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DogBreath

Decay rates on enriched essences

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After reading the EFE pricing issues and the problem with hording as it was stated to be, and a failed suggestion at what people saw as "too drastic" a solution, I figured I'd try again.

 

I was inspired to suggest this from having a conversation with one such hoarder who had the same old reasons: well, I don't need them, but I might; or, why is having a pile of them bad? etc... This of course made the hair stand back up on my neck about this issue...

 

Then it dawned on me, why not put a "decay rate" on enriched essences. Whatever a reasonable rate would be (my first thought was one month, but I'm sure that'd piss off a few people, lol.) This would put an end to the whole issue and let you find an acceptable "drop rate" that stays nearly steady over time (given size changes in the server, etc...) This also "kills off" any EFEs on characters that haven't been played in some time period (maybe the rate could flucuate based on how much time you're on like, increasing when you're online an decreasing if not.)

 

This then polices itself and forces people to do something with the EFEs. It also opens up new, wonderful methods of scamming people, which I know several people think are quite fun :) (I can't say I share that opinion, but to each his own...)

 

I'm sure this might cause a programming nightmare, so if so, darn =\ I'm not sure if the items (even if stacked) are considered unique or not, and if making them such would make them hard to store, etc. But it seems like a simple solution on the surface, so I thought it'd be worth suggesting.

 

If it's impossible, oh well, at least I tried and I'll head back to the drawing board...

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Well, I'm not too fond of the idea of taking away from hoarders items they rightfully got. It's the same as you'd require people to hand down all the money they keep in their socks because it generates no profit and is just frozen.

Besides, the idea is completely impossible to implement. Can you imagine 10k-s of rare essences each with it's own timer? It'd require a lot of space in the database and would put more strain on the server (clearing "overdue" items all the time). With the current item system there is no way to tell which efe is which, they're all the same for server - just item number and quantity number.

Edited by Lotheneil

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Instead of forcing people to make something with their enriched essences rather find a reason for them to do it.

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Um, perhaps there could be something of a routine purge of 'excess' EFEs? Although it would kind of suck, I.E. You'd have to use/sell all your EFEs before the 'cleansing' it would mean the server would not have to store information about each and every EFE.

 

Quick Edit:IMO, having a "Best Before" date on Enriched Essences is worth implementing. Ideally speaking, every EFE would have a Best Before date (maybe 1-2 months?) but this would probably be too much for the server to handle, or it would have some serious repercussions.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, do we know (can we estimate) how many people have EFEs in their storages that no longer play? If the number is significant (maybe 45%+) perhaps a mass wipe of EFEs would be a good idea?

Edited by Aphistolas

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Um, perhaps there could be something of a routine purge of 'excess' EFEs? Although it would kind of suck, I.E. You'd have to use/sell all your EFEs before the 'cleansing' it would mean the server would not have to store information about each and every EFE.

 

Quick Edit:IMO, having a "Best Before" date on Enriched Essences is worth implementing. Ideally speaking, every EFE would have a Best Before date (maybe 1-2 months?) but this would probably be too much for the server to handle, or it would have some serious repercussions.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, do we know (can we estimate) how many people have EFEs in their storages that no longer play? If the number is significant (maybe 45%+) perhaps a mass wipe of EFEs would be a good idea?

Most of these questions, issues and answers were covered in the EFE market price discussion so you may want to refer to it. The "cleansing" idea (I called it a wipe) was also covered and sparked a huge amount of negative response.

 

@Kheres: if there could be some way to stimulate use, that'd be much better. As it is, people THINK they will need them 'one day' and hence may never use them or end up with way more than they need based on that perception. This might spark them into feeling a 'need' to use them more :)

 

@Lotheniel:

I understand what you mean about hard work, but if hoarding them is causing an issue with the entire server and market, then something needs to be done. This what entropy saw as the main problem the first time this topic was discussed.

 

I can't really speculate on the amount of time the server might need to do this, or the resource needed, as I don't know exactly how they are stored (maybe entropy could enlighten us on how they're kept.) If a database is used, a nightly trigger (or some such) could be run to make them expire, or each 'object' could have a timer on it and it would be more client side then just sending a message to the server when it expired.

 

Ty for your input on this, maybe we can get some clarification and expand on it.

Edited by DogBreath

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Most of these questions, issues and answers were covered in the EFE market price discussion so you may want to refer to it. The "cleansing" idea (I called it a wipe) was also covered and sparked a huge amount of negative response.

