Bush to veto waterboarding ban

[ville-v]

to make fun of the American nation

This one, but don't tell anyone

[Ateh]

Well, for anyone who isnt exactly clear that Water Boarding is/was a War Crime, heres something to start us off with :

 

http://lawofwar.org/what's_new.htm

 

Sorry to have to point you in the direction of the truth

[extrapolation]

BTW, didn't Jesus say: "He who takes the sword should perish by the sword"?

So if you are a Christian, or adhere to the Christian doctrine, shouldn't you at the very least HOPE that those who torture will themselves be tortured?

 

No:

Matthew 26:52 (New King James Version)

But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

 

There is a very important difference between 'should' and 'will' - not everything that happens on earth is right in God's eyes (obviously), so not all things that will happen should happen.

 

Jesus wasn't giving a teaching here about justice, he was saying that Christians should not get involved in violence/war/whatever.

 

YES torture is wrong imo, but at the very least you can't use this passage from the Bible to say torturers deserve to be tortured

[peino]

to make fun of the American nation

This one, but don't tell anyone

I got it (even though I'm an American).

 

A NOTE FOR V-VILLE AND ALL EL SATIRISTS:

 

Tone of voice, facial expressions and hand gestures do not carry over the internet. Not everyone is familiar with the coded catch phrases and paranoid propaganda of the crazy American radical rightwing to recognize when they are being used as a joke. The crazy American radical rightwing actually does believe that shit and actually does say almost exactly that shit, only they are serious!

 

If you don't include some kind of smilie or /sarcasm/ or /satire/ indicator in your posts, people will think you are one of the crazies, not that you are making fun of the crazies.

 

Oh, and NOTE JUST FOR V-VILLE: Please don't tar all Americans with the same brush. Not all Americans believe that shit. In fact, only about 25% - 30% of Americans believe even a little of that shit. The rest of us want to put an end to it but our government system does not give us a way to do it before the general election. Imo, that is the single greatest failing of the US Constitution, that it does not give a way to force a replacement of an administration by special election.

Edited March 12, 2008 by peino

[ville-v]

If you don't include some kind of smilie or /sarcasm/ or /satire/ indicator in your posts, people will think you are one of the crazies, not that you are making fun of the crazies.

And then I am laughing at them and posting more sarcasm

[Entropy]

No:

Matthew 26:52 (New King James Version)

But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

 

There is a very important difference between 'should' and 'will' - not everything that happens on earth is right in God's eyes (obviously), so not all things that will happen should happen.

No

There are many translations of the Bible, for example:

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

(King James Version)

Anyway, whatever happens happens because God wants it to happen, otherwise an omnipotent, omniscient creature like God would prevent it from happening.

 

 

Jesus wasn't giving a teaching here about justice, he was saying that Christians should not get involved in violence/war/whatever.

YES torture is wrong imo, but at the very least you can't use this passage from the Bible to say torturers deserve to be tortured

I think Jesus was teaching them about the concept of karma too. Of course, karma is slightly incompatible with the Christian religion (afterall, he died for your sins, for your bad karma). But in his teachings, Jesus did say that some groups of people are very unlikely to go to heaven, such as the rich people (because they did a lot of bad shit). So even he teaches that there are consequences for bad things.

[bkc56]

Anyway, whatever happens happens because God wants it to happen, otherwise an omnipotent, omniscient creature like God would prevent it from happening.

The concept of free-will changes the would to a could. So everyone is still responsible for their own actions.

 

Jesus did say that some groups of people are very unlikely to go to heaven, such as the rich people (because they did a lot of bad shit).

It had nothing to do with what they'd done, but rather their attitude and heart. Some people are simply less willing to admit they need help outside of themselves.

 

So even he teaches that there are consequences for bad things.

Absolutely true. But it's not our place to suggest what those consequences should be (as some in this thread have done).

