Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
Wizzy

Economy

Recommended Posts

Lately, mostly since Radus intresting blog entry on the game and how the economy is managed in game, the concept of economy has been sited, mis-sited, stated, and over-stated on the forums. For all of those whom are unsure exactly what economy is here is a crash course.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy

 

I am not trying to be facetious, it is just getting a little bit of a pain to hear so many say "its for the economy" or "the econmy is ___________" the economy is completely player controled. If you dont like the price of EFE, go to the EL shop and buy 500 EFE and flood the market. If you dont think there is enough gc's in game, sell flowers to an npc and bring gc's in. It is very hard to compare EL economy to a real life economy. There are endless resorces here. There is little to no inflation, there is no speculation markets, there are no futures markets. If crafters are tired of selling dis rings at a break even price, or a loss, get together and form a crafters guild.. Set your prices and see if the market will sustain it. (that is an example, not trying to pick on the crafters)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IRL, the fundamental economic question is "How do you allocate limited resources among unlimited wants and needs?"

In EL, it appears to be "How do you allocate infinite resources so everyone stops bitching so god damn much?"

:)

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar, spelling.

Edited by Eternity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Economy is a very intresting topic.Imo there are lots of ppls that became more smart and they are looking for the lowest price even if it takes them some days to find someone selling at low price.All things considered ofcourse is very important because by this way someone can make lots of gc.

I prefer this type of economy:I get everything i want myself(all harvestable items) or i make everything i need. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is little to no inflation

 

There is a substantial inflation, however it is mostly limited to rare items

 

there is no speculation markets

 

Ermm ... what about those profiteers buying NMT's for 300k from fighters and selling to noobs for 450k ?

 

there are no futures markets.

 

like accumulating resources in order to use them in a future when previously announced changes will become introduced (or selling them when the expected change is delayed or requires resources other than anticipated)?

 

EL economy is (or at least can be) altered by the RL one.

 

go to the EL shop and buy 500 EFE and flood the market

 

Add to that bought chars, swords, etc.

 

But we still should remember EL is a game, so at least for me on the day I can no longer stand to

 

sell flowers to an npc and bring gc's in.

 

to buy what I need (instead of doing in game what I really like), I'll simply quit. So called Economy should encourage player to play rather than take his joy away :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IRL, the fundamental economic question is "How do you allocate limited resources among unlimited wants and needs?"

In EL, it appears to be "How do you allocate infinite resources so everyone stops bitching so god damn much?"

:P

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar, spelling.

 

 

nice observation but i have to point out its inaccuracy, in the first saying, the 'fundamental problem', the resources are land, labour, capital and enterprise, of these only land is unlimited in EL the rest are certainly limited.

 

@cruella the futures market is where you pay someone today for a good deliverd in a month say, i could sell you 100 iron ore in a months time and you pay current market price, if the price falls i can buy it cheaper in a month and give it to you and have some profit. i think what you described as futures is actually just speculation.

Edited by anima

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is little to no inflation

 

There is a substantial inflation, however it is mostly limited to rare items

 

That's not inflation.

Inflation is when the prices go up in general, not when just a few things go up in price. That has to do with supply and demand, not with inflation.

For example, if I increase the price of the rostos in the shop to 15 USD, it doesn't mean that there is a lot of inflation in the US (actually, there is, but not because of that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that bots are causing that economy.For example yesterday i was looking forward to sell a serpent stone(it costs like 3kgc,or used to) and i found a bot butying for 4,3kgc.By this way all ppls now will ask 4kgc+ for this item.So we have to be more smart about how much we are going to buy/sell something.I've bought mirror cloak for 4kgc lately,but took me days to find some1 selling lower that 9kgc :/

Edited by _lucifer_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is little to no inflation

 

There is a substantial inflation, however it is mostly limited to rare items

 

That's not inflation.

Inflation is when the prices go up in general, not when just a few things go up in price. That has to do with supply and demand, not with inflation.

For example, if I increase the price of the rostos in the shop to 15 USD, it doesn't mean that there is a lot of inflation in the US (actually, there is, but not because of that).

 

I was talking about "inflation" understood as decrease in an amount of goods you can buy for an hour of your in-game work. Let's say you harv lupines and sell to flower shop. The price NPC buys them hasn't changed, so you need to spend more time hauliong them to afford high demand goods that are currently 20% more expensive as they were few months ago (just an example).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand economics enough to give opinions about why things work the way they do, or how they should work, but I can describe what I see and ask questions about it. After all, I may not know how to build an economy, but as a player, I can see clearly how I am affected by an economy that either works or doesn't.

