Mage class formulas

[Lexi]

Although I think the first one rocks (would heal me 151) and second is not as good (only 59) with the Second, it'd be cheaper using potions (BRs) than using HEs (which cost 4*6 at the least and 25 mana which will cost a SR, 13gc which doesn't even cover it all) I think it needs a bigger boost

 

I have 20 Rationality and Magic 34 now, I have no more PPs to spend, so I would be stuck. Now I still would use Restoration, just cause I love the spell and I MAKE the essences, but those who can't make em, can't afford them would be very handicapped.

 

I also think it could be nice maybe to change Restore to "Great Heal" (requiring same essences/mana used) and healing a flat out 50hp, but Boost Restore to more req level and doing a formula maybe BETWEEN number 1 and number 2 (healingsomeone with my stats roughly about 100 or so and requiring 6 HEs and maybe 30-40 mana)

 

Just an idea, but I would certainly love a "mid" healing spell, as a lot of us would.

[TirunCollimdus]

If we go the Nexus way, we'd need at least 30 in magic nexus in order to be a competitive mage.

That all depends on what number you put to each nexus point

if the formula was

magic level * 1.5 + magic nexus *10

then a mage of level 80 with nexus of 20 would heal = 320hp

 

What I meant that nexus could be used was a combination of nexus and rationality. The formula in this case would be:

 

magic level * 1.5 + rationality * 5 + magic nexus *5

Level 80 mage with 10 rationality and 10 nexus would be:

 

80 * 1.5 = 120 + 10 * 5 = 50 + 10 * 5 = 50 for a total of 220 health.

This keeps fighters from just buying nexus to put into magic nexus and avoiding the need to put on rationality as well.

 

Magic level 80 with 20 rationality and 10 nexus = 270 health restored. This is equal magic level 80 with a 30 rationality. This is 42 pick points compared to the 52 pick points for the same effect with Entropy's formula. That 10 PPs could give you another 100 emu. It still leaves fighters unable to afford to max restoration and allowing mages to get there with a few pick points left over.

 

Mages NEED EMU. SRs are 5 emu each, the higher level the spell the more essences required. Harm, mana drain, invisibility, magic immunity, teleport to range and restoration. Just one round of these spells eats a lot of emu and most of them you will need to cast multiple times in anyone fight. Where to mages get all of this mana from if they cannot mana drain(fighting monster or fighter with higher magic level and imm) their opponent?

 

My suggestion to alleviate this at least a little is a spell called Life to Mana. 1 Magic Essence and 1 life essence. Level is between life drain and mana drain. You cast it like life drain and take matter from your enemy but transform and transfer it instead of just transferring it. You use half of the life stolen to power a transformation from life energy to ethereal energy. You take 30 life and you get 15 mana as an example.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Entropy]

Will each spell have its own cooldown? Will rationality effect every cooldown? I cannot see the mage being at all useful if you do not get a separate cooldown for each spell.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

First, it's fucking affect not effect.

And the cooldown, if implemented, would be for all the spells together, not for each spell. Otherwise the advantage for the mages is minor.

[TirunCollimdus]

Will each spell have its own cooldown? Will rationality effect every cooldown? I cannot see the mage being at all useful if you do not get a separate cooldown for each spell.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

First, it's fucking affect not effect.

And the cooldown, if implemented, would be for all the spells together, not for each spell. Otherwise the advantage for the mages is minor.

 

Sorry for the wrong usage. Fortunately it is extremely rare that I make that kind of mistake. While it is a very powerful advantage for mages with very high rationalities it is a death sentence to any mages who have not gotten a high enough OA to reduce the cool down. 20 second cooldown after you restore to teleport to range? Can we say dead? What or who are you going to kill with magic harming it every 20 seconds? The only use mages will have is as group attackers in PK until they are very high level. Even at that they still have to have a high enough magic level to take out the magic immunity of the person they need to harm. This is assuming that enough of them survive long enough to cast harm after waiting the 20 seconds to remove the magic immunity. If the fighter has a night visor the element of surprise is most likely either gone or on his side.

