KF forts

[conavar]

The forthcoming "archery" update got me thinking about KF and pk on that map in general.

 

atm pk = " all stand at entrance, gang who ever comes in, repeat until people are fed up of entering the map to get ganged , leave, new group takes over etc etc "

 

90% of the map is unused

 

Now the idea might be totally impossible to programme but maybe if each KF Fort gave players a bonus for being inside them then we all wouldnt hog the entrance's

 

The bonuses would differ for each of the forts and could be anything from increase in a/d or p/c to protection from arrows etc ( just examples . feel free to post your own).

 

The bonuses would work best if on a time limit: ie: need to have been in the fort for 5mins to get the bonus

 

 

note: downside KF would end up with 3 groups all sitting in forts not doing anything

 

 

thoughts

 

 

 

edit: the bonuses would have to be enough to make the forts enticing but not enough as to overpower the players in them

Edited January 16, 2008 by conavar

[snoozy]

exp boost 5% a/d = more pvp = more fights

[Vanyel]

exp boost 5% a/d = more pvp = more fights

 

Yeah sure. Just ask for free xp then.

[brettmck]

well i wouldnt say it was free exp really imagine if people actually pvped in kf instead of guild maps it would give people other than pkers a reason to go into kf might liven up pk a bit

[robotbob]

 

90% of the map is unused

 

Now the idea might be totally impossible to programme but maybe if each KF Fort gave players a bonus for being inside them then we all wouldnt hog the entrance's

 

note: downside KF would end up with 3 groups all sitting in forts not doing anything

 

 

I do think most people fight up front because of the lack of trees

 

I'm for any ideas to increase pk traffic. But how does this change anything?

Wouldn't players just 'hog' the forts instead?

 

I've been hoping for a Joker-like Gicu that appears in pk maps and if you kill its can drop something nice.

At least it gives a per hour something to hunt for in the maps. Maybe a random sweet item in the merc bags.

 

But from the recent attempt to make a 'fight club' it apparent that the main problem is people want to

both fight and have zero risk of dying. Instead of becoming a fight club it became "Friendly Fight Club" or

"Sparring Club".

 

For those that claim people PK on NDD because of the lower costs are deluding themselves. I spend far

more GC pking on NDD than any other day. Its not rostos, but in essence, potions, damaged armor.

 

But you are right, maybe the map needs obstacles that an Archer can fire from. Albeit they only count

if you cannot cast teleport to range.

[xenkoriu]

I think PKers simply need to stop complaining about dying and messing up there PK scores and just enjoy the PKing itself. This may never happen, but it seems the only way to help solve the problem.

[Vanyel]

I think PKers simply need to stop complaining about dying and messing up there PK scores and just enjoy the PKing itself. This may never happen, but it seems the only way to help solve the problem.

 

I couldn't agree more with it. Just couldn't.

[conavar]

I think PKers simply need to stop complaining about dying and messing up there PK scores and just enjoy the PKing itself. This may never happen, but it seems the only way to help solve the problem.

 

This idea to be honest isnt to try and get differant people to pk, its about trying to make the map more interesting for those who do pk.

And I dont think anyone was " complaining " in this thread (so far)

Edited January 17, 2008 by conavar

[Kaddy]

Well i think PK is a bit got more attraction after caps.

 

But for more interesting i have an idea.

 

About forts as the thread. But its kinda different. I told it to Ent too but he is offline atm. Its about a/d caps in forts. IMO i think it will be very nice to have forts some a/d level. There is 3 forts in KF and we can make 1. 70's 2. 90's and last one 110's. Unlike other improvements to make PK active this idea will totally take all PK traffic into KF. As we will (i dunno its done yet) have 2 more a/d capped arenas in different maps, I think it will seperate people to go different maps for PK. But with my idea everyone will come KF in every levels of a/d.

 

Well in order to keep the low levels safe until they go to the forts, maybe it can be some non-attack patches to there...

 

Thats my idea about forts.

 

Thoughts?

[Zamirah]

The forthcoming "archery" update got me thinking about KF and pk on that map in general.

