Mage class, Fighter class

[FatboyJaxx]

Pure mages will have to put many PP to Will Coordination and Instint...............Will for Hitpoints mana and rationality, Coordination for....well because coordination pawns...Instint for the "you cant hit me" and Perception,charm

 

 

The attribute cap is pointless then, if you need to put pp's on every attribute to get anywhere then people are going to have 20-30pp's on each attribute, maybe some slightly stronger specialisations but not much.

 

Not pointless at all. I will want to hit hard and fast, so 48P 48C maybe someday 48R the rest on vitality..Different build then a mage that doesnt want to hit you, just survive long and deal damage with magic.

 

 

To be a powerful mage though you're going to want 48 rationality which means you need 48 reasoning as well as the others you have mentioned. That means according to your model you need to max out 4 attributes rather than a fighter that maxes out 3.

 

It's going to be a lot harder for mages to level OA due to the exp you get from a/d as well, which will make being a mage even harder and it's unlikely you'll max out 4 attributes.

 

Then comes the thought that if you're not going to max out all those attributes you need to drop the coordination down, by this time you have no EMU and hardly any nexus to make anything. How do you make money?

 

 

EDIT : Quoted too much, cut it down.

Edited December 17, 2007 by FatboyJaxx

[conavar]

 

well I think we have succeeded in making people think about char builds and not just all coord

[halsort]

Player with 16P and 80 cooridination if he is a fighter will end up maxing out 48C and rounding up P...With the overalls mentioned, if they are exactly = it will work out the same( No fighter has 16P if they do, they are not a very good fighter)

This was an extreme senario Jumpy and i know 16 physique was low. but even if the figures were upped to 48/48 and 38/58 then the player getting the 10pps back would use them in perception like Ent has advised.

 

Edited by Entropy: STOP QUOTTING THE WHOLE GOD DAMN THREAD AND ONLY QUOTE THE RELEVANT SECTIONS!!!

[Wizzy]

Pure mages will have to put many PP to Will Coordination and Instint...............Will for Hitpoints mana and rationality, Coordination for....well because coordination pawns...Instint for the "you cant hit me" and Perception,charm

 

 

The attribute cap is pointless then, if you need to put pp's on every attribute to get anywhere then people are going to have 20-30pp's on each attribute, maybe some slightly stronger specialisations but not much.

 

Not pointless at all. I will want to hit hard and fast, so 48P 48C maybe someday 48R the rest on vitality..Different build then a mage that doesnt want to hit you, just survive long and deal damage with magic.

 

 

To be a powerful mage though you're going to want 48 rationality which means you need 48 reasoning as well as the others you have mentioned. That means according to your model you need to max out 4 attributes rather than a fighter that maxes out 3.

 

It's going to be a lot harder for mages to level OA due to the exp you get from a/d as well, which will make being a mage even harder and it's unlikely you'll max out 4 attributes.

 

Then comes the thought that if you're not going to max out all those attributes you need to drop the coordination down, by this time you have no EMU and hardly any nexus to make anything. How do you make money?

 

 

EDIT : Quoted too much, cut it down.

 

Since no one will max out all attributes, a pure mage will be wise to max out will for Mana, Hit points Rationality. Instict will be important also. And Coordination for emu. I think the emu problem will be equal for all. As a Sword weilding fellow like me, I most likely will not max out P. So I will suffer with the less emu. I will put more PP in Reasoning and vitality for dexterity. Where a mage may also need to suffer with less emu for more mana. And the ability to dodge the hits from fighters. Honestly, I dont have all the awnsers..I am in the dark of a perfect build as much as anyone. But I can easily see Something is going to suffer in my build, either Hitpoints, mana, Might..one or the other...At least I am not the only one with this problem. Think we are all in the same boat there.

[TirunCollimdus]

 

To be a powerful mage though you're going to want 48 rationality which means you need 48 reasoning as well as the others you have mentioned. That means according to your model you need to max out 4 attributes rather than a fighter that maxes out 3.

 

It's going to be a lot harder for mages to level OA due to the exp you get from a/d as well, which will make being a mage even harder and it's unlikely you'll max out 4 attributes.

 

Then comes the thought that if you're not going to max out all those attributes you need to drop the coordination down, by this time you have no EMU and hardly any nexus to make anything. How do you make money?