 

The possibility of mages helping during NDD day invasions also disappears for most spell casters in game at the moment probably too considering how long it would take to kill a giant or dragon with this kind of cooldown. How about using magic nexus to reduce the cooldown as well as rationality. Really IMO if magic nexus is not used to supplement the advantages of rationality it does not seem that mages will have enough pick points to be of any use.

 

Why would anyone kill themselves trying to level a mage who in the end at the highest levels could only be used to fight in groups in PK? Not enough emu or mana to fight as a mage normally does. You can't go training ogres or drop fighting them as a mage because you don't have the emu. You can't get the emu because you are forced to go straight will and reasoning to offset cooldown on spells and to get high enough on your restores to stay alive if you do go help in PK. Magic nexus needs to be a part of the picture so that mages can have enough emu to carry potions and essences. Making sure that fighters cannot be mages is great but we need to be sure that mages can be mages when the change is made.

 

If you lowered cooldown on spells by 1 per nexus and had nexus as part of the restoration equation it would definitely leave fighters out because they could not afford to take the nexus or if they could not as high as the mage and the mage still has the rationality bonus keeping him ahead of the fighter curve.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Lexi]

First, it's fucking affect not effect.

 

Poked at your brain that bad, eh?

 

Okay so I was thinking... what about (magic *1.5) + (rationality * 2.5)?

Not too high not too low, but heck the lower the better, right? For more HEs, SRs usage.

 

More healing= more exp for me, so I am game for high or low. But I will search for the cheapest way to heal, just because I am a cheapskate

 

Btw that would heal me 101. I say it's fair with 40 pp spent in w/r combined, but hey, it's not my say, I am just hear to voice my opinion.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Lexi

[Mango]

First choice seems good to me .

 

Oh and please, do NOT let nexus affect(?) how much people can restore. This will make difference between players even easier to change aka get bigger, which the cap tried not to.

[Lexi]

Oh and please, do NOT let nexus affect(?) how much people can restore. This will make difference between players even easier to change aka get bigger, which the cap tried not to.

 

This if that happens I will have to Power Level for a few days, since I am not a crafter, I do NOT have those nexus That would stink for me (and everyone who is not a crafter heehee).

 

Is Magic Nexus used in any other way besides crafting? It would make sense to put magic under the magic nexus though. It would put a lot of people in a tough spot...

 

With my personal build, I hate it Would give me a reason to take up crafting. (which honestly I need no reason, lol)

Edited December 18, 2007 by Lexi

[flexus]

i totaly agree with schmurk on the formula. so if there would be a vote between the 2 formulas of radu i would vote for the second.

i also agree about the nexus with schmurk, imo each spell should require nexus, only the healing spells not (maybe remote heal should and make it a lil'bit more powerfull...)

but i think nexus should not affect the power of spells or stones (i like this idea with the stones, just not with nexus), i think it doesnt in no skill, it just allows u to do things, not how good u do em, the skill/attributes are therefor, arent they?!

 

i was about to write that imo u even shouldnt take natural hp+col/mol hp as basis more just the natural hp but that point convinced me that it shouldnt be too hard...

...

On the other hand death in other games doesn't cost 16000gc.

...

 

i think if heal pots going to be stackable (and maybe lil shorter cooldown) i see no problem in making restoration (much) harder...

i like the idea of more powerfull mages (also thats not the topic but the discussion leads to it ^^) combined with sumoning we could create real blackmages what would be great spice for pk imo

 

...

Animal nexus could be used for how strong a mob summoned from a stone is ( nexus of 10 mob is 100% , nexus of 5 mob is only 50%)

...

i like this idea very much but as mentioned above not with nexus, i would say sum skill or an attribute. but thats something completly else

 

btw, i dont know if u want it but what about lowering the xp for restoration(maybe indg too, dunno...)? i think so its not like high a/d = high magic skill...