 

@Kheres: if there could be some way to stimulate use, that'd be much better. As it is, people THINK they will need them 'one day' and hence may never use them or end up with way more than they need based on that perception. This might spark them into feeling a 'need' to use them more :)

 

I can't really speculate on the amount of time the server might need to do this, or the resource needed, as I don't know exactly how they are stored (maybe entropy could enlighten us on how they're kept.) If a database is used, a nightly trigger (or some such) could be run to make them expire, or each 'object' could have a timer on it and it would be more client side then just sending a message to the server when it expired.

 

Ty for your input on this, maybe we can get some clarification and expand on it.

 

“It's going to get worse before it gets better” Isn't that what they say? In the long run, this should (((if it is a significant number))) benefit the community, as EFE will be more readily available/cheaper/whatever. I'm not an expert on economy, but surely if those EFE inactive players held were freed up it would be a gain to the players.

 

Indeed, I'd like to see that in-game too, but I guess only Entropy/Learner/Programmer (x) can say whether it's too much space, or whether it can be simplified somehow.

 

“Sometimes you have to chew an arm off to save a leg.” Or something other….

 

Semi-Quick Edit: Heh, you type fast DogBreath ;) Hope you don't mind if I miss out the mostly irrelevant parts.

Edited by Aphistolas

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This, IMO, is not hoarding. If they're selling them, then that's perfectly okay. If the number of inactive-EFEs (I'm calling them that now) is, like I said somewhere above 45% then I believe it would be worth it.

 

If this problem isn't nipped in the bud, it could continue to get worse, but that's just my $0.02.

 

Off-topic banter:If they wanted to make cash, then it would be better (if my mathematics is correct) to buy Rostogol Stones, though :)

Edited by Aphistolas

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I said bot owner but every player can buy it from shop and hold it in the storage.

So, how can you delete a game's item and shop's item too?

 

I'm an hoarder, yes. I like to spend my gc in rare items and I think to be the best customer

of many bots. In the past when EFE price was dropping every day I had almost 200 EFE:

 

tresev5.jpg

 

With the introduction of titanium plate I used almost 150 EFE in the guild project, so

who knows what can happen...

Like you can see, in the same time, I had a lot of ELE too. Well I used almost 200 ELE in only

30 minutes during the best PK contest of EL, so, again, who knows what can happen...

 

The same "old reason": well, I don't need them, but I might.... IT'S TRUE

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Had you searched in forums you would find a topic that is somehow related to this one. I mean food getting rot in storages. It was explained pretty well why it is impossible to implement.

I still find it interesting that people prefer forcing others to use something instead of making something to encourage people to do it. I guess it's just the easier way. Good luck with doing it.

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It's not hoarding if there is an unlimited supply of them, seeing as how there is not cap on the # in game, i propose we do NOT cause e*e's to decay.

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After reading the EFE pricing issues and the problem with hording as it was stated to be, and a failed suggestion at what people saw as "too drastic" a solution, I figured I'd try again.

 

in late 2005 efe's cost $1 from shop and sold for 7k each ingame, now efe's cost $2 and i can't even sell my 20 efe's for 6.7k each

 

the problem is ppl are just to cheap to pay a fair price for a item, hence ppl who have efe's horde them. if you want ppl to stop hording then pay a fair price for them and more ppl will sell.

 

instead of paying 6k-6.5k and whining that ppl won't sell and are hording spend 20 more minutes on blue lupines in pl and pay 6.7k-7k each and then you can complain that to many ppl want to sell to you

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Had you searched in forums you would find a topic that is somehow related to this one. I mean food getting rot in storages. It was explained pretty well why it is impossible to implement.

I still find it interesting that people prefer forcing others to use something instead of making something to encourage people to do it. I guess it's just the easier way. Good luck with doing it.

Had I searched the forums for something related to EFE or decay of them I'm not quite sure I'd see that food rotting would have been found, or that it would even be related. Maybe my telepathy is failing me :(

 

I did agree with you that encouraging players to use them would be better, so I'm not sure why you're saying it again, no matter how interesting you find it :(

 

But, since you ask... Isn't it apparent that this has already been attempted? There have been more and more items/recipes added over time, that use EFE, in an attempt (one would assume) to do just this. Best I can tell, it hasn't fixed the problem of stockpiling.

 

Maybe, just this once, you could 'encourage' others by giving your idea on how to encourage the use of them instead of pointing out (for the second time) that this would be a good idea yet not suggesting how. Please? :)

 

And, as I said in my opening statement of this idea, if it's impossible to implement I'll go back to the drawing board and try to think up something new (and post my suggestion as I'd urge you and others to do.)

 

As always, thank you for your thought stimulating comments :)

 

It's not hoarding if there is an unlimited supply of them, seeing as how there is not cap on the # in game, i propose we do NOT cause e*e's to decay.

