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Tauren

The strength of rationality

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Rationality will soon be a favourable attribute due soon to be implemented mage class. Many mage players and some high oa fighters will most likely max this attribute for the increased magic power. This attribute also governs the property of increased experience.

The added experience received from one point in rationality is 1 for harvest, 1/2 for mixing and 1/4 for combat. Therefore a sub-effect to the increased magic effectiveness of maxed rationality is a boost of 24 exp in manufacturing.

Take FEs for example, this will give 30 exp / FE. Many players will then prefer, purely for the exp-cash ratio, to alch FEs rather than more expensive alching products such as bars (which offers a lower experience percentage increase with maxed rationality). This will also bring more EFEs into the game, and EFEs are already a big problem.

 

Of course the experience from rationality is still available now, so those few players that sacrificed combat power (p/c mainly) for exp, deserved it.. but now that rationality will be effective in combat as well, many players will be maxing this attribute and this will thus cause fluctuations in the economy due to the supply of lower level manufacturable products.

 

Now I don't have any great solution to this problem, and although I believe that having added exp from an attribute is a nice feature, I think this experience boost should be moved to another attribute, or else rationality will become too strong and will be from a near worthless attribute now, to becoming one of the most favourable attributes.

 

May I suggest moving the exp boost to ethereality or perception?

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Rationality will soon be a favourable attribute due soon to be implemented mage class. Many mage players and some high oa fighters will most likely max this attribute for the increased magic power.

Rationality is a cross-attribute therefore it needs 2 pickpoints to get one point in rationality. To max that out you need 88 pickpoints either in Reasoning or in Will (to max these two). But you still want to have some EMU, right? So you need also some points in Physics and/or Coordination to get a decent EMU.

 

Conclusion: I doubt too many people (if at all) max out Rationality therefore the problem mentioned by you isn't that big a problem.

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Take FEs for example, this will give 30 exp / FE. Many players will then prefer, purely for the exp-cash ratio, to alch FEs rather than more expensive alching products such as bars (which offers a lower experience percentage increase with maxed rationality). This will also bring more EFEs into the game, and EFEs are already a big problem.

 

Entropy already said, that he is adjusting rates and drops continuously to balance. When there will be too many EFEs coming from FE production, he will simply raise the rate for making EFE.

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

 

Uhh, not really. Magic nexus would give an advantage to the way of high-level crafters, and suck for medium to low people who don't want to train crafting.

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

 

Uhh, not really. Magic nexus would give an advantage to the way of high-level crafters, and suck for medium to low people who don't want to train crafting.

 

Rather even more advantage to the evil in real life rich people, who can get their hands on 50 hydro nexus no prob.

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

 

Uhh, not really. Magic nexus would give an advantage to the way of high-level crafters, and suck for medium to low people who don't want to train crafting.

 

Yes the ebul crafters may have an advantage? I see crafting / Summoning and Spell casting all as magical crafts. Fighters in my opinion should be built differntly then mages.

 

Mage Build 30P 48C 20W 48I

Figher build 48P 48C 20V 30R i

 

If both had an equal overall. A Fighter will require 7 NExus on Human.. A mage may be happy with 5. SO for spell casting to be equal, a fighter may require Magic Nexus 3 and a Mage need magic Nexus 7 (looks equal) but very different type of build. If it is the cross attribute of rationality that will effect magic the builds will look like this

 

Mage 48P 48C 48R 20W

Fighter 48P 48C 48R 20W

 

Ummm donesnt this look very familure ? WHen all fighters are currently

40P

120C

20W or V?

 

And incidently the Best Fighters are also the top mages...

 

This is just the way I see it occuring. I really think this needs more discussion?

Edited by Jumpy

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

Exactly. I am going to max at least reasoning for archery, if the rationality is used for magic I and lots of other people will be good in both archery and magic. Nice.

 

But if magic nexus was used (maybe even with same formula, both are worth one pp), mage class would really be mage class. Nexus does not help in fighting, fighters wouldn't take it as lot as they would reasoning.