[FatboyJaxx]

I think if the idea of leaving the restoration spell the same and using cooldown of the spell linked to rationality is going to work you'd have to have seperate cooldowns for each spell (maybe a fixed time between different spells being cast as we have now as well). There would also need to be a visual representation of the cooldown for each spell onscreen, maybe where the other effects are now (shield, MI etc) with a bar that goes down (or circle or whatever) to show you the cooldown on each spell.

[Entropy]

While it is a very powerful advantage for mages with very high rationalities it is a death sentence to any mages who have not gotten a high enough OA to reduce the cool down.

 

You mean kind of how it is very hard to survive as a fighter with only 4 p/c?

In case you missed the point of this thread, it is to have a mage class, not to make it easy for non mages or half mages to use the magic and pwn everyone.

[TirunCollimdus]

If the second formula gets picked the restoration spell should be at least 5 levels lower using only 2 HEs and 10 mana. The cooldown would still keep people from using the reduced cost to heal more often to make up for the reduced effect of the spell. The experience from the spell could be dropped according as well. If restoration is not going to be anywhere near as powerful we should not have to pay anywhere near the cost to use it. The lower level will mean a faster no fail restore which is as it should be too since the spell does so much less you really need it to work.

 

I think something like this should happen even if the spell is changed to use the first formula too. It should at least be reduced in essences required down to 3 with the first formula. You are still going to be using more essences just half again as many instead of twice as many. That way we might actually all get to do something besides make HEs and SRs.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Llywar]

For the sake of newbies and low-lev chars you might want to look at any potential formulas in terms of how many xp (both magic and OA for the PPs) it will take to get to something reasonable like an 80-point restore (only double as efficient as the heal spell). Also consider how long it would take to get to that point if cooldown is adjusted. If a low-level mage suffers a 60-second cooldown on the heal spell and shield spell it could literally take hundreds or thousands of hours of just casting sheid to get things to a decent condition.

 

I think the proposals are good ones, and I'm sure Ent/etc will think about this stuff before making any changes. However, since most of the discussion is centered around PK and high-level training I figured I'd make another mention of low-level characters.

 

Keep in mind also that a weak restore spell greatly diminishes the value of the CoL for stuff like harvesting and eating toads. The value of a CoL is in how many HEs and mana points you can save by not needing to cast heal so often. If restore only heals 50hp then there is really no point in having more than about 100 HP for such applications. The CoL would still be useful for fighting since you could cast restore a few times to get to full health before an engagement.

[TirunCollimdus]

While it is a very powerful advantage for mages with very high rationalities it is a death sentence to any mages who have not gotten a high enough OA to reduce the cool down.

 

You mean kind of how it is very hard to survive as a fighter with only 4 p/c?

In case you missed the point of this thread, it is to have a mage class, not to make it easy for non mages or half mages to use the magic and pwn everyone.

 

 

No I do not mean like a fighter with 4 p/c. The point I am making is that there is no middle ground for the mage as currently described. Until you hit OA 100 or so you are pretty useless.

 

50 OA 24 will and 16 reasoning 18 points left for perks, emu and nexus. 8 points in nexus, 8 points for coord and 2 points for instinct/perks Not doing much with that character are we? 32 second cooldown Magic level 50 is 175 health restored assuming you have a crown to have that much in the first place.

 

100 OA 38 will and 38 reasoning 32 points left for perks, emu and nexus. That sounds almost doable unless you actually want to do more than two skills or you want to train a/d for getting ings for summoning, potion etc... 12 points in nexus, 12 points in coord and 8 points for instinct/perks 14 second cooldown and Magic level 50 is 190 health restored if you have a crown to have that much in the first place.

 

178 OA 48 will and 48 reasoning 90 points left for perks emu and nexus. Say 30 points in nexus 30 points in coord and 30 points for instinct/perks A successful character who can do everything except for fight the toughest monsters I think. 4 second cooldown and Magic level 50 is 315 health restored if you have a crown and medallion of life to need that much. You actually need a dragon blade to give you enough health at this point too to need to restore that much and you would be restoring at 1 health I believe.