While I agree with you on the math here, they're not limited by number, the fact that entropy has a number in his head that he'd like to see in the game, married with the way he can lower the rates until that number is acheieved implies there is a limit to them in the game :)

 

I said bot owner but every player can buy it from shop and hold it in the storage.

So, how can you delete a game's item and shop's item too?

 

I'm an hoarder, yes. I like to spend my gc in rare items and I think to be the best customer

of many bots. In the past when EFE price was dropping every day I had almost 200 EFE:

 

tresev5.jpg

 

With the introduction of titanium plate I used almost 150 EFE in the guild project, so

who knows what can happen...

Like you can see, in the same time, I had a lot of ELE too. Well I used almost 200 ELE in only

30 minutes during the best PK contest of EL, so, again, who knows what can happen...

 

The same "old reason": well, I don't need them, but I might.... IT'S TRUE

I don't claim that having them when you need them isn't a worthy cause. I'm simply saying that this stockpiling causes an imbalance that has spurred this kind of topic before and I'm just trying another way of solving it :P If entropy had said, no more than 200 EFE in the game, would you hold onto your 199 until no one else had any and the rest of the server could only make 1? :) I know that seems like an extreme case, but other than adjusting the numbers, that's what we have here. I'm just trying to provide a solution to this problem. Obviously cutting the rates down isn't solving and adding new items that use EFEs isn't either.

Edited by DogBreath

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After reading the EFE pricing issues and the problem with hording as it was stated to be, and a failed suggestion at what people saw as "too drastic" a solution, I figured I'd try again.

 

in late 2005 efe's cost $1 from shop and sold for 7k each ingame, now efe's cost $2 and i can't even sell my 20 efe's for 6.7k each

 

the problem is ppl are just to cheap to pay a fair price for a item, hence ppl who have efe's horde them. if you want ppl to stop hording then pay a fair price for them and more ppl will sell.

 

instead of paying 6k-6.5k and whining that ppl won't sell and are hording spend 20 more minutes on blue lupines in pl and pay 6.7k-7k each and then you can complain that to many ppl want to sell to you

I just did go buy one recently, and I have no issue with the price of them at all. I was only referring to that topic as part of the reason for this solution. I didn't whine about the price I paid nor did I complain about the number of people wanting to sell to me (I'm not quite sure how you read all of that into this or would accuse me of such.) :(

 

I did state, that in that topic, the reason that was pointed out as the issue was hoarding and that hoarding was pointed out as messing up the prices as well as other people's chances of getting one.

 

The main reason for me suggesting this was to help provide a long term solution to what is currently considered an issue in the game.

Edited by DogBreath

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If an NPC sold the enriched essences all the horders can keep their essences. It would put in a price cap for the essences, and could even be a price base for crafted items using them.

But enriched essences are supposed to be rare makes, making them valuable items, but hording them because your not getting the gc's you want for them, of course no one wants them when they are above market value and the items made from them are below the ingredient costs.

 

example:

I was looking for an Alembic and a Vial mold, they both use 1 EFE.

I see bots buying EFE's for 5.5kgc's - 6kgc's and selling them for 7kgc's

I see bots wanting Alembics for 5kgc's to 5.9kgc's and Vial Molds wanted for 5kgc's.

You might be able to get a better price from a person than a bot, but i doubt much differance, but you see the price differance, who really wants to loose money on their crafted items, they just wont make them.

Crafters should'nt just suck up the losses, the community is a whole, and should act like it.

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If an NPC sold the enriched essences all the horders can keep their essences. It would put in a price cap for the essences, and could even be a price base for crafted items using them.

<snip...>

Certainly an interesting suggestion.

 

I'm not sure how this would affect the 'shop' but I'm quite sure it would solve the hoarding problems. Requires a lot less programming and whoever has EFEs now could just keep them :whistle:

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I've commented on topics like this several times before and I guess I'll do it again...

 

1) Having an NPC sell enriched esses defeats the purpose of them being rare. They are supposed to be rare. Them being rare is supposed to help slow down production on items that require them.

 

2) It's all well and good for someone to say "suck it up and pay more and you won't have a problem finding a seller". I can say the same, "suck it up and quit whining that I charge cost on manu items I sell". But ya know what happens? I don't sell as much, hence, you don't sell as much (efe's) to me either. It's a viscious circle.

 

There is one aspect of the economy that has pretty much stayed the same since I became a competitor in it. In general, people do not want to pay cost for a finished product. And secondary to this, there is always someone willing to sell for less than you just to make a sale.