 

 

EDIT : Quoted too much, cut it down.

 

Yes. I already mentioned that in one of my posts. Needing emu and rationality does not leave you enough pick points to take instinct and avoid getting hit or vitality to withstand damage. 98 pick points just to max rationality and then settle for a reasonable emu plus the other attribute you need to use to survive a fight. Not a good way to do it.

 

Using magic nexus and rationality could however compensate. If you max will and put 10 or so points in magic nexus and come up with a similar strength to someone who did 48 rationality then it is much more feasible. Using this as I previously mentioned on summoning helps provide for very different types of characters with all of the other stuff in game and mixing this stuff making for a lot of choices.

 

TirunCollimdus

[LevinMage]

Besides, this problem is going to hurt everyone, not only you. It's the price of progress.

Of course it hurts everyone. My point is that it hurts some more than others. I just think that the option to redistribute PP's will be more fair to ALL players. And it's not only me who thinks that, many others have stated the same.

There have been many, many decisions that have "hurt" other people more than others. Off the top of my head, some have been cooldown/stacking of SR which had many people resetting due to vegetal nexus, introduction of NMT cape (what about people who had perk), people got to have the Artificer Perk removed instead of having to reset, etc, the list goes on.

 

I think the people who are going to be hit by the cap are probably more "hurt" than those who are not since they obviously planned their entire build on those higher attributes than someone who didn't. If you have a perk that you don't want or attributes that you want to redistribute you can always use #reset, thats what it is there for.

 

It seems like some people are trying to take advantage of the situation by trying dodge their way around a reset because they had poor attribute or perk choices.

Edited December 17, 2007 by LevinMage

[TirunCollimdus]

RogerDeLluria:

 

There have been many, many decisions that have "hurt" other people more than others. Off the top of my head, some have been cooldown/stacking of SR which had many people resetting due to vegetal nexus, introduction of NMT cape (what about people who had perk), people got to have the Artificer Perk removed instead of having to reset, etc, the list goes on.

 

I think the people who are going to be hit by the cap are probably more "hurt" than those who are not since they obviously planned their entire build on those higher attributes than someone who didn't. If you have a perk that you don't want or attributes that you want to redistribute you can always use #reset, thats what it is there for.

 

It seems like some people are trying to take advantage of the situation by trying dodge their way around a reset because they had poor attribute or perk choices.

 

No. It is not having to reset because of poor attribute or perk choices. The choices were good ones when made and accomplished a specific goal that was set within the old system before the cap. The people who have the uber high builds will be hurt the least since they will have the most pick points returned and be best able to adapt to the cap.

 

People are complaining because they have put a lot of work and levels into builds that were extremely functional before the cap and feel if the players who are higher level are getting such a great chance to adjust then the people who are not so high should get the same chance to adapt. I will personally still wait to reset even after the cap unless something special happens like a reset for everyone without OA loss. Others are in much worse shape and will be forced to reset losing their goals and progress. No one IMO is trying to dodge anything. Just looking for some fairness in the winds of a massive change.

 

TirunCollimdus

[FatboyJaxx]

 

Yes. I already mentioned that in one of my posts. Needing emu and rationality does not leave you enough pick points to take instinct and avoid getting hit or vitality to withstand damage. 98 pick points just to max rationality and then settle for a reasonable emu plus the other attribute you need to use to survive a fight. Not a good way to do it.

 

Using magic nexus and rationality could however compensate. If you max will and put 10 or so points in magic nexus and come up with a similar strength to someone who did 48 rationality then it is much more feasible. Using this as I previously mentioned on summoning helps provide for very different types of characters with all of the other stuff in game and mixing this stuff making for a lot of choices.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

I agree that this is going to be a problem but I'm not sure tying it to magic nexus would work. If you tie it to magic nexus you have the possibility of people actually getting around the cap so to speak by maxing will, reasoning and the nexus. If that was the case you would have to do that to compete at high levels so anyone wanting to be a high level mage will have to sacrifice all (or virtually all) their EMU again.

[TirunCollimdus]

 

Yes. I already mentioned that in one of my posts. Needing emu and rationality does not leave you enough pick points to take instinct and avoid getting hit or vitality to withstand damage. 98 pick points just to max rationality and then settle for a reasonable emu plus the other attribute you need to use to survive a fight. Not a good way to do it.

