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Alderan

fight for your religion

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If we cannot judge the acts of people, we should close the courts now.

 

I never said a thing about judging the acts of PEOPLE. All I said was it's wrong for us to say what God thinks-therefore we can't make a great judement on that.

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You have already made the choice, your only here to find out why you made it.

 

LOL, you are quoting The Matrix 8)

 

I think this is a very interesting topic, i see a lot of fanatic people that try to explain their beliefs as good as they can. So let me ask a question:

 

If life is a test, as some of you said before, and God knows everything, wouldn't he already know the outcome of the test? And if so, why does he even bother letting us take the test?

 

 

Also, this thread seems to be more like Defend your Christian beliefs. ARent there any non christians around here?

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Alderan, I wonder why you use a picture of Yoda... You are not a Jedi, but a Christian. You don't belive in The Force, you believe in God.

 

Somehow a Christian picking an image of Yoda as his avatar is like picking an image of Mohammed, or a Buddhist picking an image of Jesus.

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lol, i did not pick that, my brother put it there (hazor) he knows my password :P but STAR WARS is cool, who realy belives in the force? i mean realy people, it's called FICTION :roll: ill change it to a cross if youd like :P

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Wow, this is gonna be another big one guys...

 

I agree with Nidan... I'd like to learn something about non-Christian beliefs, cause I know very little about their teachings.

 

It is impossible for people, with human mistakes and errors, to judge people. It isn't impossible for people to judge ACTIONS. In some situations, murder may be exceptable to God (self defense? defending your country? defending your family?), but often people can't figure out the exact circumstances. Also, God is better at judging actions as well. Our courts are to take people who have most likely done something wrong and keep them from hurting others again. Otherwise, everyone would murder/steal/etc. and all of God's other laws would be harder to keep (you'd have to kill just to survive)

 

Alright, next. I remember Christ's one of disciples being told they would never die. I think it was Peter, but don't quote me on that, it may have been a different one. If he couldn't die, he would still be around somewhere and thus the second coming WOULD happen in one of the disciples' lifetimes. Also, the second coming hasn't happened yet, so if you believe it was supposed to happen before then you don't belief the rest of Christian teachings and it is thus irrelevant.

 

The Adam and Eve story is very, very complex. God told them not to eat of the tree of knowledge, but didn't stop them from doing so. If they had not eventually eaten, they would never have been able to bear children, and would have lived for ever. Obviously they had to eat it for the rest of the plan (previously mentioned by me) to continue. But God could not tempt others to do evil, so Lucifer had to be made to know he could do such a thing, and do it successfully. So God gave a commandment, Lucifer deceived Eve to take the fruit, and Eve got Adam to take it. Thus Adam and Eve were made mortal, could have kids, and knew good from evil. Lucifer became the devil, and he would tempt others to do evil so he would 'prove' that God's choice of Christ over himself was wrong, and so that he (the devil) would feel good about getting others to do evil. That is just scratching the basics of that story.

 

Alright, of course evil must exist. If it didn't, then how would life test us? We would only have one choice, to do good. I'd like to give an analogy as well. Have you guys heard the story of trees on the windy side of the mountain? Forests on the windy side are sparser, the storms and harsh conditions kill many trees and cause great deformities. The side with little wind looks beautiful, has lots of trees, and is weak. The wood is worth less because it's softer, and the forest there isn't able to withstand even small storms. The windy side is strong, with deep roots and hard wood. Suffering and hardship is the best teacher for humans who are often unable or unwilling to learn otherwise.

 

Of course God loved the Jews during the Holocaust. But again, free agency could not be denied. And while most of them were surely innocent, some may not have been. And again, it made them stronger as a people, and the survivors were often brought closer to God (or else they abandoned Him altogether).

 

Look at previously mentioned Mark 13, this time verse 7:

"And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

and 8: "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows."

Obviously, wars and natural disasters are meant to happen.

 

Now, read verse 10 in the same chapter:

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations."

This did not happen until well after the death of all the disciples, save the one given eternal life upon this earth.

Now verse 13: "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Again, referance to strength through suffering, particularly for the Jews. In fact, it may very well be that the next several verses (19 and 20 especially) apply specifically to the Jews and the Holocaust, and while I'm not sure on whether they do apply specifically, they do give the reason for why a tyrant has never been able to control the world.