[Euric]

offtopic:

who here believes 9/11 was a false flag operation staged to invade afganistan and iraq?... many christans went to fight in iraq to so called liberate the people and kill the evil terrorists in the name of g-d, the same g-d who said you shall not murder, and not to use his name in vain. how many countless civilians people like your brothers your mothers your fathers were butchered, people like you... mutilated by varius weapons.... how much debt was generated by the iraq war?, this is how the federal reserve and its banks make money. sorry if this offends anybody but i personally think most soldiers in iraq are nothing but brainwashed murderous slaves. and the people who use torture aka CIA are just peons operating under the govt which itself operates under the people who control our money supply.

 

if you think im wrong, im up for insight and debate to change my opinions

[Entropy]

offtopic:

who here believes 9/11 was a false flag operation staged to invade afganistan and iraq?... many christans went to fight in iraq to so called liberate the people and kill the evil terrorists in the name of g-d, the same g-d who said you shall not murder, and not to use his name in vain. how many countless civilians people like your brothers your mothers your fathers were butchered, people like you... mutilated by varius weapons.... how much debt was generated by the iraq war?, this is how the federal reserve and its banks make money. sorry if this offends anybody but i personally think most soldiers in iraq are nothing but brainwashed murderous slaves. and the people who use torture aka CIA are just peons operating under the govt which itself operates under the people who control our money supply.

 

if you think im wrong, im up for insight and debate to change my opinions

 

Well, I used to beleive that too, until a few days ago when I've seen a Bill Maher clip on Youtube, where he said something like:

"Let's get this straight, Sadam was not behind 9/11. And Neither was Bush. How do we know it wasn't Bush? Because it worked. And it took planning"

Of course, he is a comedian, but he makes a very valid point, I don't thik Bush had the brains to stage (and succede) in such a coplex false flag operation.

[Ateh]

Euric i'm glad you brought it up and its good to see you got yourself informed.

 

Apart from the bit about soldiers being murderous slaves, i'm with you 100%. The War on Terrorism is only the beggining of a much larger scale plan to Implement a World Government , a World Currency and a One World Army.

 

If that happens to be introduced by the same mind set that is currently running the show, well were fucked to put it bluntly.

 

I can provide oodles of information for anyone wishing to suspend thier conditioned acceptance of reality and actually dig into the truth movement.

 

However, its not really a good idea to look into these things if you are not willing to go where the evidence takes you. Better instead to turn on the football , open a beer and pretend its all ok.

[Entropy]

Anyway, whatever happens happens because God wants it to happen, otherwise an omnipotent, omniscient creature like God would prevent it from happening.

The concept of free-will changes the would to a could. So everyone is still responsible for their own actions.

 

If God knows everything (like an omniscient creature does), there is no room for coulds. He knows even the precise time the world will end, so he knew how the universe will behave even before he created it. God is outside the time, he sees all the time at a glance, so he can't not know the future, therefore he is satisfied with how the world is, otherwise he would have created it in a different way.

 

Jesus did say that some groups of people are very unlikely to go to heaven, such as the rich people (because they did a lot of bad shit).

It had nothing to do with what they'd done, but rather their attitude and heart. Some people are simply less willing to admit they need help outside of themselves.

Hmm, I am not sure about it. I mean, yes, it is possible that it has to do with the attitude and the heart, but do you think that Bush, when he vetoed that bill, had a an attitude and heart that God liked?

 

So even he teaches that there are consequences for bad things.

Absolutely true. But it's not our place to suggest what those consequences should be (as some in this thread have done).

I don't remember the exact quotes, but people asked Jesus why isn't he doing something about the Romans invading Israel (same as we do in Iraq), and Jesus said that those are human business, and he transcends that. Give the Ceasar what belongs to the Ceasar.

