The strength of rationality

[Tauren]

Rationality is a cross-attribute therefore it needs 2 pickpoints to get one point in rationality. To max that out you need 88 pickpoints either in Reasoning or in Will (to max these two). But you still want to have some EMU, right? So you need also some points in Physics and/or Coordination to get a decent EMU.

Many of the ideas thrown around involve maxing out both rationality and will...with what seems to me to be many players not understanding the downside to this.

I didn't take this into consideration and now, since rationality most likely wont be maxed out, my concerns are pointless.

 

 

As for more FE production. that's out of the question for me;

1. I have made 44k FEs, and only gotten 1EFE (my rate SUCKS).

3. The more higher your alch is the less you fail, the less EFEs you get, and this is why I can't make many EFEs in the first place.

1. Maybe it has something to do with this? -

Entropy already said, that he is adjusting rates and drops continuously to balance. When there will be too many EFEs coming from FE production, he will simply raise the rate for making EFE.

3. This is not true. EFEs are "triggered" every time you create an FE, so if you keep failing the trigger rate is also decreased.

[Wizzy]

Of course if Magic Nexus was used in the propossed formulas it would not work. I am sure formulas can be changed to include magic nexus. I was never suggestion someone need 30 or 100 nexus. I suggested a max of 7.

 

Hmm, yeah, good idea. How about we also send a $50 Amazon gift card to all the players as well?

 

I do get the joke. I am not exactly sure why you made it. I am by no where looking for a free ride. Or to be hand held. I am just very curious and a bit concerned if rationality is the factor in magic power, and also (after P/C is maxed) reasoning...will not mage class and fighter class..end up with nearly identical builds so there isnt a difference between these two classes? I may be very wrong here, this is just a question no one has be able to awnser yet.. (though it is possible I did not understand compeltely)

 

I am sorry if I a flogging a dead hourse. I think the attribute cap is a great idea..I would just hate to see the reaming attributes so much more desired that we end up in the same boat as before a cap.

[Entropy]

Your suggestion of using only 7 PPs to decide your magic multiplier is.. well, I don't have words to describe it.

Basically what would happen if I do that is that all the fighters will put 7 points in the magic nexus (and as a bonus they can become pr0 crafters), and no problem is solved.

[Wizzy]

Your suggestion of using only 7 PPs to decide your magic multiplier is.. well, I don't have words to describe it.

Basically what would happen if I do that is that all the fighters will put 7 points in the magic nexus (and as a bonus they can become pr0 crafters), and no problem is solved.

 

True

I am not suggesting my formula is a good idea. My grade 10 math teacher would agree I am sure. Though I highly doubt many fighters would be willing to invest 7 pp in Magic nexus, and 4 or 5 in artifical to make the higher end crafter items. That being said, there is little in cross attributes that wont benifit fighters more so then a mage type build.. I guess I have only concerns, and no real soultion. I am not the sharpest thermal serp in the drawer. I would just hate to see reasoning become the new Coordination ..an absoute must have..if you want to pk.

[Entropy]

You will need to invest 96 PPs to get max reasoning (some of them help with other fighting aspects, and some don't), versus only 7 PPs as you propose.

[Wizzy]

You will need to invest 96 PPs to get max reasoning (some of them help with other fighting aspects, and some don't), versus only 7 PPs as you propose.

 

yes..you need 88 pp to max rationality. but neither mage nor fighter will do that..The bulk of everyones pp will go to P/C because emu Hit points and coordination is imprortant. so the remainder of PP people will spend on either will or reasoning. Thus there will be little difference in players builds..the very thing I think the attribute cap was trying to avoid. Like I said before I may be completely wrong.

[Entropy]

Some fighters claimed that the new trend is to max rationality, so we'll see.

[Vormavius]

Like I said before I may be completely wrong.

 

You ARE completely wrong (present tense).

I dont know how are distributed your pickpoints, and I dont know what overall you have. But since you consider everyone will take phys/coord/will/reasoning, maybe you will that too. After some days playing, you will figure out the deficiences your char will have

[Wizzy]

Like I said before I may be completely wrong.