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I think the idea of using magic nexus is the only logical solution to this problem. For a mage class to take shape the class should have some unique modifiers/attributes to train on. Magic nexus is the only nexus not being used a lot these days and would make the most sense: a mage needing to train Magic.. just sounds logical :)

 

The build would be a bit different, since a mage will want to maximize his ethereality, so a mage build will have high will and high vitality, thereby also supporting summoning (a magical power) and gaining more material points and toughness (both good to have as a mage as well). Could look like (in the end):

 

Mage 32P 48C 32W 20I 32V

 

Which will be quite different from fighting classes who will want to max out reasoning rather then w/i/v

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My Overall actually is on 140s. I will have a good amount of pickpoints to redistribute when the cap will be implemented.

 

I could simply use all the pickpoins I will get from coord to put into will and reasoning, but that will bring me a lot of deficiences in some aspects.

 

To use nexus instead of a cross attribute is a horrible idea, because it takes out the strategies on char building. That extra experience you get from rationality when you fight, is not that big thing. What gives you more experience is to train a strong monster, which you wont be able to do if you lack of reaction and dexterity. So what is the worth to get +12 experience in both attack and defense if you are training at ogres, when you could get better experience training on cyclopes or fluffies (just an example)? :)

 

If you are not a fighter, dont speak as you are a fighter, because you have no idea about the choices you have to do.

Edited by Vormavius

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@Jumpy: I'm not going to argue, I'm too busy. But lemme point out that Zarin (Crafting God) and Unolas are enemies, this would suggest crafting is not a magical talent, but something scientifical/logical.

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Rather even more advantage to the evil in real life rich people, who can get their hands on 50 hydro nexus no prob.

Agreed (or even the ebul fighters who earn their gc). If a few nexus would be required to be a strong mage, the top tier of fighters will simply save up for and buy nexus. If it were 30 nexus points to get a decent mage build, it would likely prevent a strong mage/fighter build...however, this completely renders the person unable to do much of anything else effectively.

 

Many of the ideas thrown around involve maxing out both rationality and will...with what seems to me to be many players not understanding the downside to this. If I need to devote 88 pickpoints towards will and reasoning, I would be giving up much needed toughness and reaction (from vitality and instinct). Lacking these important cross-attributes would allow a former fighter to simply be able to heal somewhat more effectively while being pummeled by monsters until his armor breaks. It is short-sighted to make formulas which assume all top fighters will immediately max out rationality.

 

My biggest hope from this attribute cap was that we would finally have differentiation among fighters once again. (Long ago, there had been high phys builds, high coord builds, and negged out tanks who enjoyed pk, but needed to reset in order to gain any decent exp from monsters.) If fighters are more or less forced to max out will and reasoning, we will end up with the same nonsense we had before the cap, the only difference being everyone will be relatively weaker. I would really like to see different attribute strategies be utilized among players. Please don't let this desire for a mage class cause everyone to lose sight of why the attribute cap was so strongly needed in the first place.

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To use nexus instead of a cross attribute is a horrible idea, because it takes out the strategies on char building. That extra experience you get from rationality when you fight, is not that big thing. What gives you more experience is to train a strong monster, which you wont be able to do if you lack of reaction and dexterity. So what is the worth to get +12 experience in both attack and defense if you are training at ogres, when you could get better experience training on cyclopes or fluffies (just an example)? :)

 

If you are not a fighter, dont speak as you are a fighter, because you have no idea about the choices you have to do.

There are other character builds than the melee fighter, aren't there?

 

If one wants to be pure mage, why couldn't she take 150 magic nexus right away, if she won't even look at monsters?

 

Or let's say mage does not want to go above ogres, so she can have 20/20 p/c for ever (and still survive at PK with col), and take that 100 magic nexus to do high damage with offensive spells?

Edited by ville-v

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To use nexus instead of a cross attribute is a horrible idea, because it takes out the strategies on char building. That extra experience you get from rationality when you fight, is not that big thing. What gives you more experience is to train a strong monster, which you wont be able to do if you lack of reaction and dexterity. So what is the worth to get +12 experience in both attack and defense if you are training at ogres, when you could get better experience training on cyclopes or fluffies (just an example)? :)

 

If you are not a fighter, dont speak as you are a fighter, because you have no idea about the choices you have to do.

