get too much out of control (cue flames); I don't see any problem in someone posting people on outlaws for behaviour that he considers wrong. Even for PKing, that is. Personally I don't think there is anything bad about PKing people, but if others have a different opinion (and it seems there are many) and do not like being attacked randomly; then I don't see why they can't warn each other. Does it really matter to a PKer if he posted on outlaws? Isn't that the whole point of roleplaying an evil PKer?

[korrode]

then I don't see why they can't warn each other.

Because they are spamming.

There's already a warning, in red text when you approach/enter a PK map... repeating this warning again on the forums is... well... as i said, just spam. It should be deleted.

 

Isn't that the whole point of roleplaying an evil PKer?

I dont role-play an evil pk'er, i dont roleplay at all.

I see EL as i see an RTS (and EL does have many RTS elements), there is a combat system of which learning and becoming skillful at can lead me to victory over the other players of the game.

There is no "evil", There is no "good", there is no "roleplay".

Edited May 14, 2008 by Korrode

[hussam]

The only thing "not so nice" I have seen is when person A asked person B to help him locate something (maybe something to harvest or whatever) in another map and tricked person B into stepping into a training arena and then killed player B without telling even telling him a training arena was is that map.

Edited May 14, 2008 by hussam

[2coolfool]

Because they are spamming.

There's already a warning, in red text when you approach/enter a PK map... repeating this warning again on the forums is... well... as i said, just spam. It should be deleted.

What one person considers spam; another considers a helpful warning For example, when i go on hydro runs I often meet people in the PK area.. most don't attack, but some will chase after me and some just try to pk once. What's the harm in posting the names of the people who indiscriminately PK, as a warning so that you can be extra careful around them? I'd diss/tele if I saw TooMass(no offense ) but i'd try to get past if I saw some PKer XYZ; why not try my luck? If I did see his name on outlaws though; I'd be extra careful and that might save me a rostogol stone. I do expect to be attacked and I am careful; but a hint to be extra careful isn't bad

I dont role-play an evil pk'er, i dont roleplay at all.

I see EL as i see an RTS (and EL does have many RTS elements), there is a combat system of which learning and becoming skillful at can lead me to victory over the other players of the game.

There is no "evil", There is no "good", there is no "roleplay".

Eternal Lands is a FREE MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role playing game)

The definitions of evil and good are highly subjective, imo that's why outlaws forum is there: you can post to inform others who agree with your definitions. If you think you've been posted as an outlaw wrongly; it's just a difference of opinion, no one is "right" or "wrong" here. For the roleplaying bit.. you think combat is a skilful way of gaining victory over others (which i do as well), others might think that you're being evil since you're not peaceful. Not trying to endorse any opinions here, I think both are valid Live, and let live?

[molime]

EDIT:

Although, it could be argued the BRoD is designed to make oneself an 'Outlaw'.

And I could say the same thing about PK maps.

I disagree, and i in fact countered your exact argument in the rest of my post that you neglected to quote.

 

No, you didn't *counter* it, you just posted a different opinion than mine. The fact that you don't share my opinion on this issue doesn't mean you've proven me wrong.

 

I disagree with nearly your entire post, Mo.

Much of what you've said has already been repeatedly countered by many people throughout this thread.

 

You are still trying to label general PK'ing as evil. Within the text of your own post you yell "IT'S A GAME!", yet you try and call a big, key feature and aspect of the game "evil".

Imo you're the one generalizing PKing more than I do, because I do see a difference between PKers and the way PK can be done. Not every PKer Pks in the same way. Some only attack enemies for example, some don't attack PvP trainers, some everything that moves. And I don't see all 'ways to PK' as 'evil', but in general I'm not *trying* to label PK as evil, I see certain ways to PK as one of the 'evil roles' someone can choose, EL being a roleplaying game - that's my opinion about it. And again: the fact that not everyone shares that opinion, does not mean that it's 'wrong'.

