Mage class, Fighter class

[Wizzy]

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Okay so everyone gets to spend tons more time making HEs and SRs. Everyone is forced to use pick points to be stronger as a battle mage or as fighter so you cannot really fight with magic or a sword and do the other skills. Pick points suddenly are required all over everywhere and what do you have left. Levels mean nothing except in att/def. Magic lvl * 1.5: 20 * 1.5 =30, 30 * 1.5 = 45, 40 * 1.5 = 60, 50 * 1.5 = 75.

 

20 ~ 30

30 ~ 45

40 ~ 60

50 ~ 75

 

30 levels in magic and you go up 45 health? This is a powerful mage? roflmao This makes restoration little more than a joke without rationality. Magic is a LOT harder to raise than any other skill. It has no end product and only helps you do other skills. You can use magic to fight with as an end product but then you are using mana to fight and to heal. How far is that going to get you with as weak as the planned restoration is going to be? Will this pay for itself. Not on your life. You cannot train mobs with magic at this rate so where is this 'powerful' mage I keep hearing about? What a load of garbage.

 

If we stick with the 1.5 * lvl and 5 * rationality I think there must be other changes to accomodate the weakness inherent in the magic system.

 

1) Restoration should be 1 second recharge instead of 2 seconds since it does not heal hardly anything compared to the full restore.

2) The mana cost for restoration should also go down since the spell is spectacularly weaker. It should take 20 mana at most if not lower.

3) Higher magic levels could instead reduce casting costs for this or all spells.

4) Restoration could have a bonus added to the amount healed. My idea is 10 health for each 10 levels of skill in magic. This would make your levels worth more without multiplying them directly.

 

If the whole 'lets make classes bandwagon' gets jumped on we need to do it right and not half@$$ it. You want a powerful mage? Give the mage a way to fight and heal without running out of mana in two seconds.

I think making classes with the attributes like this will permanently damage all rounders but you had to work harder to be one already so it won't change much. You just will have to work even harder. IMO all of these changes are great for those who are over the cap or just starting and suck for everyone in between. Reset anyone? We deal with it. I still support the cap but I wish we had more time to talk about the rest.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

I could take a char from level zero to level 30 magic in a few days If I put my mind to it, and got lucky to be left alone in TD Level 30 is not a powerfull mage...Level 150 would be..No one has reached this level yet of course, there has been no motivation....Time will tell

[Ryuu]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

 

It's not like they cannot be tweaked if needed, right? I would say let's try it and if something needs changes it may be done with time. We will never know unless we try.

Yes, that's true. but maybe magic*1+rationality*10 would be nice for restoration spell, because if it's only rationality*5 it will be very hard to max out restore for your HP if you go for a build with a lot of will.

 

Yes -- exactly why it shouldn't be rationality*10. If players will all of a sudden have 400+ material points to restore, it should take more pickpoints to restore all of it. Also, high will builds will have tons of mana. If someone wants to have high material points as well as high mana, it is reasonable to restore less health per cast with lower rationality.

 

I do like to see the magic skill level actually counting towards restoration. Something like 2x magic (plus a smaller rationality bonus) would look great for me...though I am of course biased in that respect.

With that said, will provides material points, ethereal points, and rationality, which makes it the perfect mage attribute. Maybe this would prove to be too strong, if maxed out? (edit: too strong with a 5x rationality multiplier in the restoration formula, I mean)

OK, when I said hard, it should have read impossible. Even with maxing your rationality attributes and magic level 100, you wouldn't be able to have a full restore.

[Entropy]

OK, when I said hard, it should have read impossible. Even with maxing your rationality attributes and magic level 100, you wouldn't be able to have a full restore.

 

You must have a lot of HP if 100*1.5+48*5 (which equals 150+240=390) is not enough for you.

[Shujral]

I personally do not like this idea, but will of course respect the decisions that are made by the developers and the majority of the community. In my opinion, the people who have worked their way up to 49 magic (no fail restore, as most of us know), have well deserved their ability to regain all their health, all the time. I personally would much rather see the mana needed for restore increased. If you needed....say, 50 mana to restore (instead of 25) this would still force people to invest in other attributes...I currently have 18 will, which gives me enough mana to restore 3 times without potting again. As most would agree, 14 PP's is a serious investment (although not at my resetted OA). Well im sure there are many flaws to the above tested system, my general point is that I don't like the particular idea being put out there. As i stated above though, i wont bitch/cry/leave the game because of changes in the systems

 

 

 

Thanks for your time,

-Shuj

[asgnny]

OK, when I said hard, it should have read impossible. Even with maxing your rationality attributes and magic level 100, you wouldn't be able to have a full restore.

 

You must have a lot of HP if 100*1.5+48*5 (which equals 150+240=390) is not enough for you.