 

atm pk = " all stand at entrance, gang who ever comes in, repeat until people are fed up of entering the map to get ganged , leave, new group takes over etc etc "

 

90% of the map is unused

 

The bonuses would differ for each of the forts and could be anything from increase in a/d or p/c to protection from arrows etc ( just examples . feel free to post your own).

 

The bonuses would work best if on a time limit: ie: need to have been in the fort for 5mins to get the bonus

 

all stand at entrance -

because it's near storage.

I use to check mercury, tele point and back to VOTD.

 

90% of the map is unused -

I'm too lazy to go check DP side, DP storage is too far away.

 

need to have been in the fort for 5mins -

I would not stand in an empty fort 5 min and wait for someone that might come.

 

Yes, I know, I'm lazy, I think I'm not the only.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Zamirah

[conavar]

So you would be to lazy to walk from the C2 >> KF boat you suggested ?

[Zamirah]

So you would be to lazy to walk from the C2 >> KF boat you suggested ?

No, I'm often mixing at Thelinor storage and I'm not the only.

It would be like going in from VOTD storage.

But I would still only check the same part of KF.

So the boat should be in western part of KF.

[Wynand]

For those that claim people PK on NDD because of the lower costs are deluding themselves. I spend far

more GC pking on NDD than any other day. Its not rostos, but in essence, potions, damaged armor.

 

 

Well i'm not sure if I spend 16kgc on every no drops, but I guess I atleast break 1-2 capes so its possible. But how many times to you get to fight/kill/die on NDD? vs just fighting a few times and dying once on normal day and then losing 16kgc, and after that the fun is all over and you go back to harving for a new rosto? You are right, PK'ing is not too active because people don't want to die, which is the aim of Player Killing maps, but if they lose 16k everytime you cannot blame them.

 

Now i'm not complaining about rosto's since they do serve a good purpose, but there is something wrong with them in PK... It makes no sense to go into place where you can only lose, and gain nothing. Now everyone will say 'well if PK'ing without a rosto is so popular, why is TD so empty?' Well thats simple, since there are really high level players who run around with their dragon armour/thermal serps/cooling sabers, and the ordinary guy who is out there just looking for some fun cannot contend against them with their aug leather armour and titanium long... and the few people who do go inside with their expensive gear HAVE to diss/tele instead of dying, since losing 100k+ is no fun, so its still the same problem ... NOBODY want to die ,or come back after they died the first time (*hint* maybe a nexus cap in TD? *hint*).

 

I know what ive said has been said countless times before, and that nothing I say makes a difference... it just makes me feel better to say it every now and then.

[korrode]

In the other MMO i play, there is a constant PK war going on. never ending, always fighting.

 

When you die in that game, your attributes are reduced for a few minutes and you lose PK points (they dont call it PK points, but similar deal).

 

Imagine if dropping items when you die was abolished? Permanent no drops.

Perhaps EL would constantly have people in PK too.

 

Ent wouldn't make anymore $$ from rosto sales in the shop.

 

People who PK for gear drops would never go for it (but really, its soo rare that people will go in PK with good gear and no rosto; eg. how many people use TD?)

 

People will say to me "there should be some decent penalty when you die", and they feel strongly about that...

 

But the other game i play is about as popular as EL, and it's continuing to grow, people love playing it....

 

I go in PK often, on normal #days, i am not afraid of losing a rosto or fighting people stronger than me... but i still think if EL was changed so u didnt drop items when you die, it would be for the better.

 

Heaps of people will disagree i know, but that is my opinion.

[conavar]

I totally agree with you Korrode. Which is why in another topic I suggested a full time No drop map for pk.. and Ent would stil make dollars from rosts because the rest of EL would still be drop endabled and ppl would use them for invasions/training mobs.

 

be nice to now the stats between rosts used in pk and rosts used in other areas..

[Zamirah]

Yes, you'r right.

How many are on the PK-server now, it's rare I see more than 50.

i think a no-drop pk-server would be full of people, I would for sure go there.

 

And more thermal serps would be sold.

I don't really see a reason to buy one now.

Some rare. expensive armor could be sold too.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Zamirah

[Khalai]

In the other MMO i play, there is a constant PK war going on. never ending, always fighting.