 

I just don't get what is so unacceptable about being thought of as 'evil' if that's the role you choose yourself. Why are you so desperately trying to be seen as the good guy wanting to kill people? Choose your role and stand behind your choice!

 

I know it's 8 pages long, but you might want to consider going back and carefully reading every post

... I seriously more wonder if you've actually read what *I* said.

 

Personally I think it's just hilarious that there's whining from PKers that people might want to warn others for them, but they do want to be able to warn for a spawn serper or Brod user. Both just as much aspects of the game.

Firstly, there is no way "spawn serping" and "brod using" are as much an aspect of the game as PK as a whole.

 

Now we get to the next thing that has to be decided? We have to decide what is more an aspect of the game? It's all there... the fact you like 1 aspect and don't like another, doesn't make those other aspects less part of the game, really. Your opinion doesn't necessarily make fact.

 

Myself and my guild have specific policies on how to deal with anyone doing anything to us that we dont like, whether the community agrees that an act is "evil" or not.

Exactly... and why wouldn't others be allowed that? This is exactly what I want: for everyone being able to make up their own minds about actions. It's not as if the fact someone gets posted on Outlaws automatically means I can't trade with him anymore, or have to PK him. That's up to me, depending on what MY opinion is about that situation. I can decide for myself what to me is outlaw behaviour or not.

 

Addition after reading your reply to 2coolfool: if you don't see EL as a roleplaying game, and certain actions as 'good' or 'evil' in that sense, I guess we are talking about very different things and that makes discussing it hard . I think you should realize though, that others DO see it like that, and don't take that 'evil' label so serious then.

 

And yes, there is a warning on PK maps, and people can expect to be PKed. That doesn't mean everyone in there always will attack everyone on sight though and it can just be good to know who will. Similar: if you die and lose a bag, or hit a nexus and fly off a bag, you can expect to lose your stuff. Part of the game. Still, not everyone will take that bag - and it can just be good to know who will.

[korrode]

Because they are spamming.There's already a warning, in red text when you approach/enter a PK map... repeating this warning again on the forums is... well... as i said, just spam. It should be deleted.

What one person considers spam; another considers a helpful warning For example, when i go on hydro runs I often meet people in the PK area.. most don't attack, but some will chase after me and some just try to pk once. What's the harm in posting the names of the people who indiscriminately PK, as a warning so that you can be extra careful around them? I'd diss/tele if I saw TooMass(no offense ) but i'd try to get past if I saw some PKer XYZ; why not try my luck? If I did see his name on outlaws though; I'd be extra careful and that might save me a rostogol stone. I do expect to be attacked and I am careful; but a hint to be extra careful isn't bad

IMO that's overly pedantic, i'd say the amount of detail you had to go into to validate it alone shows it's overly pedantic.

 

 

I dont role-play an evil pk'er, i dont roleplay at all.

I see EL as i see an RTS (and EL does have many RTS elements), there is a combat system of which learning and becoming skillful at can lead me to victory over the other players of the game.

There is no "evil", There is no "good", there is no "roleplay".

Eternal Lands is a FREE MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role playing game)

oh ya, a roleplaying game... with less posts in the "Roleplay" section of the forums than there is in the "Bots" section... and check this, i just joined chan 5 (the roleplay channel) and di #ci:

You are on channel #5, and there are currently 1 players on this channel.

 

 

The definitions of evil and good are highly subjective, imo that's why outlaws forum is there: you can post to inform others who agree with your definitions. If you think you've been posted as an outlaw wrongly; it's just a difference of opinion, no one is "right" or "wrong" here.

If no one is right or wrong, then at least the name "Outlaws" needs to change (which it is), because as already established by the posting of the definition of the word "Outlaw" earlier in this thread, an Outlaw is a "lawless person or habitual criminal, esp. one who is a fugitive from the law.".

 

Considering this, i've even already changed the title of that section on the unofficial forums to "Community Complaints"... as i said, i'd find it acceptable enough if the section was designated a place where anyone can post anything at all they think is "evil/bad/whatever", but it least has to be made clear that no one posted is necessarily an "Outlaw", and that it's all just personal opinion.