 

Another consideration: Players with 300 material points currently need to restore at about 220 material points (if not more) while fighting stronger creatures or other players. If I were to try to restore at 1 material point all the time to take advantage of my uber rationality, I'd wind up exploiting the 'free' 5 material points as I hit the underworld.

Edited December 16, 2007 by asgnny

[Ryuu]

OK, when I said hard, it should have read impossible. Even with maxing your rationality attributes and magic level 100, you wouldn't be able to have a full restore.

 

You must have a lot of HP if 100*1.5+48*5 (which equals 150+240=390) is not enough for you.

Yes, if you have CoL+MoL and 48 phys (and because you already maxed will for rationality) that will be 420hp.

[MistickIce]

oops logged into wrong account. Using one computer due to technical difficulties.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Icy

[Entropy]

Yes, if you have CoL+MoL and 48 phys (and because you already maxed will for rationality) that will be 420hp.

 

You must be fighting rats if you restore when you are less than 30 points away from being dead.

[TirunCollimdus]

______

/*******\

|**ALL***|

|ROUNDER|

|********|

|***RIP**|

|********|

 

Okay so everyone gets to spend tons more time making HEs and SRs. Everyone is forced to use pick points to be stronger as a battle mage or as fighter so you cannot really fight with magic or a sword and do the other skills. Pick points suddenly are required all over everywhere and what do you have left. Levels mean nothing except in att/def. Magic lvl * 1.5: 20 * 1.5 =30, 30 * 1.5 = 45, 40 * 1.5 = 60, 50 * 1.5 = 75.

 

20 ~ 30

30 ~ 45

40 ~ 60

50 ~ 75

 

30 levels in magic and you go up 45 health? This is a powerful mage? roflmao This makes restoration little more than a joke without rationality. Magic is a LOT harder to raise than any other skill. It has no end product and only helps you do other skills. You can use magic to fight with as an end product but then you are using mana to fight and to heal. How far is that going to get you with as weak as the planned restoration is going to be? Will this pay for itself. Not on your life. You cannot train mobs with magic at this rate so where is this 'powerful' mage I keep hearing about? What a load of garbage.

 

If we stick with the 1.5 * lvl and 5 * rationality I think there must be other changes to accomodate the weakness inherent in the magic system.

 

1) Restoration should be 1 second recharge instead of 2 seconds since it does not heal hardly anything compared to the full restore.

2) The mana cost for restoration should also go down since the spell is spectacularly weaker. It should take 20 mana at most if not lower.

3) Higher magic levels could instead reduce casting costs for this or all spells.

4) Restoration could have a bonus added to the amount healed. My idea is 10 health for each 10 levels of skill in magic. This would make your levels worth more without multiplying them directly.

 

If the whole 'lets make classes bandwagon' gets jumped on we need to do it right and not half@$$ it. You want a powerful mage? Give the mage a way to fight and heal without running out of mana in two seconds.

I think making classes with the attributes like this will permanently damage all rounders but you had to work harder to be one already so it won't change much. You just will have to work even harder. IMO all of these changes are great for those who are over the cap or just starting and suck for everyone in between. Reset anyone? We deal with it. I still support the cap but I wish we had more time to talk about the rest.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

I could take a char from level zero to level 30 magic in a few days If I put my mind to it, and got lucky to be left alone in TD Level 30 is not a powerfull mage...Level 150 would be..No one has reached this level yet of course, there has been no motivation....Time will tell

 

Jumpy perhaps you skimmed the fact that the lowest magic level I started with was level 20. I would very much like to see you get left alone long enough in TD to get from level 20 magic to level 50. Not going to happen. Level 50 is not powerful considering the top players are in the 80s but it is definitely a good part of the way there. No one has sniffed at level 100 to my knowlege let alone 150. Let's talk about the game the way it is not the way it might be in a few years. Magic levels are not going up anywhere near as fast as A/D no matter what the motivation.

 

TirunCollimdus

[RogerDeLluria]

Overall i think the idea is nice, however that linked to the capps is introducing so drastic changes that (as many others have pointed out) ALL players should have the opportunity to redistribute PPs (i think including perks)

 

Obviously, those with over 48 p/c worked hard for their PPs, so they deserve an advantage, yes?

You, on the other hand, have the advantage that it is easier for you to get PPs. And people can still use the stones to reconfigure their build.

 

The restoration formula is also not set in stone. Like someone else proposed, it could be magic*1.5+rationality*5

 

I'm sorry but the argument of those above 48 p/c worked hard for their PP's is a fallacy.

As an example I'll use myself (OA 117, and can say worked quite hard to get them) and a guildie of mine (about 4-5 OA lvls less). However we have different builds (I have 52 coord while he has 72), so after the caps I'll get only 4 pp's back while he will get 24 pp's.

