Eiron

[Keegs_Mom]

Eiron bag jumped my guildies in Crystal Caverns, taking sulfur, fire and health essence. When asked to return the items, he refused.

 

Chat log - with guild chat and unrelated PMs removed. I have removed the guildies name who was jumped, at their request.

 

#GM from ___: i got bag jumped by Eiron

#GM from Keegs_Mom: Eiron is the name?

#GM from ___: 40FE, 14 HE and sulfur, coulda been worse

[PM to Eiron: bag jumping, while not illegal in EL, is bad manners and will get you labelled as an outlaw]

#GM from Keegs_Mom: I am messaging him

#GM from Keegs_Mom: will put him on outlaws

[PM from Eiron: someone take it from him]

[PM from Eiron: i just learning how to play]

[PM from Eiron: i realy take some suphurs]

#GM from ___: ...[PM to Eiron: you dont even need that stuff, bring it back, your a bag jumper, im reporting you if i dont see you real soon back here]

[PM to Eiron: you took sulfur, fire essence and health essence]

[PM from Eiron: but he say i take Fire essencias and all]

[PM to Eiron: I am posting your name on the outlaws forum]

#GM from ___: [PM from Eiron: look its not me someone whith the nick thief something take it]

[PM from Eiron: what this means]

#GM from ___: then he says this........ [PM from Eiron: i only take 15 suphurs]

[PM to Eiron: he and 1_thief are working together but 1_thief did not take the fire essence or health essence]

[PM from Eiron: =)]

[PM from Eiron: look]

#GM from 1_thief: was he saying something about me?

[PM to Eiron: it means that most guilds will not accept you as a member]

[PM to Eiron: we don't accept players who steal]

#GM from Keegs_Mom: he was trying to say you took the essies

[PM from Eiron: look do what you want]

#GM from Keegs_Mom: did you take essies out of the bag 1_thief?

#GM from ___: no thief didnt

#GM from Keegs_Mom: just checking

#GM from ___: plz its ok, buddys a thief, i just dont pick ppl outta thin air, just belive me, dont let nuddy get you to ask us about it all, its over

[PM to Eiron: I am giving you the opportunity to return the stolen goods instead of being put on the outlaws]

[PM from Eiron: maybe other person take it]

[PM from Eiron: do whatever you want]

Edited March 25, 2008 by Keegs_Mom

[PaulB]

Ok I know that bagjumping is outlawish but it sounds to me like he was new. . .

 

[PM from Eiron: i just learning how to play]

 

[PM from Eiron: i realy take some suphurs]

 

Now he admitted steeling some sulfur but he did say he was just learning how to play.

 

The majority of the PMs sound confussing and I thinking you should try to explain it better to him.

 

Maybe then he would have returned the stuff.

 

Im not on his side in this but I will say that if he is new to the game then why not help explain things better and show him the outlaws forums so he knows that those acts are against community rules.

 

If he still doesn't return the stuff THEN outlaw him.

 

 

 

Im glad he didnt get much from you but please understand that new players might not realize what bagjumping causes.

 

 

*EDIT* typo

Edited March 25, 2008 by Paul Brown

[Vanyel]

Actually, are you making the ruckus about 15 pieces of sulphur? This is the only thing he admitted to take and you've not provided any proves he took anythig more.

Moreover, I somehow agree with PaulB. His English was rather poor. He said he was new to the game. Instead of threatening him with posting in Outlaws you could've explained him what he did and why it was wrong. I guess posting in Outlaws is easier.

Now, threatening Eiron with posting in Outlaws didn't make much sense. If he was new to the game he would not know what "Outlaw" forums is either way.

Keegs_Mom for handling this issue.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Vanyel

[Sayre]

Agree with two posts above. This issue was handled poorly, he didn't come across as vindictive at all, just baffled by your anger.

 

This guy is no outlaw IMO. He made an error of judgment and probably felt slighted by your bitchy dealing with it.