 

You ARE completely wrong (present tense).I dont know how are distributed your pickpoints, and I dont know what overall you have. But since you consider everyone will take phys/coord/will/reasoning, maybe you will that too. After some days playing, you will figure out the deficiences your char will have

 

And thank you very much.....up untill now it has been easy to distribute PP

 

36P 82C 20V and a few nexus.

 

After the attribute cap, I am not certain..I have a few PP spare. I am only overall 118. I have only been playing for 6 months. I know teh top Pkers I have spoken to will maximize P/C/R and If I want to evently step toe to toe, I will have to match that.. (need to find a few dozen more nexus removal stones). I have only been asking a vailid question, Before a big change like this. is it not important to explore all possibilitys? If my concerns are unjust they that is fine. Isnt this what this debate is all about?

[Vormavius]

Yes it is Jumpy.

But just to use all of your pickpoints in just 3 or 4 attributes, will bring a severe consequence to your char. I was using the el-cel attributes calculator for almost 1 hour, and I'm not sure what I will make with the pickpoints I will get from the coord I have.

 

Basicly, all of the cross-attributes will be useful, and any neglect about any of them, your char will have an Achilles' heel (even top 10 playerso) that can be explored by your enemies.

[korrode]

Please don't let this desire for a mage class cause everyone to lose sight of why the attribute cap was so strongly needed in the first place.

This is the biggest thing worrying me atm. We manage to get the 48 cap through - hurrah for a 'fixed' PK situation...

and now we have the threat of what will be you're average PK'er player (say, a/d 90's - 110, ~50's mag, OA ~110-120, Rationality 12-14, 96-112 mana, no purchased nexus or pick points, and just a few more nexus than Human:7 and Inorg:2) not being able to restore more than ~50 health.... PK will be destroyed again, the players who are currently labeled "unkillable" will be the only people able to max out p/c/r/w (and possibly more attributes), and they will remain; unkillable (thats even when ganged by 7 or 8 of the above mentioned "average PK'ers").

Edited December 19, 2007 by Korrode

[Entropy]

Well, even with bought nexuses, you will still be able to cap only 4 attributes (and that after a few years of play).

Perrsonally, I think that no build will be worse than the other, just different strategies. If you pump will and reasoning, you wuill take more damage, yes?

[korrode]

Well, i am specifically looking at the situation of a Group of "average" PK'ers (lets say 6 of them) fighting one of the ultra high level PK'ers on a multi-combat PK map.

 

In this post i will make references to "The Group" and "The One"

The Group = the team of "average" PK'ers.

The One = the ultra high level, nexus removal pp, PK'er.

 

No one in The Group as much hope of getting in many normal hits, they'd be reliant for the most part on critical hits (welcome the Rapier to PK)... the problem with relying on crits is you are relying on luck. To up the chances of The Group being able to do damage to The One, there needs to be a reasonably long period of time where the entire, or most of, The Group is engaged in combat with The One.

 

If all the members of The Group can only restore ~50 health, and The One can restore 200+ health, then each Group member will very quickly die (or have to diss), as The One will be using an Orc Slayer or Thermal Serp and getting in every hit. Each member of The Group will get wiped out very quickly, and once there is only 2 or 3 Group members left the chance of getting in lots of crits is severely reduced.

 

Where as, if The Group members can still restore a decent amount of health, and we factor in that The One can only ever have a maximum Might (damage) of 48, although each member will still be taking every hit and only getting in critical hits (so, yes, the ultra high level PK'ers will still be very strong), by ensuring most of The Group can remain in combat for a decent amount of time it means there will be a chance they could kill The One, through the combination of +17 to critical hit * 6.

 

I thought making the unkillable's killable by multiple average/lower level fighters was a key goal of what we're trying to achieve here, it makes no sense that 1x ~140 a/d can kill 6x ~100 a/d... 6x 100 = 600 a/d... hell imo they shouldn't just have a chance to win, the should pwn easily... 600 combined a/d VS 140 a/d.

Where you say:

If you pump will and reasoning, you wuill take more damage, yes?