 

Don't you think that you are giving advantage to those that concentrated their pp's in one atribute and not to those that worked hard for their PP's (despite that both may have worked as hard)

 

Regarding the poll i think it is still needed, I think that many players may like the idea but will not support it if that forces them to reset or spend a fortune on removal stones.

I personally like the idea but will vote NO if i don't get some opportunity to redistribute my PP's.

 

RogerDeLluria

[Ryuu]

Yes, if you have CoL+MoL and 48 phys (and because you already maxed will for rationality) that will be 420hp.

 

You must be fighting rats if you restore when you are less than 30 points away from being dead.

Well, if you know how much damage your opponent does, then yes, you may restore from less than that from time to time, but that was an extreme example (48will/48reason/100magic). I suppose only pure mages are supposed to get close to a full restore then, because battle mages may need some instinct.

 

Edit: and if there is a way to remove magic immunity then people may want to restore sooner, to avoid being finished off by hit+harm

Edited December 16, 2007 by Ryuu

[TirunCollimdus]

Yes, if you have CoL+MoL and 48 phys (and because you already maxed will for rationality) that will be 420hp.

 

You must be fighting rats if you restore when you are less than 30 points away from being dead.

 

Actually that is a good place to restore when you are fighting fluffy rabbits. They don't hit that hard and if you restoring at much higher than 30 you are restoring too soon. Could be my toughness means I restore later than most but I really don't think so. I am always restoring in my 30s for fluffy rabbits. Using a crown of life and medallion of life I would only have 330 health anyway though. It would take someone with a LOT more pick points than me to run into this problem. 48 phys, 48 reasoning, and 48 will is a long way up there. Especially considering none of those gives to reaction for dodging anything. Could neg up for the coord though.

 

Someone this high would probably not be fighting fluffies IMO so the example still does not work. 390 I think would heal anyone to max who has enough pick points to get the maximum restoration. They would be fighting stuff so tough they would have to restore way before 30 health arrived. Drop fighting fluffies might be a reason to go that route for a person that high but I don't know since I haven't asked anyone who could do it. The forumla is good enough for a max restore for anyone fighting something level appropriate or PKing. I think drop fighting is not covered but harvesting isn't either unless you harvest in armor. Any way you look at it the formula is workable even if it sucks for a lot of players as I pointed out in my posts.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Entropy]

Well, if you know how much damage your opponent does, then yes, you will restore from less than that from time to time, but that was an extreme example (48will/48reason/100magic). I suppose only pure mages are supposed to get close to a full restore then, because battle mages may need some instinct.

 

The idea is that only the mages should be able to fully restore, yes.

 

Overall i think the idea is nice, however that linked to the capps is introducing so drastic changes that (as many others have pointed out) ALL players should have the opportunity to redistribute PPs (i think including perks)

 

You can use the stones, you know? I heard that they are pretty cheap nowdays, because of the coming cap.

Besides, this problem is going to hurt everyone, not only you. It's the price of progress.

[conavar]

while we are having the convo about mage class, just throw in an idea about magic immunity.

 

have it based on the attackers magic level - the immuninty users magic level..

 

eg:

 

myself at magic level 46 cast magic immuntity , a mage of level 80 casts harm at me.. his harm spell hits me for 80(his level) - 46(my level) = 34 . so even with magic immuntity i am still taking damage from the harm spell as though it was cast by a mage of level 34 not 80.... still worth casting but not 100% immune due to his spells being tougher than mine. and magic immunitiy would act as normal (100%) for any spell cast at me by a mage level of 46 or less .

 

just an idea

[Entropy]

That's too complicated, and like I said, I want to have a special mage class. Right now, many fighters already have a high magic level, so an attribute that fighters don't use needs to be required as a spell amplifier.

[TessAnna]

I agree with Shujral above. I hate the idea, but will not moan and groan about it..... well, not in forums or public anyway Might have a cuss and discuss in guild or pm.

 

To be honest, unless the game gets to where I am bored, I really dont care, I am very happy to be able to play a game of this quality for free.

[conavar]

That's too complicated, and like I said, I want to have a special mage class. Right now, many fighters already have a high magic level, so an attribute that fighters don't use needs to be required as a spell amplifier.

 

fair point.. could magic nexus be used ? its not capped in anyway is it so in theory someone could have 30 magic nexus ?

[hades]

music to my hears :

 

1)

The idea is that only the mages should be able to fully restore, yes.

 

2)

I want to have a special mage class

 

3)

so an attribute that fighters don't use needs to be required as a spell amplifier

 

[TirunCollimdus]

That's too complicated, and like I said, I want to have a special mage class. Right now, many fighters already have a high magic level, so an attribute that fighters don't use needs to be required as a spell amplifier.