[Aislinn]

Exactly... and why wouldn't others be allowed that? This is exactly what I want: for everyone being able to make up their own minds about actions. It's not as if the fact someone gets posted on Outlaws automatically means I can't trade with him anymore, or have to PK him. That's up to me, depending on what MY opinion is about that situation. I can decide for myself what to me is outlaw behaviour or not.

But don't you see? Once that person is listed there as an outlaw or whatever we pick for the new name, that is what will stick in people's heads. Not he was found "guilty" or "innocent" or people had various opinions...What will linger as the memory is "Oh yeah... I saw molime posted in that Community Issues" thread..." == BAD for you no matter what the outcome. Equals "something must be wrong with them if somebody thought they should post them". It equals general "trouble" of some sort. That is what will happen, just like now.

 

I don't think it's fair to people to get slandered libeled that way, no matter how you all try to pretty it up. (And yes I do mean libeled not labeled, although I guess you cuold say both in this case )

 

 

(Edit: I have to go, school run, so won't be able to respond for 30 minutes or so)

 

If you start limiting what people are allowed to post there, THEN you start forcing an official opinion about what is outlaw and what's not, what is acceptable and what's not, what is 'part of the game' or not... oh wait, everything is.

Judgement is not an official part of the game. Some players are trying to force it in by making "community standards" that the community actually doesn't all agree to. Players are trying to force judgement in by throwing "bad do-ers" out into the public arena in the hopes of being agreed with and making a public spectacle of the person. Why else post in the first place unless you are looking for a problem? Claiming it is in the name of "warning people" is just trying to find a way to pretty it up and justify it. Again...I see nothing in the game design for this. This is all the players doing in trying to force THEIR "standards" upon others. This is not "part of the game". Please at least call it what it is.

 

And really, I noticed before this concept you present is all well and good when it's "somebody else". When you or your guildmates are the ones being debated about, you don't seem to like it so much or think it is fair.

[Lorlen]

Didn't bother to read 8 pages of what I assume will be repititions of what had been said many times before.

 

It is a PK map, you get a warning. You should go in expecting to die, whether you are pvping or properly pking, it doesn't matter. Attacking someone on a map where they can be attacked is not an outlaw act. Only when you deliberately mislead them onto the map is it one, such as asking someone to pvp and then pulling out a sword.

 

In the days when PK was good, fun and constantly populated there were very few threads about this kind of thing, if i remember correctly. Everyone knew that they would get attacked in a PK map. The only way to pvp safely was to be a friend of CO, who had the only guildmap and guardbot widely known at that time, or to find a place where very few people passed through. Other than that, if you got attacked, you accepted it and tried to get them back. You didn't waste your time whining on the forums about someone who attacked you in a PK map.

 

Outlaws forums should be for people who intentionally mislead others into pk and then attack them, or for other things such as scamming etc.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Lorlen

[2coolfool]

IMO that's overly pedantic, i'd say the amount of detail you had to go into to validate it alone shows it's overly pedantic.

now that I read it again, after spending some more time, i've got to agree just wanted to show that it's not entirely wrong to warn others about PKers.

 

oh ya, a roleplaying game... with less posts in the "Roleplay" section of the forums than there is in the "Bots" section... and check this, i just joined chan 5 (the roleplay channel) and di #ci:

You are on channel #5, and there are currently 1 players on this channel.

I didn't mean you have to explicitly roleplay. All the stuff you do, decisions to PK, harving, mixing, helping others, etc. all contribute to how others perceive your character. Similarly, your character is classed as an "evil" PKer by some just because you PK. You don't have state that you're a PKer on channel 5; people will see it from your actions. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Considering this, i've even already changed the title of that section on the unofficial forums to "Community Complaints"...