 

No, I don't think there should be an expiration date on enriched essences. Just allow Entropy to adjust the numbers as he sees fit. IIRC, there was mention on that last EFE thread about whiping old inventories. That would eliminate EFE's and other items from people who don't play anymore. And I personally think that is more than fair as long as the length of inactivity was long enough. Perhaps 2 years? Make a post on the forum as an announcement that if you haven't logged in in the past 2 years then your inventory will be cleaned and give 1-2 months notice before it's done so people could log on.

 

I wouldn't have a clue if there is even that many inactive people holding rare items to make that much of a difference though. And to keep from rambling on, I'll just end my post here :whistle:

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I've commented on topics like this several times before and I guess I'll do it again...

 

1) Having an NPC sell enriched esses defeats the purpose of them being rare. They are supposed to be rare. Them being rare is supposed to help slow down production on items that require them.

 

2) It's all well and good for someone to say "suck it up and pay more and you won't have a problem finding a seller". I can say the same, "suck it up and quit whining that I charge cost on manu items I sell". But ya know what happens? I don't sell as much, hence, you don't sell as much (efe's) to me either. It's a viscious circle.

 

There is one aspect of the economy that has pretty much stayed the same since I became a competitor in it. In general, people do not want to pay cost for a finished product. And secondary to this, there is always someone willing to sell for less than you just to make a sale.

 

No, I don't think there should be an expiration date on enriched essences. Just allow Entropy to adjust the numbers as he sees fit. IIRC, there was mention on that last EFE thread about whiping old inventories. That would eliminate EFE's and other items from people who don't play anymore. And I personally think that is more than fair as long as the length of inactivity was long enough. Perhaps 2 years? Make a post on the forum as an announcement that if you haven't logged in in the past 2 years then your inventory will be cleaned and give 1-2 months notice before it's done so people could log on.

 

I wouldn't have a clue if there is even that many inactive people holding rare items to make that much of a difference though. And to keep from rambling on, I'll just end my post here :)

Well, you're the only one (that I can remember) that agreed with the wipe idea (there could have been others, I'm not sure I want to re-read that long thread.) Too many people want to "hold on to their precious." Hrm, sounds like a story I remember. :D

 

I agree entropy can administer this over time, and do whatever is needed. But, isn't a long term solution what we/he wants? :) If people don't want a decay, and don't want a vendor ruining their prices, what do we do? Adding new items isn't helping, fixing the rates is a never ending battle that only makes the "have nots" mad. Surely there must be a better way.

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Have you read her post? CelticLady agreed on cleaning storages of inactive people (which I found a very good idea myself). It's far from your idea which was, as far as I remember, getting rid of all EFE in people's inventory.

Yes, there surely must be a better way to make 'us' stop hoarding eny enriched essences. Just make it beneficial for us to use them. Hard to do? Guess it is hard as you (our customers) hardly want to pay our costs.

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Isn't the price so much fluctuating because of the increase chance followed by a decrease chance in making EFE from the proces of making FE's?

 

I think hoarding isn't bad and the inactive-EFE's aren't bad as well. What made it bad was that it made Entropy decrease the production rates.

 

I have seen a few responses from Entropy on the issue that there were such and so many EFE's in the game, but that are no EFE's on the market. Hoarders and inactives don't sell very well ... hoarders only buy when prices are low enough and thus keeping the price on the rest of the EFE's on market very high.

 

If the making of EFE's is restored to old values (1 in 3k I believe? might be wrong here) than there will be a surplus of them in market again - at least over time, when there are enough of them created again -. With that surplus, market will settle to somewhat lower prices, but there is a market for them!

 

Hoarders will get there hands on easier EFE's and players that actually want to make something can also buy them!

 

 

Because of all these discussions more and more people will be triggered into hoarding! It's like a few years ago in Holland, where there was a problem in milk delivery for a few days. People can live through a few days without milk, but all the shelves were empty for 2 weeks in a row! Scared of it happening again! So after the supply restored, people staid frenzy in buying the milk and keeping the shelves empty.

 

It kinda works in EL with EFE's as well. If I would be very lucky and create 3 EFE's within 1k of FE's ... I wouldn't sell them. Not any time soon at least ... because IF I would need them in the future, you KNOW how hard they are to buy, because of the discussion that is going on now. This wouldn't be a problem if there is just a market for them. I will sell them (freshly made) because I don't need them now and will buy them back if I will need them (if ever!)

 

 

That's my view about this topic.

 

In short: restore to old values to restore market

Edited by GarfieldClown

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Here are my 2 (euro)cents on this topic.

 

I would suggest the follow (after a long discussion):

- step 1: set an adjustable limit on the enriched stuff, might be related to summon level/craft/manu... like 1 enirched item more each or 2 levels you gain.