 

Now, the context of verses 27 and 30 (finally). Before verse 27 we are given many signs which must happen before the second comming. Not all of them have happened. Also, note that in verse 24 it says, "But in those days, after that tribulation,...." At the time of Christ's death, that time of tribulation hadn't ended, Jerusalem hadn't been destroyed. Now, verse 30 has been linked (by Mormon prophets, so this viewpoint is entirely Mormon) to Doctrine and Covenants 45:21, where it says: "And it shall come to pass, that this generation of Jews shall not pass away until every desolation which I have told you concerning them shall come to pass." (of course, if you don't belief in the prophet Joseph Smith and/or the Doctrine and Covenants --A portion of Mormon scripture added to the Book of Mormon by latter day prophets-- then you might as well ignore this connection)

 

Ok, now the free agency thing again. *sighs* Think very hard about this: You just had a hard math test, and you did horrible. Of course, it just happened to be a semester test so your parents will see the test grade seperate from the overall grade. You're thinking about lieing to your parents, forging your report card, or not showing them. If God, knowing you would thus lie about your grade, then decided that would be evil and we can't have that, He would get your math teacher to talk to your parents, taking the decision away from you. When you die, God would account your lieing as evil. But you never lied. You would agrue that He isn't being just, that you were thinking about it but wouldn't actually do it. How could He punish you for something He didn't let you do? He allows evil to happen because otherwise the 'evil doers' would go unpunished. In this is why life is a test. But He already knows the grade, we just have to hurry up and put our answers down.

 

Ok, if God knows what we will do, then we could do something different and God would be wrong. NOT TRUE. God knows our thoughts, remember? He knows when we change our mind. He knows that we will change our mind about picking up that penny on the street 6 billion years before we are born. So he knows exactly what went through our minds before we do. But we don't know what He knows. He knows we will, say, go to Walla Walla Community Colledge. But we are still deciding. Just beause we eventually make the choice God knew we would make doesn't mean we didn't decide. It means God is smart and knows what we will do when confronted with a situation.

 

In case you didn't follow that, I'll try a slightly different way of describing it: God knows what we will do. We don't know yet. We also don't know which choice God knows we will make. We must decide, and lo and behold God was right from the start, no matter how many times we almost do something else. Just because He knows what we choose doesn't mean he interfered/changed/altered the decision making process. Man, I wish I was able to do that with just one person, it would make marraige proposal much less stressful if I knew her answer before I asked. But again, she would still have to decide. God does it with everyone, all the time, and has since who knows how long. We don't know how he does it, just that he does. My guess is we can't understand how He knows what He knows, the 10-15% of our brains we actually use just isn't good enough. (yes, scientists believe the average person only uses 10-15% of their available brain power. Geniuses use around 15-20%)

 

I hope that put things in perspective better. If that didn't convince you of the free agency issue, then nothing I'm capable of saying is... perhaps somebody else can help?

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Lol, sry Leeloo, but are you trying to say that our avatar picture is something we should believe to be true? Hey sam3773, do you believe that the Stargate actually exists? Leeloo, do you belive the movie from which your avatar comes from has happend somewhere in a galaxy far, far away? (sry I don't know the movie's name, but I havn't seen it, just previews)

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STAR WARS is cool, who realy belives in the force? i mean realy people, it's called FICTION :roll:

 

So is the Bible, from my point of view.

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Lol, sry Leeloo, but are you trying to say that our avatar picture is something we should believe to be true?

 

No, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense. Jedi is clearly a religion to some people (to me, it's just as much a religion as Christianity). And displaying an image from a different religion than your own simply doesn't make sense.

 

The other movies you mention are not religions as such, and I wouldn't have commented either, had he chosen Amidala, Han Solo or Jar Jar Binks, because they are only part of the movies. Yoda on the other hand is also a symbol of the Jedi religion, like Jesus is a symbol of Christianity.

 

Well, I don't care. I just wanted to point out that it looked somewhat misplaced.