I've got to agree here, makes it much more neutral It's just a difference of opinion, as these show:

 

Scenario A: Person A pk's another person B. B is slightly annoyed and so he posts on the forum to warn others. Some agree and thank him for the warning, and become wary of A in PK. Others just post that PKing is a part of the game and there is nothing wrong. No one changes his/her opinions, case closed.

 

Scenario B: Person C uses a BroD on person D. D is annoyed as well, and posts on forum to warm others. Some people thank him for the warning and become wary of C in PK. Others post that the BroD is just a part of the game and there's nothing wrong. No one changes his/her opinions, case closed.

 

Those who needed the warning took it and are happy. Those who didn't need it aren't affected and can form the opinion they want. Since "right" and "wrong" are so subjective and no one likes to be called a whiner, renaming the forum makes sense.

[Inglor]

Either have a forum (wat outlaws was) where everyone can post what they think was 'not nice' and want others to know about, or delete it altogether (which I do not hope). If you start limiting what people are allowed to post there, THEN you start forcing an official opinion about what is outlaw and what's not, what is acceptable and what's not, what is 'part of the game' or not... oh wait, everything is.

 

Thanks Molime for this comment. Is there now an official definition of what an outlaw is?

 

The whole purpose of posting it in the first place is to see what others opinions are on the subject and to warn others about the player. Spawn serping, attacking pvpers, attacking FF, using BRODs are against the rules of many guilds for some reason. Seems to me that this behavior should be posted in the outlaws section in my opinion. This is a role playing game. If someone wants to play the role of an Outlaw then let them have the role but the person that was the victum should have the option of posting it and with out being called a whiner officialy by the game. Perhaps Outlaw behavior would now fit better in the General Chat Forums.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Inglor

[conavar]

And yes, there is a warning on PK maps, and people can expect to be PKed. That doesn't mean everyone in there always will attack everyone on sight though and it can just be good to know who will.

 

 

I wonder how many PKer's are reading this thread and are like " Fook it, If I going to be posted on Outlaws just because someone is pissed they died, then I might as well make it worthwhile and attack anything that moves"

 

If people want to brand PK or getting attacked without warning as Outlawish ( not you Molime ) then dont be surprised if more PKer's act like outlaws to the detriment of the peaceniks who want to be able to wander around PK with no risk .

 

 

Note: I PK from time to time and the aspect of PK means I attack people , so please if it makes anyone feel better, you are welcome to Pre-post me on Outlaws as a Warning to others ( If the map message and me stood there in full armour and a big pointy sword arnt enough hints for people )

[jowwow]

then I don't see why they can't warn each other.

Because they are spamming.

There's already a warning, in red text when you approach/enter a PK map... repeating this warning again on the forums is... well... as i said, just spam. It should be deleted.

You get an even clearer warning about BroD'ing when you see a branch in the hand of your opponent

So, by your own logic, repeating that "so and so" is a Brod'er "is... well..., just spam"

[Sophee]

Wow I'm amazed...Whiners Forum?? Yea I do agree that lately many people posted on outlaws forum without any real good reason or evidence to "label" someone as an outlaw but...what about those who got scammed or lured or misguided by "evil" people and just posted to warn others? Do you really have to label those too as whiners? I do wanna know about these scammers, I wanna read what they did and then let me decide it myself if I consider them as outlaw or not. Calling people, who post there with reason, whiners is very disrespectful and I think it makes a bad image about the creators and moderators of this game that they treat their players like this... Even if they whine about minor things, why is it so bad, why is it an issue, why can't you let them whine if that makes them happy. Every accused person has the right and opportunity to protect itself and most people have enough brain to decide who deserves the real outlaw label and who was just accused of nothing. And anyways that forum already has 2 very strict moderators who keep closing threads which is a kind of judgement (closing= your post worth nothing), so I don't see what is this debate about. Yea killing pkers, pvpers and ffers are not really outlawish in most cases but there can be cases when they are, it all depends on the circumstances so I don't think you can make rules when people can post and when not. Especially because, as we can see from the amount and variety of replies, everybody has his/her own opinion of what is outlawry. So this debate will never end, you can't force people to all think the same what is right and what is wrong, so either keep outlaws forum as it was, or delete it.