[Ateh]

offtopic:

who here believes 9/11 was a false flag operation staged to invade afganistan and iraq?... many christans went to fight in iraq to so called liberate the people and kill the evil terrorists in the name of g-d, the same g-d who said you shall not murder, and not to use his name in vain. how many countless civilians people like your brothers your mothers your fathers were butchered, people like you... mutilated by varius weapons.... how much debt was generated by the iraq war?, this is how the federal reserve and its banks make money. sorry if this offends anybody but i personally think most soldiers in iraq are nothing but brainwashed murderous slaves. and the people who use torture aka CIA are just peons operating under the govt which itself operates under the people who control our money supply.

 

if you think im wrong, im up for insight and debate to change my opinions

 

Well, I used to beleive that too, until a few days ago when I've seen a Bill Maher clip on Youtube, where he said something like:

"Let's get this straight, Sadam was not behind 9/11. And Neither was Bush. How do we know it wasn't Bush? Because it worked. And it took planning"

Of course, he is a comedian, but he makes a very valid point, I don't thik Bush had the brains to stage (and succede) in such a coplex false flag operation.

 

Perhaps Bush had nothing to do with planning it Ent, in fact I doubt he has planned anything more than a fishing trip during his terms in office

 

* edit * this isnt directed towards anyone in particular but I thought i'd stick it in the edit instead of making a new post.

 

Please take 2 hours of your life to watch this Film, it's very informative and could possibly open your mind to new subjects, if you like expanding your intelect that is ......

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

Edited March 12, 2008 by Ateh

[peino]

If you don't include some kind of smilie or /sarcasm/ or /satire/ indicator in your posts, people will think you are one of the crazies, not that you are making fun of the crazies.

And then I am laughing at them and posting more sarcasm

In other words, you're just trolling, like Ent said. I had no reason not to believe him, but I wanted to see it for myself.

 

Since, as a troll, you're not interested in serious discussion, I'll just ignore you. 'Bye.

[firstnite]

yes we american are evil.

 

we invaded a country in fact serveral to get hilter who murdered millions, and if we had not, chances are none of you guys whould have the freedom to post here or even be alive. or stalin who also killed million, or the "other" leader following there laws/ that have killed uncounted million in the name of "laws"

 

the dark ages saw a number of popes kill in the name of god, i good reason they call it the dark ages

 

you guys line up to get into the states,,, so yes we are evil

 

are we prefect no far from it but so far better than other goverments, personal i whould rather we had stayed in our own country so all we whould need to learn is 4 lanugages english,german jappanize and russain and not 250+ i beleive at last count

 

so use your freedum wisely you never know how long it will last

 

so i cant say i agree that waterbroading is right, but if i have to chose between waterbraoding a few hundred people or having them kill 100's of thousands iam sry but i chose WB. if there other ways iam all for it but if that what it takes , well that what it takes.

 

on a last note i feel sry if someone here cant talk about this in a sane and calm manor. anger magement maybe ? just becasue someone does not agree with your point of view that does not make him a asshole no matter how many times your repete it

[Entropy]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

 

I started to watch that piece of shit a few months ago, but had to stop after about 10 minutes, it was a total waste of time. It has some severe innccuracies right from the beginning (for example, saying that a LOT of people/mythical creatures in the history were born of a virgin, crucified and ressurected. That's total bullshit, and if you don't believe me, look at the big list of names that scrolls down the screen, then look for them in some Encyclopedia or something.

Also, that arrogant idiot who made that video beleive that all languages sound like English, for example when he tried to make the point "Jesus is the SON of god, and SON sounds like SUN, get it? haha im so smart lol".

[Entropy]

yes we american are evil.

 

we invaded a country in fact serveral to get hilter who murdered millions, and if we had not, chances are none of you guys whould have the freedom to post here or even be alive. or stalin who also killed million, or the "other" leader following there laws/ that have killed uncounted million in the name of "laws"

 

So if my grandfather saved your mother 40 years ago, that means I can rape your daughter and it's all ok, yes?

[JohnnyFrog]

invading iraq had very little to do with saving the people who lived there from a brutal dictatorship and a lot more to do with making certain people very rich from oil revenues and defence contracts...