 

When you die in that game, your attributes are reduced for a few minutes and you lose PK points (they dont call it PK points, but similar deal).

 

Imagine if dropping items when you die was abolished? Permanent no drops.

Perhaps EL would constantly have people in PK too.

 

Ent wouldn't make anymore $$ from rosto sales in the shop.

 

People who PK for gear drops would never go for it (but really, its soo rare that people will go in PK with good gear and no rosto; eg. how many people use TD?)

 

People will say to me "there should be some decent penalty when you die", and they feel strongly about that...

 

But the other game i play is about as popular as EL, and it's continuing to grow, people love playing it....

 

I go in PK often, on normal #days, i am not afraid of losing a rosto or fighting people stronger than me... but i still think if EL was changed so u didnt drop items when you die, it would be for the better.

 

Heaps of people will disagree i know, but that is my opinion.

 

I agree with you. The proof is in NDD days. But then again, how would you financially support the game, if there is something like permanent no drop day on PK maps...

[Vanyel]

In the other MMO i play, there is a constant PK war going on. never ending, always fighting.

 

When you die in that game, your attributes are reduced for a few minutes and you lose PK points (they dont call it PK points, but similar deal).

 

Imagine if dropping items when you die was abolished? Permanent no drops.

Perhaps EL would constantly have people in PK too.

 

Ent wouldn't make anymore $$ from rosto sales in the shop.

 

People who PK for gear drops would never go for it (but really, its soo rare that people will go in PK with good gear and no rosto; eg. how many people use TD?)

 

People will say to me "there should be some decent penalty when you die", and they feel strongly about that...

 

But the other game i play is about as popular as EL, and it's continuing to grow, people love playing it....

 

I go in PK often, on normal #days, i am not afraid of losing a rosto or fighting people stronger than me... but i still think if EL was changed so u didnt drop items when you die, it would be for the better.

 

Heaps of people will disagree i know, but that is my opinion.

 

I agree with you. The proof is in NDD days. But then again, how would you financially support the game, if there is something like permanent no drop day on PK maps...

 

I think I've pointed it out in the mentioned thread, but permanent no drop = permanent no xp. No risk, no gain.

[peino]

Everybody knows I'm the person who always says I don't like PK, only PvP, but I'm also the person who always says that I would PK if PK was done differently in EL. I used to post only rarely in PK threads, but since the PK server started, I am more interested in changing PK in the main server now, because I figure people who like it the old way can go to the PK server. So, my thoughts are:

 

1- As Zamirah said, everybody just hangs around the KF/VotD entrance for convenience. It's near storage. It's also near everybody who tries to enter, making it easier to attack them. Zamirah even said that she'd want her KF/Thelinor boat placed in the same area for convenience. The solution is simple: Make it less convenient to stay there. Spread things around so that people have to walk around the map.

 

2- To let people get past the entrance before dying, how about putting two portals to different places near the entrance? The point is, a person enters the map, has to run and evade the big hitters hanging out at the entrance, and make for whatever portal they can get to first, and just hope it sends them to a place where another big hitter doesn't happen to be waiting. Even if the big hitters chase them through the portal, that means they won't still be hanging out at the entrance.

 

The point of having more than one portal is to discourage big hitters from just camping out at both ends of the portals. As Zamirah said, she's not willing to sit idle in a fort, hoping someone else comes along at the right time. I'm sure she's not alone. So I think very few PKers will want to guard a portal in the middle of the map, just in case someone they can kill comes through it.

 

3- If another reason people hang around the VotD entrance is that the lack of trees makes fighting easier, then let's plant some trees there. In fact, placement of trees, rocks, and other kinds of "cover" should be planned strategically in PK maps, imo. Think about it -- in RL warzones, the terrain is always a major part of strategy and tactics. A place that doesn't have usable cover and defendable attacking/retreating zones, as well as open battle/shooting areas, will not be used by either armies or bandits.

 

If the goal of PK maps is to get people PKing inside the maps, then the map should be edited to make fighting harder in some spots, easier in others, and to include features that can be used for escape and/or ambush, depending on who gets there first. The first step should be to make it harder to murder people within sight of the entrances. A lot of trees, big rocks, and some escape portals will increase both the challenges and the chances for people trying to get in and for people trying to stop them.

