fight for your religion

[Roja]

Having so many friggin "branches" of christianity is just stupid.  Isn't it the same damn religion.  Don't you all believe christ died for us and was resurrected, and will return again someday?  I don't get why theres like 50000 different variations of the same damn religion.  Thats stupidity.  And christianity has been used wrongly just like every other religion, by idiots who want to "convert" everyone.

 

All those denominations came about because people found something they didn't like about the Roman Catholic religion. After Jesus, there was just one chrisitian religion. It had it's "headquarters" in 5 major cities at that time. One of those cities was Rome. Rome eventually wanted to be the head over all(instead of having all "heads" equal to each other), the other churches didnt' like that, then there was a split-the Great Schism. Now we have 2 denominations. The west(Roman catholics), and the Eastern churchs. Not many splits came from the east at all. It was from the West-in Europe where they all came about starting with Martin Luther, then the protestants, etc etc....until today where we have like 1000000 different ones.

People want to make up their own religion. they want to conform religion to please themselves the most. That's not right.

The sects of chrisitanity ARE different, sure usually not by much for the majority, but enough that you can see, and read about, the differences.

[Alderan]

hmm... i have not read about what will hapen to those who never had the chance to hear about jesus... i will look it up in the bible, and post it when i find it.

[MasterXan]

Alderan, you can still go to heaven without being Christian. To think otherwise would be to call God an unjust God. If somebody is good enough for heaven, they won't be denied due to such a thing. It'd be like saying, "Ok, you got an A for first semester, an A for second semester, and an A on the final test, but since you looked at me funny the second day of school, I give you a D for the year"

 

ShadowKnight, not all Christians have tried to force religion upon others. Not all have caused wars, killed those of other religions, and so forth. Many good Christians were never a part of such things. Those who have forced religion upon others will be judged by God accordingly. Those who have been involved in wars will be judged, though I believe there is a such thing as a good war, and I would not doubt that many such 'killers' were forced to fight others or go against their leaders (whom they believed incapable of error).

As proof of this statement, look at the Mormons. Who have they killed? Which country have they attacked? It is true they preach to others, but they do not force religion upon others. Nor have they ever. They present Mormon beliefs to those who haven't had the chance to learn them, and then the choice is theirs. If it were different, many countries wouldn't let us preach there. Of course, I may be biased (I'm Mormon), but nowhere in our history have these things happened.

 

Oh, and anybody who wants to argue the point of Mormons being Christians, which literally means followers of (or believers in) Christ, has obviously not been to a Mormon church. Just look at our full name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (we're called Mormons due to our belief in the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible)

[Alderan]

im gonna get some verses that back up what im saying, so i have a good point why you should blive me

[Alderan]

*sigh* forget it things are getting out of hand, but i will add those verses!

[MasterXan]

And I'm fine with that. Although, I highly doubt you've ever read even one chapter in the Book of Mormon, I don't think less of you because you don't believe as I do.

 

Though your spelling is horrible...

 

However, I might add (since we're talking about who goes to heaven and all) that while I don't know of any other religion that believes this, Mormons believe in more than one place where people go after death. Heaven, also called the Celestial Kingdom, is the best. The Terestial Kingdom is lower, followed by the Telestial Kingdom. The Telestial Kingdom is where mass murderers and generally the most sinfull people go. Outer Darkness is where Satan himself lives, and the number of people that go there with him are few. Few as in countable on the fingers of one hand. (To go to Outer Darkness you have to know the secrets of God and then deny them. So few people in history have been privy to the secrets of God that very few could even have the chance to go to OD)

Within each kingdom are multiple levels, and so there is a place for every person to go according to how they behaved in life. We also believe in a limited ability to repent after death but before judgement. But repenting in this 'in between' state of existance is extremely hard, because you don't have a body and cannot right the wrongs you did.

[Alderan]

im sorry for the bad spelling :oops: i was doing something else and was trying to type WAY to fast :oops:

[Hazor]

just a few things...

first, I must say, I really despise religious conflicts like this - they rarely get ANYWHERE at all...