[anima]

So you have to see waterboarding is not torturing, but waterboarding, a legal action after all, because performed by the legal performer, not illegal at all, because the leader has been elected following the spirits of laws and democracy.

 

i wont recommend you read the geneva convention, its probably all too complicated for your simple brain, but i will let you know that waterboarding is illegal, it says it in there and since the definition of illegal is made by the law, not by opinion, there are no two ways about it, waterboarding is illegal.

 

the geneva convention applies to all actions both in and conducted by its signatries, shipping terror suspects to egypt and elsewhere to torture is not a way around the law, it is still illegal.

 

@ firstnite:

 

can you tell me the dates and details of the war between america and stalin, it seems to have been COMPLETELEY removed from all textbooks and records in my country, let me know asap so i can let the record keepers know pls.

Edited March 12, 2008 by anima

[Sikaflex]

yes we american are evil.

 

we invaded a country in fact serveral to get hilter who murdered millions, and if we had not, chances are none of you guys whould have the freedom to post here or even be alive. or stalin who also killed million, or the "other" leader following there laws/ that have killed uncounted million in the name of "laws"

 

Please clarify. Are you saying that you think you invaded countries to "get" Stalin? That's total news to me, and quite some others as well - as far as rest of the world is concerned, Stalin died in Moscow in 1953, maybe of natural reasons, maybe poisoned by Soviets themselves.

 

And, if you didn't know, modern wars are fought because of capital interests. The "right"/"wrong" bullshit is there only to make the people think there're ethical reasons behind the stuff when true reasons are always commercial.

 

are we prefect no far from it but so far better than other goverments, personal i whould rather we had stayed in our own country so all we whould need to learn is 4 lanugages english,german jappanize and russain and not 250+ i beleive at last count

 

so use your freedum wisely you never know how long it will last

 

so i cant say i agree that waterbroading is right, but if i have to chose between waterbraoding a few hundred people or having them kill 100's of thousands iam sry but i chose WB. if there other ways iam all for it but if that what it takes , well that what it takes.

 

I don't have details on the exact waterboarding procedure they're using, if there even is one. But anyway, imagine being a "wrong place at wrong time" person getting waterboarded for hours, days, weeks genuinely not knowing anything about the matter. And anyway it's against the Genova Convention as Entropy pointed out earlier. The "what it takes" argument just doesn't work. Like, one way to get rid of religious terrorism would indeed be to eliminate all religious people - that's what it takes?

 

Oh, and a disclaimer: I'm not anti-American, not at all. I'm just anti-idiot.

 

edit: wrote Kreml, meant Moscow

Edited March 12, 2008 by Sikaflex

[Euric]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

 

I started to watch that piece of shit a few months ago, but had to stop after about 10 minutes, it was a total waste of time. It has some severe innccuracies right from the beginning (for example, saying that a LOT of people/mythical creatures in the history were born of a virgin, crucified and ressurected. That's total bullshit, and if you don't believe me, look at the big list of names that scrolls down the screen, then look for them in some Encyclopedia or something.

Also, that arrogant idiot who made that video beleive that all languages sound like English, for example when he tried to make the point "Jesus is the SON of god, and SON sounds like SUN, get it? haha im so smart lol".

 

 

this is why when i show zeitgeist to people i only tell them to watch parts 2 and 3 then part 1 last.. radu... tell me did you watch parts 2 and 3??? also i saw the whole film parts 1 2 an 3 and i read the whole bible. part 1 is the reason why most people turn off this film right away.... becuase it has lots of things and information that cannot be ultimatly accounted for, and they generaly feel annoyed. btw i my self do believe in God, and his son. i have diliberated to much in my brain with my self after examining the movie and reading the bible to think otherwise.

 

i really urge you everyone to watch the whole movie. even at least part 2 and 3

[firstnite]

yes we american are evil.