 

Using magic nexus and rationality could however compensate. If you max will and put 10 or so points in magic nexus and come up with a similar strength to someone who did 48 rationality then it is much more feasible. Using this as I previously mentioned on summoning helps provide for very different types of characters with all of the other stuff in game and mixing this stuff making for a lot of choices.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

I agree that this is going to be a problem but I'm not sure tying it to magic nexus would work. If you tie it to magic nexus you have the possibility of people actually getting around the cap so to speak by maxing will, reasoning and the nexus. If that was the case you would have to do that to compete at high levels so anyone wanting to be a high level mage will have to sacrifice all (or virtually all) their EMU again.

 

Maxing will, reasoning and the nexus would not be getting around the cap. It would be following the available path. There has to be a way to get to the highest level as a mage. Some mages will choose more instinct, and or vitality over coord to go along with their rationality and nexus. What more should a mage need to become the top than max rationality and maxing the nexus. We all have to understand that being at the top with max attributes for any class is going to be a nearly unattainable goal. That is where the different choices in builds comes in.

 

The nexus increasing magic ability cheaper and faster than getting rationality is a way to allow mages to have a means to have enough pick points to be able to put some into coord and other attributes. You cannot wait to become a powerful mage until you max rationality and still have enough pick points to fill out other attributes. You have to have some power along the way to be able to get to the top level. The nexus idea allows you at the least the chance to get there.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Entropy]

I think there is an aspect most of the people forget about:

EL does NOT have a strict class system. There is no need to put ALL your PPs in 2 attributes. If you want to be a PURE mage, then yes, you will suffer the consequences (low EMU and so on).

 

Oh, and

 

I think there is an aspect most of the people forget about:

EL does NOT have a strict class system. There is no need to put ALL your PPs in 2 attributes. If you want to be a PURE mage, then yes, you will suffer the consequences (low EMU and so on).

 

Oh, and FOR FUCKS SAKE, STOP QUOTTING MORE THAN THE RELEVANT PASSAGE! DON'T QUOTE A WHOLE POST WITH IT'S QUOTES! IF I SEE THAT AGAIN, I AM GOING TO DELETE THE WHOLE POST!

[The_Piper]

EL does not have a fixed class/carreer system, but with a cap on attribs/levels you will end with that everybody is an allrounder.

 

When everbody who plays for a longer time invests the pickpoints in the remaining attribs/nexies will come up with all attribs/nexus at he max level, the end of the game is being an allrounder.

 

Which may take some time and is IMO much better than having some bullies in game with 128 coord or such.

 

Yes, its not a class system, but at the end you will be an allrounder. If you dont like that, you just can start a new char and try another career, which doesnt sound that bad for me.

 

Its much better than having bullies with 128 phys/coord in game IMO.

 

Well, just my 2 cents.

 

Piper

[TirunCollimdus]

I think there is an aspect most of the people forget about:

EL does NOT have a strict class system. There is no need to put ALL your PPs in 2 attributes. If you want to be a PURE mage, then yes, you will suffer the consequences (low EMU and so on).

 

 

That is what I was trying to say with my post. I was also trying to say that basing the strength of a mage on rationality requires a massive number of pick points on attributes that do not allow a character to do anything else. No EMU and no way to avoid or absorb damage. The spells available in the game have no way at all of compensating for these limitations. You must have some emu and mages considering how many essences are needed to cast just one spell are going to need more than just a token amount. You cannot use magic to defend yourself in game so something has to be put on coord, instinct or vitality or all three.

 

Unless the magic system changes over night and completely in function players who want to be mages have to have some attributes beside will and reasoning. That is why the magic nexus was suggested to bear some of the load at a cheaper cost than rationality.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Laira]

I do not mind the attribute cap but the magic is a little too much the game i know needs some changes but not magic. i wouldn't mind if we made the restore like this:

 

 

 

Restore is a fully workable lvl ate 35 (cast it to its full extent like what it is now)

you can cast restore at any time past the lvl 24 but you do not get the full extent of the spell (only get half of ur HP) this i dont think people would mind. but i dont know you made this awesome game so you should do what is best for the Game PLayers...