There are other character builds than the melee fighter, aren't there?

 

If one wants to be pure mage, why couldn't she take 150 magic nexus right away, if she won't even look at monsters?

 

Or let's say mage does not want to go above ogres, so she can have 20/20 p/c for ever (and still survive at PK with col), and take that 100 magic nexus to do high damage with offensive spells?

 

Pardon my asking, but exactly how many oa levels have you earned from magic alone? Somehow, I doubt you can earn 132 (100 nexus + 16p + 16c) pickpoints using nothing but magic quite so easily as you seem to think. Also, try casting all the required spells (which use upwards of 30 essences each) with a whopping 320 emu.

Edited by asgnny

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Read asgnny's post :)

 

And other thing, how do you expect a pure mage will reach like overall 130 get p/c 20 and his 100 magic nexus fighting ogres? He will need at least 20 points in will or vitality in order to have a decent mana.

 

Go the the el-cel site, use the attribute calculator for some time and enjoy all the possibilities you can have, and I doubt you can go for a best build. You will have a lot of choices.

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The only way to solve these problems is not to use rationality in a formula effecting magic power. Magic Nexus is the only real solution. It will need a different formula

 

Uhh, not really. Magic nexus would give an advantage to the way of high-level crafters, and suck for medium to low people who don't want to train crafting.

 

Entropy already said it'd have to be 30 Magic Nexus to make a good mage. I have 85 OAs, no magic nexus cause I don't craft, and nothing over cap. So I would be forced to reset/power level HARD all just to heal a mere 100-200hp?

 

Although, if this happened, I would have to adapt, but as most pointed out, Pkers can already just buy their way into the nexus, making it unfair to mid-high level non-crafters, who have high oa, no attributes over 48, no spare pp, AND no gc to get hydro worth 15-30 nexus just to heal.

 

Seems this solution would be unfair to those who spread their pp fairly between attributes. I have Mag; 34, Reasioning; 16 Will; 24 and p/c 16/26. In my eyes for fairness, I think I have deserved the right to heal 100-150hp with the mage thing, even if I don't have the magic nexus. I think if magic nexus fell into place, I, personally, would like a mini-reset, which isn't going to happen.

 

As for more FE production. that's out of the question for me;

1. I have made 44k FEs, and only gotten 1EFE (my rate SUCKS).

2. I HATE making FEs, I would rather spend my time making magic essences, to which I get more gc profit, and exp.

3. The more higher your alch is the less you fail, the less EFEs you get, and this is why I can't make many EFEs in the first place.

 

As for gc to exp method, it will be about the same as it is now, since each essence still gets the same exp rate as it is now.;

 

10 Magic Essences;

10 Emeralds; 30gc

20 Flowers; 10gc

100 Food Points; roughly 20gc

EXP with Rationality 30; 950x10= 950 total exp

Cost; 60gc

Actual PROFIT; 6-7gc (selling to the npc; 66gc - selling to players; 70gc highly unlikely, but not impossible)

GC To Exp; 15 exp per 1gc

 

10 Fire Essences

10 Sulfur; 20gc

20 Flowers; 10gc

10 Food; Roughly 2gc

EXP with Rationality 30; 21x10= 210 total exp

Cost; 32gc

Actual PROFIT;3gc (selling to players; highly likely @ 3.5gc)

GC To Exp; 6 exp per 1gc

 

Now you don't need much of a high level to make FEs, but as you can see if you're going for gc to exp, the magic essences pwn FEs. PLUS, they produce an Enriched also, and you get more profit. Although some people may do this, I wouldn't. And as pointed out, Entropy will just edit the rate of the enriched.

 

 

Alch 74 here. I mix/harvest about 90% of the time, fight a barely 1% (lol) and probably chat/magic train the rest of the time.