 

and MasterXan, on your first bit, not to make an arguement, but the bible says in multiple places that this is not so, for a couple examples

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

also is romans 10:9-10, wich say

that if you confess with mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

and on a side note, as you said, I've never seen a mormon try to force mormonism on someone else, but it is quite humouring when they come to a missionaries door, not expecting the conversation they're about to get... (my parants are missionaries, btw)

 

 

on the subject of denomintions - most that branch of christianity are partially due to the fact that the bible isn't very clear on some things - such as baptism for instance, hence the baptist denomination, but I'm not going to write up painful details in these.

 

 

on the points about people who don't know of God/Jesus/the christian beliefs - I honestly am not entirely sure on this, I've heard it both ways, from a number of people - However, I will look further into it, and talk to some ministers and/or teachers in my church.

 

 

http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm you may find this interesting, MasterXan, its an article about how mormonism is differant from christianity, and how these differances contredict the christian beliefs...

[5H1zZl3mYd1Zzl3]

And I'm fine with that. Although, I highly doubt you've ever read even one chapter in the Book of Mormon, I don't think less of you because you don't believe as I do.

phew.....

I thought i was the only Mormon here.

I am Mormon so i am cool

[Hazor]

I am Mormon so i am cool  

somany would call religious people "un-cool", for the mere fact that we're religious...

[Alderan]

i like ur siggy oh well, i changed it oh and i remember that, :lol: that was good :lol:

[Alderan]

thanks for the link hazor, i found it... intresting, i did not know the mormons belive those things :shock: will mormons not go to heaven? because they belive in a jesus that is not the true jesus.

[Fallvictor]

I'm steping out of this one guys, when we did this on the illa forum it be came a blood bath, people have tyrouble jsut calmly taking about relgion on forums.

[Alderan]

yes, it is geting uot of hand, how do i delete a post :?:

[Hazor]

how do i delete a post :?:

you don't.

 

and you can't expect it to not get out of hand when the subject is "fight for your religion" ...

[sam3773]

Yes, that's right, Mr. Cruise is here to preach.

 

I have been braught up to beleive that, we are all here for a reason, things happen for a reason, this reason is unknown, I suppose i could put it in EL terms for you:

 

Entropy staring as God

Roja Staring as jesubella (female jesus)

NH's Staring as the 12 deciples.

 

The story:

Entropy makes a world, he sends Roja there to teach his programming, players inhabit that world, from these players, Roja picks 12 people to help teach the programming of Entropy, Why are the players there? Who knows! What is the purpose? Who cares? why did sam3773 do this? hes wierd!

[Alderan]

good point...... :| edit: i ment about what hazor said, i've had enough of this, it's geting stupid

[Alderan]

im steping out of this, i will not be looking at it anymore, i've had enough

[sam3773]

waaaiiitttt I just realised! you copyed me "Fight for your country" post and changed one of the words :(:(:(

Sad, sam3773 is.

angry, he do get!

lost a brain cell, sam3773 has!

[MasterXan]

Alright, I see I have some work to do.

 

Warning: Long explanation of Mormon beliefs ahead. Avoid if prone to falling asleep or violance after experiancing long periods of inactivity.

 

First of all, I highly resent Mormonism being called a 'cult'. The term cult is a widely misunderstood word, and while one believing the LDS faith is not Christianity could call us a cult, using that word is often offensive and certainly demeaning.

 

Secondly, any magazine/article/publication/anything else that is not created by a Mormon tends to not understand Mormon beliefs (notice I did say 'tends', and this is because everything is so complicated. I would say it's like understanding math, you must practice it or you never get it). Those Mormons that have been excamunicated (ex-Mormons) are often bitter or have some reason to hate the church, and some times exaggerate/lie about perceived faults. The LDS religion is so similar at first glance to other Christian religions that other people gloss over it, then notice how drastically different it is and therefore classify it as 'non-Christian'.