 

S.

[peino]

Keegs_mom is someone I consider a friend in-game, and I don't believe she's bitchy or trigger-happy with complaints. I understand how what Eiron did seemed to be a deliberate outlaw action, but I have to say I agree with those who say the situation was mis-read.

 

From the chat logs it seems to me that Eiron is new to the game but made an effort to read at least the FAQs, newbie tips, and rules. I'm guessing that because those sources clearly state that bags left on the ground are fair game and because he only took a few things from the bag (what he needed?). If Keegs' guildies were bag mixing or bag trading as part of a harv project, it would appear that they were freely taking things from a bag that was left on the ground. To a newbie that would signal the bag was fair game, just like it says in the game rules and tips. He might think this especially if he has seen people at beam or storages deliberately leave bags of things they don't need/want for other people to take, etc.

 

In EL, bag mixing/trading is a common practice, but it conflicts sometimes with the official rules and other community guidelines about bags on the ground. I can easily understand how a newbie would not understand those bags are not public property. This is why I, personally, think bag mixing/trading are more trouble than they are worth.

 

Also, newbies are sometimes unfamiliar with the EL chat system. I often have trouble getting newbies to answer PMs, and they tell me later it was because they had to figure out where/who the messages were coming from. Add that to poor English and an expectation that he was doing nothing wrong, and I can see why the convo with Eiron went nowhere. He might be puzzled about it even yet.

[Tigs]

Yes, it seems Eiron is a new player, and english is not his first language (I have seen him on chan 1).

 

Several points:

 

1) this is a valid warning to others..whether he took 15 sulfur or all of it is not the point. He was told he should not take others things; told that it is legal, but frowned on by most players He chose to keep them anyway.

 

2) The post itself is a warning, if he is told ingame how to get here. That is if he is not given the idea that its OK to have done this. He took because he needed without thinking that others needed it AND worked for it. He *can* get sulfur on his own..no books to read, just a pair of gloves, which many ppl will give away to a new player.

 

3)The rudeness point: I don't see what was said to Eiron as being impolite. K_M may have gone too fast for him, but she was not rude.

 

Bottom line: he stole the bag, was told about community rules/outlaws forum. He chose to keep it. I would personally give him a second chance, due to point #1(he may yet learn better) but still valid to let people know this new player is (right now) willing to take what he wants (and can get himself, IF he only took sulfur) rather than work for it himself.....

 

Tigs

[Vanyel]

I tend to think, Tigs, that you completely missed some points.

Yes, it seems Eiron is a new player, and english is not his first language (I have seen him on chan 1).

Now, try using some empathy (yeah, I know it's difficult) and imagine how Eiron read PMs from Keegs_Mom. Did he understand all of them? I doubt it.

 

I will not comment on first point you mention as the English might have been an impossible to get over obstacle here. On the contrary, I find this post more a warning that Keegs_Mom has no patience and jumps to conclusions and threatening in few seconds.

Once again, his English might have made it impossible for him to understand how to get here. Moreover, he needs to register to give his answer here. Will he be able to do it? Probably, with help of others. Additionally, how the hell he was supposed to know it was Keegs_Mom's bag. Read peino's post. He might have seen people going to the bag and taking stuff out of it. He just followed them. Sure, he was explained, later, what was going on. Qeustion, though - how much did he understand?

Finally, this is SECOND PM to Eiron:

#GM from ___: ...[PM to Eiron: you dont even need that stuff, bring it back, your a bag jumper, im reporting you if i dont see you real soon back here]

Give me a break, in second PM Eiron got called a bag jumper (did he understand the term?) and threatened with Outlaws forums. Additionally, he is treated like a pet "I don't see you real soon back here". Woof woof.

Moreover, it looks like Eiron was PMing with somebody else explaining him the situation and these PMs got into the chat causing even more confusion.

Now, if somebody in his second post calls me a bagjumper and uses threats I would consider this person rude. Most probably I'd not PM back and ignore any words from this person side.