That works fine when it's ultra high level VS utlra high level, but when it's average level VS ultra high level it doesn't matter if they take a bit more damage cause the average level can barely hit them anyways. Edited December 19, 2007 by Korrode

[masterpiter]

Lets imagine "the one" using bod lolx, it will be a massacre, not a fight

Take away pr0 restore from ppl and u can forget about killing anything that deals u big dmg( so high lvl mobs and high lvl players ).

 

mp

[Entropy]

It depends on the strategy, really.

Say we have the group formed from:

2 high level fighters (say, 70% in AD and PP compared to The One)

3 mages (full rationality)

1 summoner (full charm)

 

Then the fighters can engage The One, 2 of the mages will back him (the one taking damage) up by casting remote heal, and one mage will cast harm/poison. The summoner will summon whatever he can (bears, fluffies, etc.) with a chance of 1/2 to summon 2 instead of one.

 

Do you think The One stands a chance?

[korrode]

Honestly, if The One is a smart Pk'er, yes i think he has a very good chance of winning, based on my experience and calculations.

 

But;

2x decent level fighters

2x mages (just healing the fighters, as The One will have immune on)

and like 3x high level (high dexterity?) archers with big damage arrows and Thermal Bow (the bow sold in the shop for as much as thermal serp that adds 10 heat and cold damage to every arrow fired ) would probably do ok.

[Entropy]

Magic immunity wont help when there is a spell for high mages to remove it.

[asgnny]

It depends on the strategy, really.

Say we have the group formed from:

2 high level fighters (say, 70% in AD and PP compared to The One)

3 mages (full rationality)

1 summoner (full charm)

 

Then the fighters can engage The One, 2 of the mages will back him (the one taking damage) up by casting remote heal, and one mage will cast harm/poison. The summoner will summon whatever he can (bears, fluffies, etc.) with a chance of 1/2 to summon 2 instead of one.

 

Do you think The One stands a chance?

 

With some strategy by "the one", yes. It's not all that difficult to disengage or flee from the two "high level" fighters and maybe a couple of summons, and tele to range over to the weaker fighters (most likely the mage or summoner). Assuming the 3 mages are maxed out on rationality (miraculously so, after spending 30 pickpoints on nexus, as proposed), each one would only take a couple of hits to kill by a top tier fighter. Yes, "the one" could lose, but he can also win. I fail to see how the idea of a mage class can be added to current EL at all.

 

Maybe the mage class should be left to the PK server, where players can fairly decide early on which to work on (or to train both a mage and a normal fighter as separate characters?).

[Kaddy]

why do we all want a BIG change??!?! Caps will be fun enuff... let it go and lets see what would the game become... Mage class shouldnt be for main server. thats my idea

 

Kad

Edited December 19, 2007 by OldySchooly

[masterpiter]

3 mages (full rationality)

Those 3 mages will be 3 former yeti trainers who put all their pps in will/reason+ max p/c for emu of coz, since vit/inst will be pretty useless for everything with weak restore.

All 3 of them will be also very high lvl, not 100a/d, way more

 

With such an importance of rationality for casting magic, pking, training of a/d and mixing i see no reason to put pickpoints in inst/vit unless some1 maxed out rationality

 

 

mp

[PkQueen]

why do we all want a BIG change??!?! Caps will be fun enuff... let it go and lets see what would the game become... Mage class shouldnt be for main server. thats my idea

 

Kad

 

 

Totally agreed.

[Entropy]

With such an importance of rationality for casting magic, pking, training of a/d and mixing i see no reason to put pickpoints in inst/vit unless some1 maxed out rationality

 

mp

 

If you don't put PPs in inst/vit you might be able to heal much better (lots of points in rationality), but you won't be able to dodge hits very well, you will have crappy mana, and you will take more damage from every hit. So yeah, go ahead and put everything in rationality then watch how a rat can hurt you

[Wizzy]

Is it possible, when this gets implemented, it will also be mirrored on the test server so we can test our new builds before commiting our charaters on regualr server?

[Entropy]

Yes, it will be on the test server first to test the whole thing.

[Wizzy]

Thank you very much (It should be a lot of fun)