 

4- Another issue that a lot of people have mentioned a lot of times is attitude. I have to say that I think PKers have to decide what they want PK to be. Right now, EL is set up for two kinds of fighting, but only one kind is really being done.

 

The arenas are set up for people to just step up to each other, stand there and go at it. The arenas are the competitive sports centers, where it's all about player versus player (PvP!!), and where points are scored or lost, and where ranks can rise or fall fast, IF people play/fight fair.

 

The maps are the warzones, where anything goes, where many different tactics and strategies can be used, where terrains, environmental effects, and monsters affect the action, where there are treasures/resources/other reasons to risk the danger, etc.

 

The arenas are really best for stand-up fighting for points. PK maps are best for strategy-based war games.

 

But it seems like most EL PKers only want stand-up fighting for points, so they never actually use the features of the maps. They just pick the places where it's easiest to just stand and fight and make safe storage runs. Basically, they treat the PK maps just like arenas.

 

So I ask PKers (rhetorically), what do you want? Do you want to compete for points, or do you want to have warfare play? One is about competing/beating the other guy, the other is about strategy. They don't overlap a lot, so you have to pick one or the other, from day to day.

 

5- As for the high cost of PK, that solution is simple too. Use cheaper gear. Yes, it's true that certain players will always be camped out with full dragon-bling/etc that can beat anything else, but so what? Even they run the risk of losing that stuff by breaking, though it doesn't seem to bother them. If you think you can't stand up against them in cheaper gear, then find a way to avoid them instead. And if they kill you, at least you'd only lose cheap stuff.

 

I don't have much in the way of gear. The highest level stuff I have is full iron, mirror cloak, CoM, and a serp. I plan to add more as I get richer. But I reserve that stuff for PvE -- which means invasions, at my current level, and giant/dragon fighting when I get strong enough for that. There is no way I would risk it in PvP, which for me is just about training (hello, aug leather). (I use PvP for training the way PKers use monsters for training; or I would if... etc.) I don't rely on my gear, I use it only to make fighting easier, not to train myself (work on levels).

 

If there were any point for me to engage in warfare, I'd use better gear for that too. But if PK is just a bunch of jocks (sorry, but) whaling on each other and then running to storage to stash loot and get more gear, rinse, repeat, all day long, well, there's no point for me to do that. So, finally, that leads to...

 

6- Give a point to PK. Organize wargame events. Grant prizes and/or titles that winners can include in their gossip bios. Have some guild wars already. Let a PK guild move into one or more of those forts, declare it their headquarters, and challenge all comers to try and force them out (seige war). And so forth.

 

EDIT: Like this: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...mp;#entry414200

 

Or if all that sounds boring or too much trouble, then forget it. Just keep doing what you're doing because it's what you like to do, and quit bitching if not more people want to do it with you.

Edited January 17, 2008 by peino

[Khalai]

I think I've pointed it out in the mentioned thread, but permanent no drop = permanent no xp. No risk, no gain.

 

I doubt that someone is PKing for xp anyway.

[korrode]

I think I've pointed it out in the mentioned thread, but permanent no drop = permanent no xp. No risk, no gain.

So exp and drops only from monsters... i could live with that... but really Kheres, why remove the exp?

PvP'ers can still be killed... and they risk basically nothing as it is. If i go to PvP, i'm in full leather and just have some HE/SR on me... i'm not exactly gonna be crying if i die and drop some of it.

 

 

 

One is about competing/beating the other guy, the other is about strategy. They don't overlap a lot, so you have to pick one or the other, from day to day.

If you think there's no strategy in arena fighting, you're in for a big shock.

Weapon, armor, medallion, potion and spell selection all play a very big part, not to mention your attribute setup and the timing of summons to catch a diss.

Plenty of strategy in arena fighting

 

 

 

EDIT:

I doubt that someone is PKing for xp anyway.

I can only assume Kheres was referring to PvP training... on the off chance it was a reference to PK battle, yeah Khalai is right, no one cares about exp in those. Edited January 17, 2008 by Korrode

[trollson]

@peino Impressive analysis.