Let's get facts straight. I do not say Eiron was in his rights. I do claim, though, the issue was handled in terrible manner. Nobody should jump on others yelling they are bagjumpers, threatening them. Especially, if the other side has huge problems with understanding English.

[Tigs]

I tend to think, Tigs, that you completely missed some points.

Yes, it seems Eiron is a new player, and english is not his first language (I have seen him on chan 1).

Now, try using some empathy (yeah, I know it's difficult) and imagine how Eiron read PMs from Keegs_Mom. Did he understand all of them? I doubt it.

 

I will not comment on first point you mention as the English might have been an impossible to get over obstacle here. On the contrary, I find this post more a warning that Keegs_Mom has no patience and jumps to conclusions and threatening in few seconds.

Once again, his English might have made it impossible for him to understand how to get here. Moreover, he needs to register to give his answer here. Will he be able to do it? Probably, with help of others. Additionally, how the hell he was supposed to know it was Keegs_Mom's bag. Read peino's post. He might have seen people going to the bag and taking stuff out of it. He just followed them. Sure, he was explained, later, what was going on. Qeustion, though - how much did he understand?

Finally, this is SECOND PM to Eiron:

#GM from ___: ...[PM to Eiron: you dont even need that stuff, bring it back, your a bag jumper, im reporting you if i dont see you real soon back here]

Give me a break, in second PM Eiron got called a bag jumper (did he understand the term?) and threatened with Outlaws forums. Additionally, he is treated like a pet "I don't see you real soon back here". Woof woof.

Moreover, it looks like Eiron was PMing with somebody else explaining him the situation and these PMs got into the chat causing even more confusion.

Now, if somebody in his second post calls me a bagjumper and uses threats I would consider this person rude. Most probably I'd not PM back and ignore any words from this person side.

Let's get facts straight. I do not say Eiron was in his rights. I do claim, though, the issue was handled in terrible manner. Nobody should jump on others yelling they are bagjumpers, threatening them. Especially, if the other side has huge problems with understanding English.

 

First: please do not presume I have no empathy. Talk to some players that have known me for some time (up to ~3 years), and I think you will find out otherwise. I didn't say the player was eeeebul or bad. I *said* this post is a valid warning to OTHERS that this person has jumped a bag. Eiron's understanding of what he did,or not understanding it, is not what I was talking about. Others should be cautious unless/until he does understand. This is true and valid.

 

The post to #gm was rude imo also. It was not the conversation with Keegs_mom. This is the conversation I was talking about. Note: it was not Keeg's_Mom that threatened in that post (whenever it was pm'd to Eiron). I did not mean to say noone was rude. I said Keegs_Mom was not rude, and DID try to explain in HER pms with Eiron.

 

Also please note my "bottom line": I WOULD give such a new player another chance. I hope he can connect with people that can explain to him in his own language...it HAS to be hard to understand otherwise. I am NOT saying, nor ever did that he is a bad person. I only said: it is a valid warning to others for now.

 

(#edit--spelling)

Edited March 25, 2008 by Tigs

[masterpiter]

I did bagjumped as a new player too, and as a poor english speaker i asure u its very hard to understand what bagjumping is, and that the bag u take is some1 else's and u shouldnt take it.

 

U need to remember the person is new, he doesnt read forums, also if he has problems with english he doesnt go to newbie chan, he tries to learn the game by himself.

It is stressful for him too- some strange persons suddenly wanting something from him and he didnt do nothing bad at all( coz he doesnt know the definition of bagjumping).

There is no1 to teach him to not bagjump and explain what to do if he finds a bag, he could think bag just respawned like bread in ip does, or in votd gob cave.

 

Actually, few other new players could tell him to take stuff from bags, in my early stage of playing i met few players that were excited when looking for bags coz they hoped for some nice items( and they cursed badly while chasing rabbits/beavers and dieing to an evil deer on ip- polish curses r pr0 )

 

Just trying to say- take it easy, patience is needed when dealing with new players, they might seem "slow" but werent we all like that at the beginning?