 

I like to alch mainly, I harvest about all my things, and I recently took up potions just so pot Antidotes for easier mixing with toads. The new healing/cap wont affect me much, so I can adapt to anything, I just don't wanna reset, I spent my PPs wisely, to the point I NEVER have had to reset before. It would stink to have to just because I need nexus to heal. I would probably just rather use potions until I can get the extra OAs for the nexus.

Edited by Lexi

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Just a though. When Tibia made a new magic-system, healing spells were excluded from it so that people didn't whine too much. It would be possible to be done in EL too (well, on main server at least).

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Just a though. When Tibia made a new magic-system, healing spells were excluded from it so that people didn't whine too much. It would be possible to be done in EL too (well, on main server at least).

The purpose of this was mainly do to the healing aspect of it :) (from what I read anyway).

 

The problem is, is that the restore is much too powerful now that everyone about has a CoL now a days, and higher OAs have been achieved. Restore wasn't as used back a couple years ago, as much as it is now.

 

With the restore pots, when I started out, I was surprised they didn't fill up to your max, like the spell did. If the pots don't "restore fully" like the spell, why should the spell?

 

The idea is good, we're just trying to find a fair formula (which seems near impossible) to everyone.

Edited by Lexi

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Of course if Magic Nexus was used in the propossed formulas it would not work. I am sure formulas can be changed to include magic nexus. I was never suggestion someone need 30 or 100 nexus. I suggested a max of 7.

 

For instance...Restoration would be something like this

 

(Magic Level X 2) X (Magic Nexus Maximum of 7 devided by 3)

 

Some one with Magic level 21 and and nexus of 5 would restore 70 Hit Points

 

Magic 50 with 6 Nexus would restore 200 Hitpoints

 

Nexus of 80 with 7 nexus would restore 372 hitpoints.

 

Of course this can be tweaked. It is just an example. I just worry that everyone is going to max reasoning and we end up with the same problem as before. With a formula like this, a Fighter will take less magic nexus, and be happy to restore enough Hitpoints, so he can spend a few PP more on Instict, vitality and reasoning. Where as a mage will want the 7 Nexus, to maximus spell power.

 

And yes, I know that the top will buy the nexus required. I am also planning on buying more nexus..

Edited by Jumpy

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The idea is good, we're just trying to find a fair formula (which seems near impossible) to everyone.

It isn't impossible to find fair formula for everyone:

Restored hp = Max hp - Current hp :devlish:

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I do like that idea, but I think it's a bit low, if I am understanding right, with my current stats;

 

Magic 34 x 2= 68

With 3 nexus, I would only get 68 hp. since 3 / 3=only 1

 

1x 68=68

 

IMO 3 nexus is a good amount spent for a nexus period if you are just an occasional leveler. Although, we are talking about a new class, it'd be a LOT of leveling for people like me who have pretty high OA, don't have extra pp, don't craft and/or aren't over the cap of something.

 

Either way though, I'll adjust I love the idea period, and I wont be healing MUCH; 700 heals in the past 8 months. But I have recently taking up toad mixing, so my heals have increased drastically.

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I dont understand this now :devlish: it seems a little unfair IF the spells are still going to be able to fail. Im not sure if they are tho?

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I am not sure that what we are talkinga bout is such a bad idea, with this cap more people will focus on things other then fighting, such as manu where EFE and FE is used a LOT. and where ever you put the mage class weather in atrib or nex the players that pay RL money to get PP can put them ANYWHERE... unless i missed something latly i dont think it is a bad thing to keep the mage class attached to Rati.

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Of course if Magic Nexus was used in the propossed formulas it would not work. I am sure formulas can be changed to include magic nexus. I was never suggestion someone need 30 or 100 nexus. I suggested a max of 7.

 

Hmm, yeah, good idea. How about we also send a $50 Amazon gift card to all the players as well?

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Of course if Magic Nexus was used in the propossed formulas it would not work. I am sure formulas can be changed to include magic nexus. I was never suggestion someone need 30 or 100 nexus. I suggested a max of 7.

 

Hmm, yeah, good idea. How about we also send a $50 Amazon gift card to all the players as well?

 

Can you make sure mine is for amazon.co.uk not .com. Muchos thanks :ph34r:

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