 

OA 50 for a fighter is massively notched up with uber equipment and a very tiny need for nexus. Not to mention that fighting is now a lot more about skill level too so you don't have to worry so much about being low on PPs unless you are a PKer.

 

Mages being entirely based on pick points makes OA their most important stat and it is next to impossible to get OAs with a mage because you cannot use a/d to level up and you don't have the nexus or power fighting as a mage to get your OAs anywhere else.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Entropy]

Keep in mind also that a weak restore spell greatly diminishes the value of the CoL for stuff like harvesting and eating toads. The value of a CoL is in how many HEs and mana points you can save by not needing to cast heal so often. If restore only heals 50hp then there is really no point in having more than about 100 HP for such applications. The CoL would still be useful for fighting since you could cast restore a few times to get to full health before an engagement.

 

The CoL was NEVER intended to harvest and eat toads! That's a perversion of it's use, and if that use dissapears as a side effect of this change, then all the better.

[FatboyJaxx]

If the second formula gets picked the restoration spell should be at least 5 levels lower using only 2 HEs and 10 mana. The cooldown would still keep people from using the reduced cost to heal more often to make up for the reduced effect of the spell. The experience from the spell could be dropped according as well. If restoration is not going to be anywhere near as powerful we should not have to pay anywhere near the cost to use it. The lower level will mean a faster no fail restore which is as it should be too since the spell does so much less you really need it to work.

 

 

I think you're missing the point of why I mentioned having cooldown on spells based on rationality. It is meant as an alternative to the proposed formulae for restoration rather than an addition. This way it would affect PK and make the mages useful but at the same time not damage toad mixers or force people to spend enormous amounts of gc training. If you're training on the right monsters the cooldown shouldn't affect you and the same with people mixing with toads.

[Lexi]

The CoL was NEVER intended to harvest and eat toads! That's a perversion of it's use, and if that use dissapears as a side effect of this change, then all the better.

 

No joke.. if it was, the human nexus for use wouldn't be so high...

 

Although, I do believe it's a good sacrifice to use it. Other than the 10 human I will need for the Art Cape (which is a LONG time off, he he), I wouldn't (shouldn't) need human nexus at all if I am a pure mixer/harvester.

 

Just depends what someone wants to sacrifice

[Entropy]

Well, unfortuantely the cooldown would affect newbies that want to train magic, so I am going to discard the idea for now.

 

I think the best formula would be the first I posted (I personally like the second one more, but I agree that it might be too severe for those without a lot of PPs and high magic level).

But with the mention that perhaps the health poitns over the natural player limit should be reduced by half (if wearing CoL and stuff).

[TirunCollimdus]

 

I think you're missing the point of why I mentioned having cooldown on spells based on rationality. It is meant as an alternative to the proposed formulae for restoration rather than an addition. This way it would affect PK and make the mages useful but at the same time not damage toad mixers or force people to spend enormous amounts of gc training. If you're training on the right monsters the cooldown shouldn't affect you and the same with people mixing with toads.

 

 

I was responding to Entropy saying he wanted to do both not supporting the idea that both was a good idea. That is why I posted about how high a level you have to be to be of any use as a mage. There just are not enough spells or powerful enough spells or ways to get mana back to make leveling OA as a mage possible. Cooldown on spells makes this even worse of course. The only way I can even begin to see mages as viable with the cooldown is if the spell I suggested for turning enemy health into mana was actually very low level. Magic is hard enough to train as it is without the cooldown. The only reason we have the levels of magic in game that we do is because of mana drain. Cooldown would effectively kill that for anyone except the highest rationality players in the game. People would probably do resets just to mana drain if that is put in place.

 

Do a harvest reset to get your AE ings. Then go all will and rationality and mix the AEs and start mana draining with your partner. Mix and mana drain at the same time I guess to make up for the cooldown.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Tauren]

First, it's fucking affect not effect.