 

I don't PK in EL, it really doesn't interest me, pretty much for the reasons you describe. Done plenty of fighting in other games (and RL reenactment & martial arts), but now I need a reason, a casus belli, to spark and interest in a game. Some wider ingame consequences of the outcome, and a better combat system.

 

At the gates of death?

 

Its a shame that when you attack someone, they have to stand still until you walk over to them. It's an artifact of the game engine that you can't run away, or be chased, cornered, out maneuvered. The disengagement ring answers part of this, but is itself another artifact.

 

The "beam in" point for map entrances could hop around within an area larger than visual range. When a character steps through, if no one else has stepped through in the last (say) 5 seconds the focus point is randomly changed. Prevents ambushes on the PK side, keeps parties together, while limiting pinning the focus by hopping too and fro.

 

Where is the movement during combat?

 

Participants stand toe-to-toe and slug it out. Not very entertaining to watch. Unless you are pinned in a shield wall, a sword fight (etc) moves around quite a bit, as the participants dodge, advance, retreat. This is where terrain plays a part, as it limits movement and thus options.

 

Add movement/steps in response to successful dodge, attack (push-retreat), or disengagement attempts ('home' key). Penalise a character who cannot make the move due to terrain or other obsticles.

 

Movement in combat is responsive, not directed, so in long fights characters should spread out.

 

Consequences in the aftermath?

 

Consider guilds fighting in a PK map as trying to take control of the terratory. EL has limited world-state to play with. But if PK points earned/lost per guild was recorded per map, then this total could be used to affect NPC interactions with that guild and their allies. Effectively, your guild gains power in the area, and the NPCs respond to that. Treat the scores for guildless as either a separate guild, or a non-owning party.

 

If the guild scores are (vaguely) published, then it gives reason to attack people of specific guilds in a map. A form of casus belli?

Edited January 17, 2008 by trollson

[conavar]

I agree with you. The proof is in NDD days. But then again, how would you financially support the game, if there is something like permanent no drop day on PK maps...

 

It would only be ONE pk map, Rosto's would still be lost on all other pkmaps : lost in arena's, lost training monsters and lost during Invasions.

IMO and I might be wrong but I would hazard a guess that more rosto's are lost during Invasions than on pk maps ( be nice to know the stats) and as Zamirah said other items are sold from the shop and there is nothing stopping other unique items being added . ie: archery: atm 2 types of arrows : training and pk. differant sorts of arrows ( barbed , fire , blunt) could be sold only in the EL shop. They dont even need to be uber powerful just unique

 

 

 

 

I think I've pointed it out in the mentioned thread, but permanent no drop = permanent no xp. No risk, no gain.

 

No xp from mobs would be fine, to be honest remove them from the map , but xp from pvp is differant , proper pvp is "no risk" anyway.. you might accidently die sometimes but you get all you items back and on a map with the chance of getting killed by others its safer to use a guild map anyway.

[Khalai]

I agree with you. The proof is in NDD days. But then again, how would you financially support the game, if there is something like permanent no drop day on PK maps...

 

It would only be ONE pk map, Rosto's would still be lost on all other pkmaps : lost in arena's, lost training monsters and lost during Invasions.

IMO and I might be wrong but I would hazard a guess that more rosto's are lost during Invasions than on pk maps ( be nice to know the stats) and as Zamirah said other items are sold from the shop and there is nothing stopping other unique items being added . ie: archery: atm 2 types of arrows : training and pk. differant sorts of arrows ( barbed , fire , blunt) could be sold only in the EL shop. They dont even need to be uber powerful just unique.

 

I would bet 100kgc that if there was only one "no-drop-map", other PK maps would have been abandoned for good. Everyone would just be in this map. So one map or all of them doesn't really matters IMO.

[conavar]

I would bet 100kgc that if there was only one "no-drop-map", other PK maps would have been abandoned for good. Everyone would just be in this map. So one map or all of them doesn't really matters IMO.

 

not really... DP arena would still be used as lower a/d's players would like to fight against players of there own level instead of being killed all the time by uber pr0's ( the same as it is now on NDD's)