 

Next, I again point to our name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe in Christ, we follow his teachings (both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which is specifically labelled 'another testament of Christ' and describes Christ's teachings on the American continent in similar fashion to the Bible). We believe that there is God, and then His direct Son, who is Jesus Christ.

 

We then believe that we are all children of God, making Christ our eldest brother. The third 'God' refered to in the article is in reference to the Holy Ghost, which is not a 'God'. Gods have bodies. The Holy Ghost does not, which is why he can guide us in life with personal revelation (another thing we believe that many don't). Why God himself doesn't use his power to give personal revelation... He does. The Holy Ghost can only know so much, but God knows everything. God directs the Holy Ghost in his 'job'.

 

Now, back to Christ from my sidetrack. Christ was given the plans (created by God) for building the universe as we know it. Christ created it, thus proving he is a God. From now on, I'll refer to Christ's Father as Heavenly Father to prevent confusion.

 

We believe that in the pre-mortal existance (before we were born) a great 'war' took place in heaven. Heavenly Father had proposed his Eternal Plan in order to see who would volunteer to help him (obviously He knew, but He had to propose it so we would know volunteer). Christ stepped forward to help, as did Lucifer. Lucifer wanted to take away our free agency to ensure everyone made it through to live with Heavenly Father again. If Heavenly Father was trying to test our devotion to him (yes, Mormons believe life is a test), then Lucifers idea would ruin the whole thing. Heavenly Father choose Christ to 'represent him' in creating the universe and saving mankind. Lucifer was banished to previously mentioned Outer Darkness, along with 1/3 of all those present (those 1/3 followed Lucifer and were thus banished as well). Christ made the universe, and Christ returned to earth to accomplish the attonement.

 

The attonement was necessary to redeem mankind, because we ourselves couldn't make it. No matter how hard we try, we can't be perfect. So Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, allowing the repentance proccess (which otherwise would have cheated justice). However, we must still show our faith and devotion by trying to be like Christ, who is the only 'person' capable of a perfect life (due to his being a God). Those who try to do good as best they can with the knowledge they have will be admitted to heaven. Those who know about repentance must repent or they will not have been trying as hard as they could have been. Jesus Christ judges us after death, and we are sent according to our actions (or lack thereof) to the appropriate kingdom. No human being can correctly judge another, so we're told not to try. Christ knows who is really trying and who isn't.

 

Were we not judged upon our actions and instead on merely our being babtised one faith or another, then all those murderers who happened to be babtised would be in heaven... obviously not correct.

 

If we weren't Christians, we wouldn't believe in Christ. We know very little about Heavenly Father himself, and even less about our Heavenly Mother. Christ is almost always the one who makes contact with us, and it is from Him that almost all of our teachings come from (excluding those from revelation).

 

I hope that explained things. I didn't put this here before for obvious reasons (more questions, SUPER LONG POST). Sry it was so long, but it's all interconnected and explaining just part doesn't work well. If anyone wants to continue to say Mormons are not Christians, I will refer them to www.mormon.org www.lds.org or their local missionaries/representatives of the church. These people/sites can explain things better than I can. If you really want, create another topic in which Mormon beliefs (those discussed here or otherwise) can be discussed in depth, and I'll get some help in answering questions. As for any other questions involving Mormons, I'll do my best to answer (with a special attempt to lower the next post size )

 

I now conclude this long post with a paradox: If God is all powerful, He can do anything. So does that mean He can make a rock soooo big, even He can't pick it up? :?

[MasterXan]

Oh, and just to make sure everybody is aware of this: I'm not a prophet, seer, revelator, bishop, high priest, or even an elder in the LDS church. Just a member. So I may not have explained things perfectly (I truely doubt I got close to that lofty goal). What I say is what I have learned, and is to the best of my knowledge true. If you're suspicious, ask again and I'll check with a more experienced person. Otherwise, use the above links to look for yourself.

 

Oh, and the answer to the paradox: He can. Beyond that I doubt we humans can understand.