 

In EL, I don't see much structure to the economy. This is an artificial world designed to work in this or that way, but I can't see the design behind the game's economy. What I see is a world in which every individual can, technically, be completely self-sufficient, gaining and/or creating everything they need on their own without either help or interference from other people, and without any real limitations of available resources. Unlimited individual self-sufficiency isn't really an economy, is it? There is no actual need to trade with others, and it seems to me that this makes the "economy" little more than an optional game feature that one can participate in or not. If that is so, does it really matter how it works or what happens to it?

 

Personally, I think realism in game features like the economy (which over time can affect how playable a game really is) is way more important than realism in character animations or monster behaviors.

 

Folks might be interested in this article: http://harvardinteractivemedia.org/HIMR1.1...al_Results.html

 

It's from the first issue of HIMR, the new bi-annual magazine of the Harvard Interactive Media Group. It's about experimental projects in designed social systems within game worlds as ways of studying real world societal dynamics. It talks about the group's first project, "Arden," which is about modeling economies in MMO game worlds.

 

Btw, if you follow the table of contents links, you can access the whole magazine. A lot of very interesting stuff (though the "Are Video Games Art?" article is the most unmitigated academic non-art bullshit I've read in a long time).

Edited by peino

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that bots are causing that economy.For example yesterday i was looking forward to sell a serpent stone(it costs like 3kgc,or used to) and i found a bot butying for 4,3kgc.By this way all ppls now will ask 4kgc+ for this item.

 

LOL your not allowed to say that bots alter the EL economy, its a cardinal sin. Naughty boy * slaps wrists of lucifer * Ive tried to bring this up before, but was told firmly that bots do NOT have any infuence on the market. Why is that you ask ? Aparently its because a player sets the bots prices. So of course that has no effect whatsoever on the market. :)

 

With regard to the economy and bots and channel 3 and the price of eggs theres a perfect way I found to deal with it. The way to go is stop caring. Yep. F*** it.

 

Either that or buy yourself a bot and flood the market with more BS prices than your competition. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is little to no inflation

 

There is a substantial inflation, however it is mostly limited to rare items

 

That's not inflation.

Inflation is when the prices go up in general, not when just a few things go up in price. That has to do with supply and demand, not with inflation.

For example, if I increase the price of the rostos in the shop to 15 USD, it doesn't mean that there is a lot of inflation in the US (actually, there is, but not because of that).

 

I was talking about "inflation" understood as decrease in an amount of goods you can buy for an hour of your in-game work. Let's say you harv lupines and sell to flower shop. The price NPC buys them hasn't changed, so you need to spend more time hauliong them to afford high demand goods that are currently 20% more expensive as they were few months ago (just an example).

 

 

i let it go when you misinterpretted inflation earlier but i cant now.

 

what you have described is not inflation, inflation is the sustained rise in prices of all goods, there is no net loss by anyone (except in fiscal drag but thats a whole other story) inflation is where people get paid more, goods cost more, the value of each currency unit has decreased. what you have described never really happens unless there is a class system in RL(and theres not in EL) and therefore there is no name for this effect and next to no understanding of its consequences.

 

disclaimer:im sorry that when i see a post with false info i have to correct it, i wish i didn't but i get this horrible feeling inside until i do.

 

edit @ peino you can be self sufficient but you can benefit from trading, mainly by saving pps, i make steel and use it to pay for everything else so i dont need 4 veg to make srs

Edited by anima

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you are using strict economic terminology to talk about pixels

 

EL is not a faculty of economy or NYSE

 

go to DP storage, talk to people, ask what they mean by "inflation"

 

the truth and the point is - average EL player needs to spend more and more time in game on tedious, repetitive tasks serving for making more and more gc in order to afford basic items required to have fun in game

 

no one really cares how you call it, a lot cares about its consequences

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you are using strict economic terminology to talk about pixels

 

EL is not a faculty of economy or NYSE

 

go to DP storage, talk to people, ask what they mean by "inflation"

 

I don't give a shit what people mean by "inflation". Inflation is a word that has a certain meaning, just because some ignorant people don't know that meaning doesn't mean that the meaning somehow changed, ktnxb!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
edit @ peino you can be self sufficient but you can benefit from trading, mainly by saving pps, i make steel and use it to pay for everything else so i dont need 4 veg to make srs

I know that, but that's beside the point I was trying to make.