 

Poked at your brain that bad, eh?

 

Okay so I was thinking... what about (magic *1.5) + (rationality * 2.5)?

Not too high not too low, but heck the lower the better, right? For more HEs, SRs usage.

 

More healing= more exp for me, so I am game for high or low. But I will search for the cheapest way to heal, just because I am a cheapskate

 

Btw that would heal me 101. I say it's fair with 40 pp spent in w/r combined, but hey, it's not my say, I am just hear to voice my opinion.

Personally I think teh god has a grudge against TirunCollimdus

Oh and it is here not hear, I hate it when froobs get that wrong...

 

 

Just looking back at the formula heal = magic * 9 * (rationality/100) the max health a player can obtain (with col etc.) is 390? (48 matter * 5 per matter = 240 + 150 col). Assuming the mage has max rationality 48, with this formula the mage will need 90 magic for a full restore, and this is fine but not for a newbie...

 

IMO once you hit 100 magic you should be strong enough for a full restore (if you maxed rationality).

So I'm thinking in order to achieve this and also help out the newbies: heal = 40 + magic * 8 * (rat/110)

With this formula, as soon as the mage hits 100 magic (and 48 rationality) the spell will be able to restore the entire max 390 health.

On the other hand, as soon as a newbie hits 21 magic (4 rationality), casting restoration will heal 46 which seems reasonable enough

[FatboyJaxx]

But with the mention that perhaps the health poitns over the natural player limit should be reduced by half (if wearing CoL and stuff).

 

Wouldn't this make the CoL essencially useless? You might get some high level mages wearing CoL's (or possibly CoM's) but they're going to break them very rarely as they won't be involved with direct combat other than the short time it takes a fighter to finish them off.

 

It's already difficult to shift high level crafting items and making it even more difficult is going to make high level crafting pretty pointless. Manufacturing already has a lot of items at high level that are worth making and sell a lot due to breakage but crafting does not and this will lower it even more. I think this will be a problem with all the formulae and would be made even worse with the addition in the quote above.

 

There are solutions to this though such as craftable EMU increasing items etc but I think making items virtually obsolete is a bit silly too.

 

 

Note: I'm not trying to trash the idea just trying to mention some of the possible side effects.

[Lexi]

Personally I think teh god has a grudge against TirunCollimdus

Oh and it is here not hear, I hate it when froobs get that wrong...

 

Yeah, I spelled "nuxes" instead of "nexus" too, but I fixed it before you noticed, I guess. Oh well, I am not in the right place to have perfect spelling/grammar at the moment anyway (state of mind), you're lucky I can do that much, cause if this was math, you'd be correcting so much more, lol. Normally I don't make that mistake.

 

Seems like we're all focusing on something besides the topic, he he

 

 

Don't know newbie idea... hum. Sounds nice...

[The_Piper]

I havent read the whole thread, but:

 

The most important formula is the restoration spell, which is used a lot by fighters.

As discussed in the previous threads, having fighters do a full restore is not the best idea, and no other game allows that, for a good reason (makes fighters very hard to kill, and everyone who wants to PK will just become a fighter).

 

Absolutely, i have 350 health with CoL, so restoration really r0x with my magic level. And is too powerful for my taste, so any limit, which one of the formulas brings, would be nice. Its just too easy to go down to 40-50 health and then get back more than 300 health for just 4 HE's.

 

Personally i prefer the first formula, but i can live with the 2nd one too.

 

Anything else than just getting back more than 300 health for 4 HE's is better imo than it is now

 

Piper

[Tauren]

Wouldn't this make the CoL essencially useless? You might get some high level mages wearing CoL's (or possibly CoM's) but they're going to break them very rarely as they won't be involved with direct combat other than the short time it takes a fighter to finish them off.