[Cicero]

All those denominations came about because people found something they didn't like about the Roman Catholic religion. After Jesus, there was just one chrisitian religion. It had it's "headquarters" in 5 major cities at that time. One of those cities was Rome. Rome eventually wanted to be the head over all(instead of having all "heads" equal to each other), the other churches didnt' like that, then there was a split-the Great Schism. Now we have 2 denominations. The west(Roman catholics), and the Eastern churchs. Not many splits came from the east at all. It was from the West-in Europe where they all came about starting with Martin Luther, then the protestants, etc etc....until today where we have like 1000000 different ones.

 

Sadly, it started way before then. Even the first century church was starting to split for various reasons. Big arguments of the first church:

 

1. some said only Jews could become christians

2. some were opposed to eating meat (stupid vegitarians... :roll:)

3. some thought they were superior to others because of who baptized them

 

...and so forth. Denominations are not a new thing. People will always find something to bitch about.

[MasterXan]

Oh man, sry guys, but I just reread that article and noticed my previous post didn't address several issues in it. This one will be shorter, I hope...

 

The article is obviously one-sided (which, I guess mine is too, so I shouldn't complain).

Next, it falsely uses Mormon scripture. Ex: The 8th Article of Faith states that we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as long as it is translated correctly. Anyone who has watched religious programs on the Discovery/History channel can say many, many studiers of the Bible believe it may have been translated incorrectly from Hebrew to Greek/Latin/English/etc. It is also under dispute as to which version that is currently out is the most correct (we use the King James Version, just so you know, and do this to prevent confusion when talking with other Christians). Anyone should realize that translations cannot always transfer information exactly, and multiple translations cause problems. Ex: In 2nd Samuel the word adieu, French, is used because no other word correctly matched the original. In addition, a particular show (on Discovery) supposedly proved that Noah's flood was a local flood, not world-wide, and that it was mistranslated. I don't believe this bit about Noah's flood, btw. The Book of Mormon is more accurate because it has only been translated once, and not by scribes but by the prophet Joseph Smith (assuming, of course, you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet).

Alright, next: the author of the article used an emotional ploy to show we can't be right: he connected Lucifer (the devil) with Christ. Yes, we believe that Christ and Lucifer were brothers. However, according to other Christians, everyone is a son/daughter of Christ/God, and therefore the devil is Christ's son. Is it worse to have an evil brother or evil son? I don't know on that one. Also, if we are sons/daughters of God, why could we not become Gods at some future point, just as Christ did? Baby ducks still grow up to be ducks...

Ok, now the whole Christ is God is Christ thing. In the book of St Matthew, chapter 3, verse 11: "...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" This makes specific referance to the Holy Ghost. In verses 16 and 17:

"And Jesus... went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending Like a dove, and lighting upon him. [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Obviously a direct referance to Christ as being seperate from Heavenly Father. In addition, why would Christ talk to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemany?

In addition to supporting Christ and Heavenly Father being sperate, these scriptures aslo support our claim that the Book of Mormon and Bible teach many of the same principles, when the article says the Book of Mormon undermines the Bible.

 

Basically, the entire article is completely inacurate, both of our beliefs and what is/is not in the Bible. I suggest anyone who reads it not pay too much attention. In fact, the whole site (not just this article) appears to be largely inaccurate. I'm actually sorry you posted that link, it made me realize just how much we really are misunderstood.

[Killerlamb]

Reasons why Chrisitanity are probably not true:

 

1. If god is so nice, why did he start the holocaust? He can'e be prejudice if he is perfect, and if he couldn't control it, how could he exist.

 

2. The crusades, ah yes. Evil spread by the word of god, how Ironic no good has ever gone through the bible.(Fucking evil book has killed more people than anything else. Jesus is worse that Hitler)

 

3. All the best rock bands are affiliated with satan.

 

4. Stairway to heaven KICKS ASS

 

5. The bible is used for mass brainwashing. It is used to get people to buy hotpants...

 

 

Okay, only 2 good respsonses. SUCK MY CORNDOG!

[Cicero]

Reasons why Chrisitanity is probably true:

 

1. Killerlamb disagrees with it

 

2. Killerlamb is an idiot