Snos as he signs here harrases noobs againt the rules

[peino]

About Robotbob's questions and Aislinn's answers, I'd like to post a few comments from the non-summoner's point of view. I think this is actually on-topic because, aside from the private spat between Rayna and Snosrap, the topic is also kind of about players interfering with each other, even if it's by accident. So:

 

-- The way I read the rules, only IP restricts what kind of creatures you can summon in what places. So you can walk through VotD with a whole posse of yetis if you want to (and if you don't mind snarky people like me laughing at you ).

 

-- However, summoning is an very "interactive" part of the game. Even off PK maps, one player's summons can interfere with another player's game by killing mobs the other player is training on. Sometimes, this gets to the level of spawn serping. Summoners need to be aware of this. If they don't want to serp a spawn or endanger newbies, they need to herd their summoned pets responsibly.

 

-- When it comes to what's appropriate, and how much is too much, like Aislinn said -- use common sense, decide how you want to relate to the other people in the map, and brace yourself for whatever reaction you get.

 

4) isn't it the right of the newb to kill your summons for exp, the same as any perceived right to they remaining unharmed?

Ehhh tough one. As a mod: I guess yes they have a right to kill your summons. As a summoner: I think it is horrendously rude to do so. It's my creation, leave it alone! If you do kill somebody's summons without their permission, don't expect to be on their favorites list.

 

-- My take on this is that everybody in the game has the same right to play. I understand that summoning is hard and expensive to level and that it's fun to use not just in PK, but frankly, that doesn't give summoners any extra privileges to keep their stuff more than anyone else.

 

Newbies are always told that they just have to run the risks of the game, and if they lose their stuff, they need to not cry and just deal with it. Well, I say that summoners have to run the exact same risks and learn to deal the exact same way. -- If someone kills a summons by accident, that's nobody's fault. Regardless of how much it cost you to summon that animal, you risk losing it just like other players risk losing armor, weapons, CoLs, etc. -- If someone deliberately kills summons because they are interfering with his training, I say he's within his rights. You don't want your pets to get killed, don't let them interfere with other players. -- Even if someone decides to cast themselves as pet-killers just to screw with summoners -- that's obnoxious, but doesn't he have as much right under the rules to do that as scammers and BJers have to do what they do? It's just another "EL crime" that is a legitimate part of the game, imo. Let the community deal with that as outlaw behavior.

 

So I guess my bottom line is that summoners have the total right to use the skill they worked hard on, but not without risks, and not with expecting everyone else to get out of their way as if summoned pets are sacred somehow.

 

5) If I see someone die to a monster, is it not bjing -if- I was the person who created\made it enter the game? Or is it now just free to take and not bjing?

Fortunately not a mod question I believe in the doctirine of "if it's in a bag for any reason including unintentional death or tp-ing off a harvest bag, it's fair game for everyone else". However, I think that if somebody died to my summons for any reason other than my summoning it in a pk map to intentionally pk someone, I would do the "right thing" and return the bag's contents. That said, I wouldn't be posting in outlaws if somebody didn't, it's still a deathbag and if you get it back you are VERY lucky.

I think summoning is kind of a special case. It's not like just seeing someone get killed by a monster and taking their DB because the summoner indirectly caused their death by summoning the creature in the first place. It's like if people are using mines and innocent non-combatants get killed by the blast -- the people setting the mines indirectly caused those deaths even if they weren't targeting those people. Now, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, this is just another form of PK. With summoning, it lets you bring PK out of PK maps because it lets you essentially try to lure or trap people into clicking things that are very likely to kill them. It's not against the rules at all, but it's not friendly play, either.

 

So, IN MY OPINION ONLY, if you summon strong creatures to hunt for you, and they kill a weaker player outside of a PK map, you have the right to take their DB, but if you do, then you can't complain if you get branded as a murderer/BJer type character because you created the danger in the first place.

 

For example, referring to the topic, pumas aren't that strong, but they are a good step up from wolves. A lot of wolf-beginner newbies are going to die if they hit a puma. Snosrap deliberately summons pumas in a wolf spawn used by newbies for training. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Rayna, she would not have died except for Snosrap's actions. And then Snosrap kept her DB, which looks like taking a trophy, as if he was glad to have killed a player in a non-PK area. With all that in mind, regardless of who was ruder or who started what first, I think Snosrap made himself look like a "villain" - someone who deliberately picks on newbies. Even if that is not his intention, that's how it looks. He's within his rights under the rules to play that way, but I don't think he can legitimately complain if he gets a bad rep for it.

[Aislinn]

-- The way I read the rules, only IP restricts what kind of creatures you can summon in what places. So you can walk through VotD with a whole posse of yetis if you want to (and if you don't mind snarky people like me laughing at you ).