 

I make all my money from harvesting/mining and selling to bots/NPCs. I RP my character in a way that requires him to have basic self-sufficiency "survival" skills, but to concentrate on the 2 sometimes-connected interests of monster-slaying and wealth accumulation (planning for future purchases). Since he's supposed to spend most of his time either killing monsters or trading ores/herbs/stones, it would be a waste of his time to also make all his own gear. I can make several kinds of armor and weapons, potions, etc., but the only mixing I do all for myself is alchemy (again for RP reasons). I make maybe half - 2/3rds of the SRs and BRs that I use -- if I'm anticipating using a lot, I will buy instead of make. The only armors I make are augs, and I don't remember when I last bothered to make a sword for myself. I buy or win from contests everything else I use (which isn't much because I don't need much). I don't level crafting, engineering or tailoring. I either don't use those items, or I rely on other players to sell me what I need. I plan my work and trades for profitability, plan my gameplay to keep expenses low, and keep track of profits and losses. I'm not very rich yet, but I'm far from poor either, and I make more than I spend monthly. I'm doing pretty well in EL. :)

 

But my point was that there is no NECESSITY to participate in the economy. Yes, I CAN benefit from trading, but I don't have to to rise in wealth and status in the game. I do use the economy because I specialize. I kill monsters and trade raw materials for cash. That is all I do. I HAVE TO trade for every other value-added product that I personally need. But I could do what some others do and be entirely self-sufficient, make what I use and use what I make, which would not have me participating in the economy at all. If I did that, it would make no difference to my ability to play the game, except maybe slowing down my rate of leveling in any given skill -- maybe.

 

My point was that an economy that is not NECESSARY to the game becomes irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much items cost if anyone can make them starting from scratch without laying out any cash. It doesn't matter if it goes up or down because the economy itself will not affect or dictate gameplay. The only effect the lack of a working, necessary economy will have is that it will discourage specialization, and less specialization will only make an economy more irrelevant.

 

EDIT: I said before that I'm no expert on economics, and that's true. My opinion is based on two things: My personal experience in using EL, and my real life experience in advertising/marketing, judging markets for products, and manipulating demand on an individual buyer/seller basis. In other words, I don't know how to build economies, but I do know how to sell stuff and make a profit.

 

EDIT #2 @ The_Saxman (Jayim_Duinara): I feel your pain. :icon13: My "specialization" is precisely designed to permit the greatest freedom to explore, hang out and play in the game world, while still making money which I use as my personal measure of "accomplishment." Power-levelers and point-addicts are a lost cause, I guess, but I do wish more people would see the value of specialization in the time it would free up for them to actually PLAY.

Edited by peino

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...more and more gc in order to afford basic items required to have fun in game.

 

 

OK, THAT'S IT! Soapbox time! :)

 

*pulls out a crate, stands on it and starts street preaching*

 

Why do people ignore the fact that this is a ROLEPLAYING game. mmoRPG. Don't leave off those last three letters. QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE STINKIN' ECONOMY!!! *grrrr* If something is expensive.... SAVE FOR IT!

 

Almost everyone I talk to in-game is SOOO caught up in making gc or leveling a skill, that they don't take time to just ENJOY the game with the levels they have! Have you ever just gone EXPLORING? (Oh no! I said a dirty word!). Walk around the game! Find secrets! Hold guild meetings! Make up stories! Go on expeditions as a group! I just had this conversation last night on the general chat...

 

[20:42:49] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Not supposed to post coordinates in official channels. That's why we wouldn't say.

[20:43:04] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: ahh i saw hi

[20:43:09] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: him

[20:43:13] [Altaria @ 4]: oh ok so sr all :9 my bad

[20:43:25] [bronco @ 4]: happens

[20:43:37] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: i dont understand y u cant post corrdinates

[20:43:55] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: It ruins the atmosphere.

[20:44:05] [Anbumedic @ 4]: supposed to find things for urself, it is in the rules

[20:44:13] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: It discourages people from exploring.

[20:44:42] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: seems like in real life u would ask for directions though

[20:44:55] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: We gave you directions. :omg:

[20:45:19] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: But rarely in real life will people give you compass points to go by.

[20:45:24] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: rough directions should be good enough. If you don't know how to explore, you miss out on Way too much.

[20:45:53] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: i guss they didt hae gps in medival times lol

[20:45:56] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: The game is BEAUTIFUL. Everyone should take some time and just walk around it once in a while.

[20:46:14] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: I just finished a trek to explore Seridia.

[20:46:28] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Found MANY things I didn't know about before.