 

we invaded a country in fact serveral to get hilter who murdered millions, and if we had not, chances are none of you guys whould have the freedom to post here or even be alive. or stalin who also killed million, or the "other" leader following there laws/ that have killed uncounted million in the name of "laws"

 

So if my grandfather saved your mother 40 years ago, that means I can rape your daughter and it's all ok, yes?

 

iam not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in japan

but ok sure if she knew were the bomb was that whould kill 50,000 and rapeing her was the only ways to get the info from her. now if all you raped her just becasue you chould and nothing was gained then no it whould not be right. that whould be an abuse of power.

 

its never easy to do the best thing and the best thing is not alway right but it still the best. blowing up 200,000 people in japan was not the right thing to do but it was the best thing.

i know you try to get a knee jerk reaction but you need to do better than that :-)

[firstnite]

can you tell me the dates and details of the war between america and stalin, it seems to have been COMPLETELEY removed from all textbooks and records in my country, let me know asap so i can let the record keepers know pls.

 

lol yes i was wondering if any one whould pick up on this and of cousre you are right we never invaded the USSR all we did was stop hitler from doing it and then 30 year of the cold war. my main point was that million were killed in the name of "laws" and doing the right thing from stalin point of view and for the motherhood of russia. and just saying some thing good does not make it so, that goes for the usa as well. mistakes happen and thing happen in the name of "doing the right thing"

[Entropy]

but ok sure if she knew were the bomb was that whould kill 50,000 and rapeing her was the only ways to get the info from her. now if all you raped her just becasue you chould and nothing was gained then no it whould not be right. that whould be an abuse of power.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem rapeing or torturing someone that knows where the bombs that would kill 50K people are. I think that some people deserve to be tortured, but like I said, I have a few problems with it:

1. If you sign an international convention/treaty that forbids torture, you should either abide by the terms of the treaty, or get out of the treaty.

2. If you torture people, you don't have the moral high ground to 'liberate' others.

3. You better make sure you torture the right person. How do you know if someone has the information for sure? What if you torture innocents? How would you feel if your daughter was raped in order to be coerced to give information she doesn't have?

[Sikaflex]

lol yes i was wondering if any one whould pick up on this and of cousre you are right we never invaded the USSR all we did was stop hitler from doing it and then 30 year of the cold war. my main point was that million were killed in the name of "laws" and doing the right thing from stalin point of view and for the motherhood of russia. and just saying some thing good does not make it so, that goes for the usa as well. mistakes happen and thing happen in the name of "doing the right thing"

 

You did not stop Hitler from invading Russia. That was done by Mother Nature. Instead, you prevented him from invading British isles and pushed him away from France and Italy.

[Entropy]

this is why when i show zeitgeist to people i only tell them to watch parts 2 and 3 then part 1 last.. radu... tell me did you watch parts 2 and 3??? also i saw the whole film parts 1 2 an 3 and i read the whole bible. part 1 is the reason why most people turn off this film right away.... becuase it has lots of things and information that cannot be ultimatly accounted for, and they generaly feel annoyed. btw i my self do believe in God, and his son. i have diliberated to much in my brain with my self after examining the movie and reading the bible to think otherwise.

 

i really urge you everyone to watch the whole movie. even at least part 2 and 3

 

Well, the problem is, if the first part is so blatantly innacurate and biased, what credibility do the other parts have?

Now, I am not saying that there is no seed of truth in the first part, religion has been used to manipulate people. It was also used to commit atrocities. But so was science. The Nazi and Japanese experiments during WW2, the US experiments with nukes during and after WW2, the development of more and more lethal weapons, all this done by the science, for the science.

So what the author is saying in the first part is basically: Lol religion is the suckz because i am an atheists roflamo!11!.

 

I did/do watch a lot of documentaries or pseudo documentaries such as "Loose change". There were many innacuracies in Loose Change as well.

The only 'conspiracy' that makes sense to me is the Federal Reserve bullshit, I can't believe that most of the people have no clue about it, and they don't care enough about it to elect the right guy.