This statement will not always be an accurate one, as it does not take into account the special circumstances also outlined in the rule. Specifically, if you look at the part about crowded places, it lists examples, the list is not all inclusive. "Crowded" is a relative term, it also is a fluid situation. Votd may be crowded one day and empty the next. Summoning 1 monster and sitting at the map exit is different than 10. So many variables are possible. It is impossible to give a blanket yes or no on this statement.

 

Also note in the rule it states that if the summoning is causing problems "such as but not limited to", a mod should be called and the situation evaluated. That means that we as mods understand that circumstances and situations change and that each case that is not laid out in purple and white in your rule window still may have consequences if it is found to be a given problem at a given time. They could be serious consequences or they could be a simple request to move to a new location. It also means we can never predict all situations that can occur and we expect we will be needed to be called in to handle something that has never come up before.

 

I think this is why official answers were requested. People want to know what they can expect for certain things. Common sense and courtesy are the keywords here. If you use them, there won't be issues. If you abuse them, there will be issues and mods will have to step in.

[Vanyel]

From my point of view there is nothing wrong in summoning so-called 'high level creatures' at wolf spawns in Mynadar. I can think of few quite good reasons to do it.

I don't see many significant differences between Mynadar and Nordcarn. Restricting summoning in first should be extended to the second. Then, though, why not to extend it for Portland, etc.

Showing off is quite an important part of summoning as well. Limitting summoners to completely deserted areas, summoning arenas or PK areas would take off some part of fun in it, wouldn't it?

Common sense is a wonderful virtue, yet, difficult to define. I see some good reasons for summoning a yeti in Mynadar to get some wolves killed, some others say it's unfair. Others may get hurt. Others should know better not to click on my yeti, right? I don't see any reason to summon more than one yeti, though. Does summoning two mean lack of common sense? I honestly don't know. In my opinion, yes. It is wasting resources.

I used to do some summoning. Pretty fun to summon few wolves and make them follow you around, isn't it? I believe it would be even more fun to have a bunch of yeti running after me. Considering it, I'm against any restrictions as of type of summoned creatures in any other area than Isla Prima and its insides. Personally, I wouldn't say a word to a person with a single yeti in Mynadar (maybe except warning such a person not to take his/her yeti anywhere near storage). Personally, I'd get pretty upset with a person having 20 rabbits in the same place, though. Most probably I'd ask to limit the number to avoid lags.

[wilbur_whateley]

From my point of view there is nothing wrong in summoning so-called 'high level creatures' at wolf spawns in Mynadar. I can think of few quite good reasons to do it.

I don't see many significant differences between Mynadar and Nordcarn. Restricting summoning in first should be extended to the second. Then, though, why not to extend it for Portland, etc.

 

Ok, I understand your point of view and I agree to the fact that restricting summoning is not a solution to the problem. In my opinion, the problem is not the strength of summoned creatures. Summoning creatures in certain areas (for example: at the wolf spawn points in Votd) drastically decrease the possibilities of a/d training for newbies. For example, a summoner could make use of summoned creatures in order to occupy indiscriminately all the spawn points in that place... There should be better ethical/social rules about summoning. Actually a trainer can't do anything against the summoned creatures (If someone tries to kill a summoned creature becomes an outlaw..). I hope that you understand my point of view.. I have nothing against summoners, but - as for the spawn serping social rule - there should be a similar rule that should applay also in these situations.

[peino]

Why can't the regular unofficial community rule about spawn serping apply to summoners?

[Shujral]

Because then we would have to argue about who was there first? A decent question though, maybe we'll here some insight on that point.

[Aislinn]

Why can't the regular unofficial community rule about spawn serping apply to summoners?

Umm they can, I wasn't commenting on that portion of your post, I quoted the issue. It just confuses people when players state their opinions on the game rules, as they aren't always accurate.

[Vanyel]

Actually a trainer can't do anything against the summoned creatures (If someone tries to kill a summoned creature becomes an outlaw..)

 

Actually I completely don't understand why killing someone's summons would make anybody an outlaw. I find it rather two way trade. One uses one's summons to get materials for his training, one agrees on others killing his summon for training purpose. Summoners aren't sacred cows and EL is not India. No risk, no gain. Applies here as well as in PK areas.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Vanyel

[Tempest]

Summoners aren't saint cows and EL is not India.

u never saw me in mi new tailoring outfit

[peino]

Umm they can, I wasn't commenting on that portion of your post, I quoted the issue. It just confuses people when players state their opinions on the game rules, as they aren't always accurate.

You're right about that, Aislinn, of course. I'm not going to comment about the official rules again here. My comment was referring to Wilbur_Whateley's thoughts about the unofficial community rules and whether they apply to summoners, so we're in agreement on that, I guess.