 

It's already difficult to shift high level crafting items and making it even more difficult is going to make high level crafting pretty pointless. Manufacturing already has a lot of items at high level that are worth making and sell a lot due to breakage but crafting does not and this will lower it even more. I think this will be a problem with all the formulae and would be made even worse with the addition in the quote above.

Have you taken a look at peoples' heads recently? Half the players have CoL's... It is so rare to see a player with actual armour on their heads. In case anyone has missed it, but there is such a thing as helmets! CoL's need to be reduced in the game considerably and weakening their strength is a thought, but yes you are right about the formula for crafting these items. If the col was initially weakened, the ingredients required will need to be altered as well.

 

Yeah, I spelled "nuxes" instead of "nexus" too, but I fixed it before you noticed, I guess. Oh well, I am not in the right place to have perfect spelling/grammar at the moment anyway (state of mind), you're lucky I can do that much, cause if this was math, you'd be correcting so much more, lol. Normally I don't make that mistake.

 

Seems like we're all focusing on something besides the topic, he he

 

 

Don't know newbie idea... hum. Sounds nice...

Well yeah I missed it but nonetheless I don't get pissed off about typos (assuming it was a typo? ). Sometimes it's hard to stay on subject when there are so many idiotic players to flame

 

"Me tinks dis is stoopid becoz i dun like it...ent dont be dum or i wil leave da game"

[TirunCollimdus]

 

Just looking back at the formula heal = magic * 9 * (rationality/100) the max health a player can obtain (with col etc.) is 390? (48 matter * 5 per matter = 240 + 150 col). Assuming the mage has max rationality 48, with this formula the mage will need 90 magic for a full restore, and this is fine but not for a newbie...

 

IMO once you hit 100 magic you should be strong enough for a full restore (if you maxed rationality).

So I'm thinking in order to achieve this and also help out the newbies: heal = 40 + magic * 8 * (rat/110)

With this formula, as soon as the mage hits 100 magic (and 48 rationality) the spell will be able to restore the entire max 390 health.

On the other hand, as soon as a newbie hits 21 magic (4 rationality), casting restoration will heal 46 which seems reasonable enough

 

Actually with CoL, MoL and dragonblade the max health available is 440 not 390. That is 50 points higher which is a lot. It takes a quite a few more levels for a full restore with that much more health.

 

What newbie with a 4 rationality is not going to be a physed out fighter or harvester? 21 magic would probably be around 100 health so less than half restored with heal spell. Not to mention that 4 heal spells would cost the same number of essences 5 less mana and be only 6 less health restored with a lot lower fail rate. Having a level 21 spell heal 46 health is not reasonable under any circumstances. Entropy is going with the first formula and IMO it is for very good reasons. Low level characters getting screwed as in the above example being high on that list.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Tauren]

Actually with CoL, MoL and dragonblade the max health available is 440 not 390. That is 50 points higher which is a lot. It takes a quite a few more levels for a full restore with that much more health.

 

What newbie with a 4 rationality is not going to be a physed out fighter or harvester? 21 magic would probably be around 100 health so less than half restored with heal spell. Not to mention that 4 heal spells would cost the same number of essences 5 less mana and be only 6 less health restored with a lot lower fail rate. Having a level 21 spell heal 46 health is not reasonable under any circumstances. Entropy is going with the first formula and IMO it is for very good reasons. Low level characters getting screwed as in the above example being high on that list.

 

TirunCollimdus

Oh right I didn't take those items into consideration, and yes the restoration heal still seems too low for a newbie when you compare it to the other heal spells. But I still don't think Ent needs to go ahead with the first formula, the 2nd can be adjusted so that it is suits both the pros and the newbs.

And so what if they're max physiqued? thats the price they pay for shoving all their attributes into one pot.

 

I'll take another shot at it... Heal = 70 + magic * 8.2 * (rationality / 106)

therefore -

pro mage lvl 100 rationality 48 = 441 health recovered (max possible health)

newb mage lvl 21 rationality 4 = 76

 

Sound reasonable?

 

edit: typo

Edited December 18, 2007 by Tauren