- step 2: announce this limit

- step 3: people have 2 choices:

==> 1 get a price or a pp for X amount of enriched things they hand in (the more enriched things they hand in the bigger the price or the more pps they get)

==> 2 and if they don't want to hand their enriched things in it's too bad cause they will lose all the enriched things above the limit.

Side note: you can always use them too ofc

- step 4 implement the limit and remove the enriched things which are too much in stores of players

 

This idea can be adjusted but might make people use their enriched things :)

Comments are welcome but don't start to flame plz

 

Greetz

 

Pater

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Here are my 2 (euro)cents on this topic.

 

I would suggest the follow (after a long discussion):

- step 1: set an adjustable limit on the enriched stuff, might be related to summon level/craft/manu... like 1 enirched item more each or 2 levels you gain.

- step 2: announce this limit

- step 3: people have 2 choices:

==> 1 get a price or a pp for X amount of enriched things they hand in (the more enriched things they hand in the bigger the price or the more pps they get)

==> 2 and if they don't want to hand their enriched things in it's too bad cause they will lose all the enriched things above the limit.

Side note: you can always use them too ofc

- step 4 implement the limit and remove the enriched things which are too much in stores of players

 

This idea can be adjusted but might make people use their enriched things :)

Comments are welcome but don't start to flame plz

 

Greetz

 

Pater

Anything that might initiate some long term solution seems great to me. This might cause some issues with bots however, either becoming storage for EFEs or not being able to buy/sell them due to limits. Selling might also be tricky as the person might be at the limit that they're selling too. Still, all of this might be able to be worked around. No attempt at an idea is a bad one in my opinion :)

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No attempt at an idea is a bad one in my opinion wink.gif

 

Yes, especially ones which implementation is on the cost of others. A very good attitude.

Once again, why don't burn your energy others on something more productive, in example finding some solutions that would make people like me want use our enriched essences. So far you seem to look for ways to force us to use the essences. Oppressiveness leads nowhere. There are more than enough proves of this thesis in the history.

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No attempt at an idea is a bad one in my opinion wink.gif

 

Yes, especially ones which implementation is on the cost of others. A very good attitude.

Once again, why don't burn your energy others on something more productive, in example finding some solutions that would make people like me want use our enriched essences. So far you seem to look for ways to force us to use the essences. Oppressiveness leads nowhere. There are more than enough proves of this thesis in the history.

 

Attitude really necessary, now?

 

DogBreath is merely trying to come up with a solution, not oppress anyone, or did I miss that episode?

 

Perhaps a mass EFE wipe is not the best idea, but like I said before surely it would benefit the community if inactive player #(x) EFE was revoked, since there is no way to do this (that has been suggested anyway) I guess we'll just have to live with this problem, coming back to it later when the price for EFE once again fluctuates.

 

I'm for the idea of more uses of EFE now, or perhaps Ent could just make it less likely to make one, bleh who knows.

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How in Draia do you think that imposing a limit on the number of enriched esses we can have will help with the situation? Yes, there would be less total enriched essences in game, but the issue of people hoarding and such would still be there. It does not give people reason to sell the ones they have or use the ones they have if they don't make their own FE. As a general rule, I don't make my own FE so I wouldn't need to worry about producing one I couldn't keep.

 

Do you realize that it takes 8 EFE just to make a Titanium Plate set? So what would you impose the limit at? I have used over 40 EFE in one day alone. I think at one point in time I had over 200 of them in my storage.

 

As long as there is a free market where people may buy and sell at whatever prices they choose, I don't see this changing. Those that produce items don't want to lose too much gc selling it. (Yes, we get xp for making something, but honestly, most manuers don't lvl making Ti Plates. Those high end items are supposed to get us gc, IMHO) Those that sell the EFE's just want gc for what they made on accident. (or rarely with an enrichmment stone) People know we need them to make finished products and they know that if we want to make an item now then most will pay what they want.

 

I think some people don't see this situation from all angles. Limiting the number of EFE's we can each have doesn't just affect the hoarders. It also affects those of us that keep a stock of them to use.

 

EDIT: spelling and math :)

 

 

P.S. I don't think that more uses of EFE would help either. What Vanyel has been getting at is there isn't an item that is worth making from some peoples view. Why do I want to make a vial mold and get some xp out of it when it costs me GC? If I'm after xp then I make leather helms in the manu school or S2E's for hydro or to sell.

 

P.P.S. I don't mean for my tone to be harsh. It's just that this has been discussed several times before and it's always the same thing that is brought up as a 'solution' but people don't seem to look at it from all angles.

Edited by CelticLady

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