[20:46:38] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: c2 is nice but i dont like c1

[20:46:39] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: you miss out on finding alot of x2 and x3 harvest spots when you don't bother to explore.

[20:46:46] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: And other people couldn't tell be about them, cause they had never gone exploring themselves.

[20:47:20] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: You say you don't like C1, have you seen Tirnym's past? or the Tarsengard Magic School gardens?

[20:48:18] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: i never whant to tarsngard i will gon now

[20:48:28] [Altaria @ 4]: yes I explored once too and died because I froze to death on Irv.now I know to wear warm cloths LOL

[20:48:45] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: The Magic School is BIG inside. And worth exploring.

[20:48:58] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Did you know there is a Hospital with an operating room inside?

[20:49:19] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: the problem with me is i just need to make money and train so i dont have time to explore much

[20:49:26] [Altaria @ 4]: get out of here no way :

[20:49:27] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: The sewers there are PK though. You'll get a warning when you go near the enterance though.

[20:49:59] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: i need to go to that operating room wghere is that

[20:50:37] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Have you ever gone to read some of the books in the Whitestone library? ever seen the Whitestone chapel? would be a nice place for birthdays or weddings.

[20:50:50] [Altaria @ 4]: maybe better service there then in real life :(

[20:51:21] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: the potion school in portland is quite lovely

[20:51:28] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: are there actuly weddings here?? lol

[20:51:42] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: I have attended a wedding before

[20:51:43] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: True. I like the one in Morocraven better. It's kindo of homey.

[20:51:52] [bronco @ 4]: u guys need to mention some places need a mm perk or cape

[20:51:54] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: It was in the TG magic school

[20:51:58] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: *Morcraven

[20:52:17] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: thats crazy guss i havent played long enuff

[20:52:33] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: TG is safe After you are goblin safe.

[20:52:53] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Anyway, there are TONS of fun stuff hidden just a little way off the path. But few people take the time to enjoy them. Give it a try, you'll like it. :)

[20:53:30] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: I haven't even STARTED exploring Irilion yet. :icon13:

[20:53:31] [Altaria @ 4]: There is a beautifull shrine in evtr caves that is a reading room and you can harv:

[20:53:41] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: Aluwen has a cozy place with lovely flowers

[20:54:06] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Woah! I didn't know the EVTR shrine was a READING room!

[20:54:12] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: the TG magic school has a lovely garden if you know how to get to it.

[20:54:13] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: cool!

[20:54:19] [Altaria @ 4]: yup !

[20:54:32] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: The magic school maze might drive you nuts though. lol

[20:54:41] [dragonslayer56 @ 4]: i am in tarsenguard is the garden hidden

[20:54:58] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: It's inside the Magic School somewhere.

[20:55:24] [nathanstenzel @ 4]: it is kinda difficult to get there. secret rooms and all, ya know.

[20:55:31] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Sorry, but I can't give you even rough directions in there. I got lost. lol

[20:55:57] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: But I did stuble into a Hospital wing with an operating room.

[20:56:18] [Altaria @ 4]: I think you have to go upstairs and out big doors>

[20:56:24] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Had a table with manacles on it. Looked kinda scary (I hate doctors offices)

[20:56:41] [tjg08 @ 4]: You aren't the only one, Jayim

[20:56:47] [tjg08 @ 4]: They are creepy

[20:57:20] [Jayim_Duinara @ 4]: Actually, talking about the gardens makes me want to find them again... I'll have to leave the iron mining for now...

 

Take time to actually explore the game, see the game, enjoy the game, and you won't have enough time to complain about something that you control anyway. Like I said, if something is spendy... save for it.

 

*gets off soapbox*

The_Saxman (Jayim_Duinara)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the truth and the point is - average EL player needs to spend more and more time in game on tedious, repetitive tasks serving for making more and more gc in order to afford basic items required to have fun in game

 

what items?? most basic items are the same as always, or cheaper, simply because the only way to sustainably gain levels is to make things which can be picked up from the ground for free. hence a huge supply and lower and lower prices. Anyone can go and pick lupines for a period of time, and I guarantee that the time taken to pick enough lupines to buy any amount of essence, potion, low end armour etc is much less time than the time to gather and mix raw ingreds. In many cases the time taken to get the lupines is less than the time taken just to mix, never mind picking the raws,

 

it is a strange and bent economy in EL for sure, but all the time that any player can amass any amount of gold they set their mind to, no complaint over the rising cost of rare items can possibly hold water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm personally not complaining whatsoever. As a matter of fact I'm probably doing better than average, as for a player who has started to play a bit over 4 months ago. I've been trying to present a view I've encountered when talking to others, and also presented in other threads on this forum. Maybe it's time to stop doing that and to go back to my "wormwood bush". I'll call it then EOT on my end and let other speak for themselves if they think they should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It s a controlled economy like when at rl state provides the prices . Entrophy can manipulate the prices as he wants.