 

That guy of coz can be an alt or some mean person that wants to take advantage of u, but u r experienced enough to see the difference, arent u?

 

mp

[Tigs]

eMPi:

 

Yes, I understand he is new. He *does* use channel 1. Luckily, his english is good enough for that...but that is not the same as understanding rapid-fire PM's. Most of my EL life was spent in a guild w/ most players not native english speakers. I have always defended people who can communicate (tho not perfectly)in english when it is not their first language. (most of these speak better than many "native" speakers lol) I say: all you who have english as 2nd or 3rd lang....you speak better than I can in yours!! Many many Kudos!!!

 

I agree, he is new, and probably understands little. He is almost certainly not bad person/evil player, just does not yet know.....

 

so yes, to these players who were bagjumped and others..yes, have patience, be aware, and remember when you were new. Also imagine this game in another language than yours..even worse/harder!

 

I just also say...*until* he understands, people still need to watch out, and that is important to know too.

 

Tigs

[Vanyel]

Instead of watching out 'people' could explain him why it was wrong.

[XaRondas]

Posting a new player bjumping some sulfur and some FEs?

 

wtf is the prob ? i still can t see it.... Everyone is bjumping each other at IP , should we post them to show them the moral path?

 

Next time post something more serious than that

 

Draugluin

Edited March 25, 2008 by draugluin1

[Shujral]

maybe we could figure out what language he speaks and find someone who speaks that particular language (and English too) to explain his actions too him? Its not in the rules, so how would a new player know?

 

so ya, at outlawing him/her.

 

-Shuj

Edited March 25, 2008 by Shujral

[Troger]

I think almost everyone of us who havent started to play from the begining, has commited bagjumping, and dident know it is bad. When i first heared this term, i thought that it was a skill . It is really hard to realize what the bagjumping term is standing for.

And i even know peoples that have posted in outlaws others who actually gave all the items back.

And 15 sulfur, it is ridiculos. I used to leave many time on the ground some sulfur when i am making fe's because i mined to much and cant carry back to storage.

Just a bit think about it before jump at others neck.

[Keegs_Mom]

I just want to clarify a couple things:

 

1) You see this as a series of rapid fire PMs, but the guild chat has been omitted, the conversation went on for some time (at least 15 or 20 mins) and I did give him a chance to return (or at least admit he took the other items). I understand that my guild member might have become a little quick to react, but when you don't have much to take, it hurts when someone takes what you have.

 

2) The point of the post was not *what* he took, but that he took it. Just because my guys were n00bs that only had FEs and HEs instead of CoLs and rostos doesn't mean that it is ok to take their stuff.

 

3) My intention in starting the post in the first place was as a warning to other EL players, both to understand that Eiron might have a peek in their bags and/or help himself, and also to guild recruiters so they know if they are recruiting Eiron to explain BJ to him so that if this is an inappropriate practice in their guild, they make sure he understands that. As a guild that has a large number of newer players, we try to ensure our guildies know what bag jumping is and the ramifications in participating in the practice.

 

I can say that provided I knew Eiron now understood bagjumping and what it meant, we would still accept him in our guild, but in the mean time, we will keep our eyes open.

 

KM

[Vanyel]

1) You see this as a series of rapid fire PMs, but the guild chat has been omitted, the conversation went on for some time (at least 15 or 20 mins) and I did give him a chance to return (or at least admit he took the other items). I understand that my guild member might have become a little quick to react, but when you don't have much to take, it hurts when someone takes what you have.

 

Assuming he took them, right? Any proves? Haven't seen any.

 

I can say that provided I knew Eiron now understood bagjumping and what it meant, we would still accept him in our guild, but in the mean time, we will keep our eyes open.