 

fair point.. could magic nexus be used ? its not capped in anyway is it so in theory someone could have 30 magic nexus ?

 

Capped or not I know it goes up to at least 13. I can't remember where that number comes from but that is moot. Icy mentioned using magic nexus in the discussion on the restoration spell and Conavar's post made a light bulb come on for me.

 

If magic nexus + rationality were used to create your specialty mage class then you could also use magic nexus + charm to specialize the summoning skill. Then you have fighters, mages, and summoners. Instead of just fighters and mages. When you add arrows and bows that gives you too types of fighters and two types of spell casters. Fighters, archers, mages, and summoners and thrown into that mix is engineers who have lots of neat battle handy items to make sure things never get dull. How does that sound?

 

TirunCollimdus <-------- Very excited.

[FatboyJaxx]

I have a question about this new system.

 

Will there be something done about the fact that these "pure" mages will have rediculously small EMU's? I mean maxing out will and reasoning uses 96pp's and I'd imagine that most mages will want to be mixers as well so then you have to count nexus... That's a lot of OA...

 

EDIT : Especially without using a/d to level your OA..

Edited December 17, 2007 by FatboyJaxx

[Wizzy]

I have a question about this new system.

 

Will there be something done about the fact that these "pure" mages will have rediculously small EMU's? I mean maxing out will and reasoning uses 96pp's and I'd imagine that most mages will want to be mixers as well so then you have to count nexus... That's a lot of OA...

 

EDIT : Especially without using a/d to level your OA..

Pure mages will have to put many PP to Will Coordination and Instint...............Will for Hitpoints mana and rationality, Coordination for....well because coordination pawns...Instint for the "you cant hit me" and Perception,charm

[RogerDeLluria]

You can use the stones, you know? I heard that they are pretty cheap nowdays, because of the coming cap.

Haven't heard of perk removal stones yet, but will check market channel. Checking also to remove a few nexus now that they are cheap.

 

Besides, this problem is going to hurt everyone, not only you. It's the price of progress.

Of course it hurts everyone. My point is that it hurts some more than others. I just think that the option to redistribute PP's will be more fair to ALL players. And it's not only me who thinks that, many others have stated the same.

[FatboyJaxx]

Pure mages will have to put many PP to Will Coordination and Instint...............Will for Hitpoints mana and rationality, Coordination for....well because coordination pawns...Instint for the "you cant hit me" and Perception,charm

 

 

The attribute cap is pointless then, if you need to put pp's on every attribute to get anywhere then people are going to have 20-30pp's on each attribute, maybe some slightly stronger specialisations but not much.

[halsort]

So all people are not going to get pps back when this happens so they can be redistributed.

 

So we have 2 identical players who have played and levelled together and are the same level, and have both worked equally as hard for the levels they are at.

 

Player A has 48 physique and 48 coordination

 

Player B has 16 physique and 80 coordination

 

Player A gets no pickpoints returned and player B gets 32 pickpoints back. How the hell can that be fair on Player A when both would need to be putting pps into perception.

 

Both are fighters and are fairly high level.Both pk and therefore both will need perception.

 

Just because one has distributed his pps differently from the other shouldnt mean he benefits over the other one.

 

I realise that this is an extreme senario but I think there will be builds out there that would fit the senario to a lesser extent.

[Wizzy]

Pure mages will have to put many PP to Will Coordination and Instint...............Will for Hitpoints mana and rationality, Coordination for....well because coordination pawns...Instint for the "you cant hit me" and Perception,charm

 

 

The attribute cap is pointless then, if you need to put pp's on every attribute to get anywhere then people are going to have 20-30pp's on each attribute, maybe some slightly stronger specialisations but not much.

 

Not pointless at all. I will want to hit hard and fast, so 48P 48C maybe someday 48R the rest on vitality..Different build then a mage that doesnt want to hit you, just survive long and deal damage with magic.

 

So all people are not going to get pps back when this happens so they can be redistributed.

 

So we have 2 identical players who have played and levelled together and are the same level, and have both worked equally as hard for the levels they are at.

 

Player A has 48 physique and 48 coordination

 

Player B has 16 physique and 80 coordination

 

Player A gets no pickpoints returned and player B gets 32 pickpoints back. How the hell can that be fair on Player A when both would need to be putting pps into perception.

 

Both are fighters and are fairly high level.Both pk and therefore both will need perception.

 

Just because one has distributed his pps differently from the other shouldnt mean he benefits over the other one.

 

I realise that this is an extreme senario but I think there will be builds out there that would fit the senario to a lesser extent.

Player with 16P and 80 cooridination if he is a fighter will end up maxing out 48C and rounding up P...With the overalls mentioned, if they are exactly = it will work out the same( No fighter has 16P if they do, they are not a very good fighter)