Even if we say we won t fight any more and harv idk maybe lupins he can make lupins min recommended harv level 100 and nexus 7 :icon13: .

 

I don t think that this has to change and we have no right to ask Entrophy to let the market free .

 

As i see the game from almost 8 months i have been enjoying it . The problems are:

1. More consumers are needed ( that is more ppl/alts etc come in game )

2. High level ppl that don t consume much ( and have mil gc at their invs ie harvesters) must start to consume more (move gc around)

 

Well i hope more ppl are going to join and we all can give a helping hand... idk maybe send some email to our game magazines or sth (so many ppl from all over the globe , maybe someone will be interested :) )

 

ps Make someones life easier he will help making yours too (outopia maybe, but an idea)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. More consumers are needed ( that is more ppl/alts etc come in game )

2. High level ppl that don t consume much ( and have mil gc at their invs ie harvesters) must start to consume more (move gc around)

1. Consumers r fighters/pkers, imho u will rather expect their number to decrease(in comparation to producents), which isnt good but thats how it was till now at least.

I remember being a newbie in 30's-40's we were fighting over every 1k srs our guild potter made, and for every 10k HE our alchemists made, i even made some myself coz it was kinda hard to force ppl to mix all those stuff for ings ( i did some pr0 trades ings for final product which made me not go insane tho :) )

 

2. Evil Leonard can make them poorer, or at least less wealthy :icon13:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Asking for more consumers in EL is like asking for more prostitutes in a convent. You can't find a consumer to begin with let alone expect anymore to be coming in the near future. All of Entropy's ideas are based on killing any type of consumerism in EL. If you can make money then something is wrong with the game. Entropy's EL economy is: you spend gold coin to level your character. That is it. You are not supposed to get rich. You are not supposed to make money. If anyone is making more than they are spending then there is something wrong with the game.

 

Their is simply no future in trying to get rich in EL. If one person can make good money in EL without having to spend that same money then everyone could. Anyone being able to get rich and stay rich is not acceptable in EL because it means that there is no end to the possible amount of gold coin in game. What we need is something for every mixer to need that has to be paid for so that the they have to spend money to make money. If every mixer had that kind of limit on their income then there wouldn't be a need to limit the fighters income. The fighters would pay the mixers and the mixers would spend on their skill and no money would be made by anyone that did not go out of the game. Everyone would get to play doing the things they want and everyone would be happy. There simply is no other solution. :)

 

Tirun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said EOT earlier, but one more thing, sorry :)

 

It IS possible to get rich in EL and none of Entropy's ideas can prevent it. As in any mmorpg where trade is allowed the real gold mine is on channel 3 and Marketplace forum. The few who take advantage of it I'm sure do not complain about being poor, same for some bot owners (often same guys). Trade can make you rich in El, the problem is it does not give you any exp :icon13: and additionally not everyone wants to work in sales full time, especially if one plays for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. More consumers are needed ( that is more ppl/alts etc come in game )

2. High level ppl that don t consume much ( and have mil gc at their invs ie harvesters) must start to consume more (move gc around)

1. Consumers r fighters/pkers, imho u will rather expect their number to decrease(in comparation to producents), which isnt good but thats how it was till now at least.

I remember being a newbie in 30's-40's we were fighting over every 1k srs our guild potter made, and for every 10k HE our alchemists made, i even made some myself coz it was kinda hard to force ppl to mix all those stuff for ings ( i did some pr0 trades ings for final product which made me not go insane tho :P )

 

2. Evil Leonard can make them poorer, or at least less wealthy :)

 

made "some" yourself? lol

 

I remember when you first started, we were like "qtf is this random nub?!?" You made urself like 100k HE and 50k SR then started trainign like crazy... lolx

 

shame we all kinda quit then, was pretty pro when you turn up in kf with 80's a/d after a few weeks/months whatever it was ;>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All thx to my friends Grawius and Nitager who's advices saved me so much time, yeah, i made 100k HE but its not like i was 1st or last who made that much, and rumors about srs r wrong, i made them like many other fighters with veg 4 nexus- on spawn :confused:

<edit> kinda feeling now like hijacker, sorry economy thread :>

Edited by masterpiter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×