 

 

the example i gave isn;t perfect but it is a idea

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks

[Entropy]

I was also trying to say that basing the strength of a mage on rationality requires a massive number of pick points on attributes that do not allow a character to do anything else. No EMU and no way to avoid or absorb damage. The spells available in the game have no way at all of compensating for these limitations. You must have some emu and mages considering how many essences are needed to cast just one spell are going to need more than just a token amount. You cannot use magic to defend yourself in game so something has to be put on coord, instinct or vitality or all three.

 

In most of the games and books, mages are not strong fighters (if they are, then they are warlocks). If a strong mage will be able to do something like 90 damage with a spell, then 2 or 3 mages together can take out any strong fighter. And, of course, mages can very well team with fighters, especially for Pk purposes.

Right now, pure mages would be useless in PK.

[TirunCollimdus]

EL does not have a fixed class/carreer system, but with a cap on attribs/levels you will end with that everybody is an allrounder.

 

When everbody who plays for a longer time invests the pickpoints in the remaining attribs/nexies will come up with all attribs/nexus at he max level, the end of the game is being an allrounder.

 

Yes, its not a class system, but at the end you will be an allrounder. If you dont like that, you just can start a new char and try another career, which doesnt sound that bad for me.

 

Piper

 

 

That is not correct. 4 attributes at max is 176 points. Add the nexus you need to do anything in game and you wind up with as many pick points as you can possibly get if you reach that OA with a couple still available by level and the rest by alternative means. That means 2 billion experience plus negging out and/or buying/removing nexus. You are not going to have enough pick points to do everything all at once anywhere near the top level no matter how long you play. It just won't happen. You can pick multiple different paths and be at the top of that particular path. You can reset and rotate from one pursuit to another but that just means you can do all skills. You cannot be a top fighter, mage, archer and summoner all at the same time because of attribute limitations.

 

The cap is not going to make all rounders out of everyone because it just takes too many nexus and pick points. If the suggestions of Icy, Conavar and myself are taken into consideration it will take even more nexus to do everything at the top levels and push the diversity of character builds to its maximum. You can get enough pick points to be very strong in one aspect without having enough to be strong in all of them.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Sonic]

If a strong mage will be able to do something like 90 damage with a spell, then 2 or 3 mages together can take out any strong fighter

 

Eeeek...time to add my 2gc. If they are dealing such amounts of damage im guessing they will have had to totally specialize in the "mage" attibutes(possibly nexus as well it seems), leaving little pp's for p/c. My concern would be...if a mage(or group of mages) actually manages to kill a pk'er...would they even have space to pick up the db?...never mind being able to hold all those essences/sr's/emps..and possibly have armour and sword.

 

To just touch apon the practicality of having a low emu in general for such a "high" level mage class would be frustrating harvesting/mixing/fighting(ie playing the game in general would be undesireble because of the sheer inconvienence).

 

I like the idea of leaving the restoration spell as it is. Keeping the damage delt for attack spells dependent on magic level is still the way to go IMO. People are throwing around level "80" magic as if it were NOTHING in this thread...i just checked the Top Players lists...and in magic..the 48th person(sorry you were like the only person to not have privacy on ) only has 68 magic. My point is...people are throwing calculations with high magic lvl's...when the VAST majority has way below that. Yes i understand that the lvl's are increasing all the time...but it's one of the least lvl'ed skill(aside from the new skills).

 

I like the idea of us players leveling a skill to be better at it...not just throwing piles of pp's gotten from neg perks....its starting to sound like the whole "fighter putting everything on co-ord" thing all over again. I voted for the attribute caps...like most people did...in hope that the time we spent training a skill is rewarded more than some nooby visiting the wraith and neg'ing completly.

 

(/end ranting)---> for now anyway...

Edited December 17, 2007 by GerbilD

[Entropy]

Eeeek...time to add my 2gc. If they are dealing such amounts of damage im guessing they will have had to totally specialize in the "mage" attibutes(possibly nexus as well it seems), leaving little pp's for p/c. My concern would be...if a mage(or group of mages) actually manages to kill a pk'er...would they even have space to pick up the db?...never mind being able to hold all those essences/sr's/emps..and possibly have armour and sword.

Again, the choice is yours. You can invest a few PPs so you have a more reasonable EMU, at the expense of some damage (80 instead of 90). Or level the magic skill even more.