If I were him last thing I would do is joining your guild. A guild of people rushing to conclusions. People that threatened me. People that yelled at me. People accusing me of stealing stuff I (most probably, as no proves are provided) didn't take. Yeah, sure. I wouldn't dream about anything else, but being part of this guild.

[Tempest]

I did bagjumped as a new player too

 

probably 98% of EL did that, i think. completly understandable if ur new to the game and u see a bag which no1 has and if it's interesting for you.

 

u know.. if it was 15 sulfur nad few fes i wouldnt piss my pants, i would pm the newbie and tell him this is seen as a bad behaviour in this game, and then tell him he should have fun with the stuff.. i mean cmon... newbies.. stop posting those ppl in outlaws

 

 

EDIT: and why the hell should u edit ur guildmembers name out except if he has something to hide? hes scared everyone sees some1 stole him some fes/sulfur? sounds VERY strange to me.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Tempest

[Vanyel]

Maybe it was an alt, not a guildie?

[peino]

Assuming he took them, right? Any proves? Haven't seen any.

FYI, from the first post:

[PM from Eiron: i realy take some suphurs]

#GM from ___: ...[PM to Eiron: you dont even need that stuff, bring it back, your a bag jumper, im reporting you if i dont see you real soon back here]

[PM to Eiron: you took sulfur, fire essence and health essence]

[PM from Eiron: but he say i take Fire essencias and all]

This indicates that Eiron personally admitted he took sulfur from the bag but denied taking anything else. If he is telling the truth, then possibly another person also "jumped" this bag but didn't get caught doing it? To my mind, the above quote is not proof of malicious and deliberate bagjumping, but it is certainly proof that Eiron took something from the bag in question. He says so himself.

[Vanyel]

Assuming he took them, right? Any proves? Haven't seen any.

FYI, from the first post:

[PM from Eiron: i realy take some suphurs]

#GM from ___: ...[PM to Eiron: you dont even need that stuff, bring it back, your a bag jumper, im reporting you if i dont see you real soon back here]

[PM to Eiron: you took sulfur, fire essence and health essence]

[PM from Eiron: but he say i take Fire essencias and all]

This indicates that Eiron personally admitted he took sulfur from the bag but denied taking anything else. If he is telling the truth, then possibly another person also "jumped" this bag but didn't get caught doing it? To my mind, the above quote is not proof of malicious and deliberate bagjumping, but it is certainly proof that Eiron took something from the bag in question. He says so himself.

 

FYI, you should've quote all my post instead of cutting it as you please. My question concerned the bolded part, but hey, your post wouldn't make much sense then, would it?

[peino]

FYI, you should've quote all my post instead of cutting it as you please. My question concerned the bolded part, but hey, your post wouldn't make much sense then, would it?

Ah, yes, I see my mistake. Sorry. I did read your quote of KM's post, but I clipped it from my response because I don't like each and every post to repeat the thread history. So it's not that I didn't read what you were responding to. My mistake was that I thought you were asking for proof that he had taken anything, not just that he had taken more than the 15 sulfurs.

 

Perhaps you should have been more specific in your comment. After all, this is a somewhat confused story to begin with. Maybe instead of referring vaguely to "them", you could have said something like "Assuming he took [any items other than 15 sulfurs], right? Any proves? Haven't seen any." That would have made sense right off the bat, and I never would have made my comment.

 

In any event, now that we've established that you failed to make yourself understood (), it seems to me that this matter is settled. Eiron made a mistake. Some people over-reacted. Keegs_Mom jumped the gun in posting to outlaws, and possibly underestimated the heat it would create. She seems ready to admit that Eiron does not qualify as an outlaw. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing more to say here, except that, if I were her, I would ask to have this thread deleted so as not to give the wrong impression about Eiron.

 

That's all I have to say on this.

[Vanyel]

In any event, now that we've estableshed that you succeeded not to understand me, it seems that this matter is settled.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Vanyel

[peino]

In any event, now that we've estableshed that you succeeded not to understand me, it seems that this matter is settled.