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I don't think I've ever heard of a Jedi religion, per se. I know of plenty of fanatics, even people who believe it to be true, but never really worshipping the Jedi, or such. But who's to say Alderan believes that? simply a picture of Yoda only means he likes Star Wars. Now, if his siggy said something like "Follow the force and you shall have eternal life" then I'd be worried... :D

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I don't think I've ever heard of a Jedi religion, per se. I know of plenty of fanatics, even people who believe it to be true, but never really worshipping the Jedi, or such.

 

"I don't think I've ever heard of a Christian religion, per se. I know of plenty of fanatics, even people who believe it to be true..."

 

See how crazy that sounds?

 

And "worshipping the Jedi" would be like "worshipping the Christians" (or rather their priests). The force is not something you worship, it's something you believe in, and something you use. Like believing in God.

 

But who's to say Alderan believes that? simply a picture of Yoda only means he likes Star Wars. Now, if his siggy said something like "Follow the force and you shall have eternal life" then I'd be worried... :D

 

I didn't say that. I said it would be just like if he had a picture of Mohammed there instead. Nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't make sense.

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The force is not something you worship, it's something you believe in, and something you use. Like believing in God.

 

Does that mean Christians 'use God'?

 

And while I see nothing odd about having Yoda as an avatar, I can understand your point of view. I just wonder about 'using God'.

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The force is not something you worship, it's something you believe in, and something you use. Like believing in God.

 

Does that mean Christians 'use God'?

 

No. Maybe I should have written that differently. The God part was only supposed to refer to the the part about believing in the force, not using the force.

 

The Christian god is usually seen as a person, and can not be controlled by us. Where as The Force is a force, that can be controlled.

 

However (this is not what I meant when I wrote the other post), depending on how you define "use", God actually IS used by Christians, eg. used for comfort during evil times. But not the kind of used mentioned above.

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Ah, but the force is described as 'having a will', and so to use the force would be the same as using a person. If Jedi exist, perhaps they don't use the force, the force uses them.

 

By the same token, some may say God uses people. Course, then He wouldn't be perfect and just. Oh, btw, it's hard to use somebody for comfort, they have to give it.

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But this is irrelavent, the force doesn't actually exist.

 

Just as God doesn't actually exist.

 

It all depends on belief.

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I was just about to say that nobody actually beleives in the force though, then I remembered the 300,000 or so people that have put "Jedi" as their religion in census surveys. It was australian or canadian or both, I can't remember.

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I do agree that it's based on belief.

 

But what about the using of the force, when it's supposed to have a will?

 

And I will always believe the force doesn't exist, but I should not have put down those who may believe in it. I apologize and retract my earlier statement (I'm going to edit my post as well).

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You know Cicero, some of those people may have been pulling a practical joke... but I doubt 300,000 did. Somebody must believe in the force then.

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Is the world a better or worse place with 300,000 of us believing in the force :?: It really doesnt matter untill they start hurting people with thier Jedi mind tricks :twisted:

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You know Cicero, some of those people may have been pulling a practical joke... but I doubt 300,000 did. Somebody must believe in the force then.

You totally just blammed their religion

 

1. Sam is a sicko for saying life is a test:

Proof: 2 words Harlequin Fetus

 

2. I thought something else was offensive too, brb...

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As to why it happened to the Jews, look in the Bible. Can't remember where, but it mentions a curse upon the Jews because of their wickedness at one time or another. The Holocaust was allowed to happen as a fullfillment of this prophecy.

Here it was:

A truely powerful and wise god would not smite. He is suppose to be a meaning of love, but now he ONLY BRINGS LOVE IF YOU WORSHIP HIM, AND HE LIKES YOU. Sounds like Sadaam! Why not start worshipping him...

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a truely powerful god WOULD smite, to show that he is truely powerful, and to show that if you mess w/ him/her/it you're screwed

we dont worship saddam cuz he cant punish me, or help me, in any possible way.. God, on the other hand, can

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Last year, the two guys who lived next to me had a bit of a run-in with God. One of the guys was listening to music, and the other was pissed off at the world for whatever reason. Anyway, the pissed off guy opens the window and shouts "FUCK YOU, GOD!". Immediately the stereo stopped working. The guy who was listening to music was pissed. "Good job asshole, God just broke my stereo". It was funny. :roll:

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