[robotbob]

oh ya, a roleplaying game... with less posts in the "Roleplay" section of the forums than there is in the "Bots" section... and check this, i just joined chan 5 (the roleplay channel) and di #ci:

You are on channel #5, and there are currently 1 players on this channel.

I didn't mean you have to explicitly roleplay. All the stuff you do, decisions to PK, harving, mixing, helping others, etc. all contribute to how others perceive your character. Similarly, your character is classed as an "evil" PKer by some just because you PK. You don't have state that you're a PKer on channel 5; people will see it from your actions. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Expecting a person to act in a way that follows the observers beliefs in order to elicit the

proper label to be bestowed upon the person, is going way beyond anyone expectations.

Its not the fault of the alleged deviant, but the fault of the person applying the label. The truth

is regardless of the actions of the deviant, the observer can, on a whim, change\alter the

description. (He is evil, he killed me; He is nice he helped me after he killed me)

 

So any descriptions like 'evil pker' or 'afk bandwidth wasting storage monkey in a fur hat' are based on the beliefs

of the observer and have nothing to do with fact.

 

On topic:

 

At some point you have to label something. Its obvious that the forum cannot be named

after a particular type of player or poster without negative reactions.

 

So perhaps naming the forum with something that only labels the type of speech and not the speaker.

• Complaints
  
• Rants
  
• Flames
  
• Transgressions
  
• Disputes
  
• Grievances
  
• (or maybe the same but in Latin? Could take the power out of it the label.)
  

 

-robotbob, the evil pking afk silver cave ground warming franken orchan helm spamming summoner.

[Aislinn]

I like "Disputes" , thank you.

It does not imply either party to be the good guy or the bad guy.

[Vanyel]

Wow I'm amazed...Whiners Forum?? Yea I do agree that lately many people posted on outlaws forum without any real good reason or evidence to "label" someone as an outlaw but...what about those who got scammed or lured or misguided by "evil" people and just posted to warn others? Do you really have to label those too as whiners? I do wanna know about these scammers, I wanna read what they did and then let me decide it myself if I consider them as outlaw or not. Calling people, who post there with reason, whiners is very disrespectful and I think it makes a bad image about the creators and moderators of this game that they treat their players like this... Even if they whine about minor things, why is it so bad, why is it an issue, why can't you let them whine if that makes them happy. Every accused person has the right and opportunity to protect itself and most people have enough brain to decide who deserves the real outlaw label and who was just accused of nothing. And anyways that forum already has 2 very strict moderators who keep closing threads which is a kind of judgement (closing= your post worth nothing), so I don't see what is this debate about. Yea killing pkers, pvpers and ffers are not really outlawish in most cases but there can be cases when they are, it all depends on the circumstances so I don't think you can make rules when people can post and when not. Especially because, as we can see from the amount and variety of replies, everybody has his/her own opinion of what is outlawry. So this debate will never end, you can't force people to all think the same what is right and what is wrong, so either keep outlaws forum as it was, or delete it.

 

Ever heard of paragraphs?

<edit>

In my opinion showing respect toward others requires, at least an attempt of, using proper punctuation, paragraphs, proper spelling and grammar. It makes reading one's post easier. Moreover, it is a sign of respect toward readers.

Honestly, nobody can expect one's post is taken seriously if it is just a one block of text, dozen lines long. (Well, unless your names is James Joyce and you just finished quoting Ullises.)

Of course, if your post is meant as a kind of joke some 1337, etc. is ok.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Vanyel

[Aislinn]

Ok...

Whiners Forum is now officially "Disputes".

The new ruleset for that section has been posted twice, once where you click on "Disputes Forum Rules" in the pinkish-red band across the top of the page, and again in the pinned topic by me called Rules for Posting.

Also that section will be cleaned up a lot over the next few days.