 

Another advantage of the mages is that having such a low meele combat ability, there is no reason for them to carry weapons and armors, so they can carry only potions and essences. Which also means that rostogol stones are not needed (unless if they want to use some expensive thing such as the CoM).

 

To just touch apon the practicality of having a low emu in general for such a "high" level mage class would be frustrating harvesting/mixing/fighting(ie playing the game in general would be undesireble because of the sheer inconvienence).

Which is why you join guilds. You focus on magic, others focus on helping you, so everyone wins.

 

I like the idea of leaving the restoration spell as it is.

This would make the mage class totally useless, if fighters can heal their 400+ health with one spell.

[EvilJoe]

This is very exciting.

 

God bless you radu!

[affreckles]

I would be curious to see how it goes and good job on the current client entropy and the development it works much better

[Kapone]

I love the idea of a Mage in the game, its the only class that was missing, and a very important. Changes will make dealing w/the cap a lot easier, and magic will play a very important role; however the proposed formula for the restoration spell does sound really bad, because just about anyone w/a low magic level will be able to get a full restore by just placing a few pp's in the right spot. I honestly think that a mage's magic lvl should be rewarded w/the most importan spell for fighters; restoration, and that a lvl 100 should definitely get a better restore than that w/a lvl 50.

[conavar]

After reading the many posts it seems to me that many people are in favour of a mage class, the only problem is they dont want to sacrafice anything to get it, they want to be an uber mage and uber fighter and uber mixer and uber crafter.. tad greedy in my book.

There has got to be a compromise somewhere, EL will still be a classless game but this system will let people be a " class " if they want to without being forced.

You could be a jack of all trades but master of none or concentrate on being a pure uber fighter or uber mage or a strong ish fighter mage or just do as people do now and craft/manu/alch etc..

 

and yes I agree with Tirun in the aspect that nexus should play a part in many skills like magic.. the more attributes/nexus are used the more diverse characters you get because there are more options on how to build your character..

[kylass]

I may have got this totally wrong but im ceratain someone will be quick to enlighten me if i have. My point is with this new proposed restore formula it seems that those who have over maxed on coords will get pp back to place straight on reasoning and will giving them a head start on the restore spell whilst those who have a more even spread of pps inc nexus. even if at the same oa level will need to either reset or work for ages to get any reasonable level of restore. Thus giving the advantage to those players who have over maxed on coords - i havnt worked out what my own restore would be but atm as not sure which formula will be favoured in the end. but as example I have an oa of 106, magic 47 reasoning 4 and will 12 (coord 44 so no return of pp) again im guessing but for a "reasonably" experienced player i think i will be restoring like a newbie (btw i could never afford enough stones to remove enough pps to be useful) please correct me if im wrong it may even convince me to vote yes if it comes to a poll as in general I quite like the idea of other attributes being more important it will add an extra dimension to the gameplay. But if its a case of no more fluffies for me and back to IP bunnies I couldn't in all seriousness vote for the change

[Hex]

Kylass, you'll be restoring 130 HP with the new formula. Ent has said earlier those who are farther ahead deserve an advantage for their work. However, the advantage is smaller than you think. The following is fictional, but consistent with a high-level player.

 

OA: 136

A/D: 120/132

P/C/W: 40/100/20

Perks Taken: PowerHungry, ScottyDied, Antisocial

Human Nexus from Hydro Bars.

 

After the cap, this player would get 52 PPs back. 8 would go to Phys, leaving 44 PPs. There are many options for where to put them, reasoning being one of the least desirable. Will and Vitality would make for a better fighter. In any case, this player has only 44 PPs to redistribute, all while keeping in mind that perception below 20 may be unwise. It would take 32 PPs to get perception to 20. Now there are 12 PPs left. This player won't be the pwn-all-others type as before. There's still an advantage here, but not one as significant as 100 coord.

[masterpiter]

Kylass:

Being able to restore 130hp is more than enough if u train/fight fluffies.

I have kileld over 34k fluffies after counters were introduced and probably even more before, 99% of them i killed w/o using a CoL and i restored less than 130hp, dont see any problem to tell the truth

 

mp

[hades]

So true i killed thousands of fluffy with phy 36 , will 16 , coord 46, no COL + NMT and was pretty okay the restore.