Mage class, Fighter class

[nicky]

This is a great change because it's new, different, and breaks the fact that the only way to pk is to pump p/c extremely high.

 

All of my skills are non-a/d skills, and my p/c isn't that high, so this doesn't effect me much at all. But i am really interested in seeing how this changes the markets for mass-qty items like HE's and SRS.

Edited December 16, 2007 by nicky

[macca]

another issue if mage class comes in will be the cool down .....

just wondering would this be solved?

 

edit: at least for any new offensive spells that come out?

as if it costs say 20 mana to do damage alot of ppl wont be attracted to it because of cost

Edited December 16, 2007 by macca

[Usl]

Having spent 4 of the 8 PPs I had set aside just 10 minutes before this thread was opened, I'm probably close to the worst-case PP strategist that you can find ingame, still...

 

First, I'm in favour of the general idea. There have been numerous threads about changes to the magic system, and the simple lack of "professional" mages in-game is an indication that this skill is not sufficiently rewarding as it is now. By linking more pervasively the effect of spells to magic level, reasoning or rationality will provide further incentive. Also, a top-mage who has spent 80 PPs on magic-related attributes should be dangerous to have as opponent in PK -- not invincible, but dangerous on a par with a 32/48 p/c fighter with a/d levels similar to the magic level of the mage. In the same way, having such a character as an ally in a fight should actually provide a substantial help.

 

Second, beyond changing the formulas for the effect of currently existing spells, I would really like to see more spells, both combat-related or not. There have been many suggestions, some easy to implement, some more difficult, but magic is the only skill that I haven't seen changed in any respect since I'm in game (a mere year, actually).

For example: a spell for creating a whirlwind protecting from arrows (by adding a random factor to their course, using air and magic essence); a spell for revealing hidden landmines (earth and magic essence); a high-level spell for "charming" another player summons and assuming control of them (effect based on your charm and magic level, and opponents' charm and summon level, using life and death essence or maybe even an ELE); a spell for paralizing/freezing/slowing down another player for three turns, or maybe just affecting the opponent's pet... possibilities are endless, and the combinations of sigils almost inexhaustible...

 

Third, coming to the details of the restoration formula, I would propose adding also a constant term, e.g. 20hp+alpha*rationality+beta*magic -- given the fact that a simple heal spell heals 10 hp, and restoration should be substantially more effective. Also, I would drop the fail-safe restoration, and go with an always-decreasing chance of failure as for anything else. This again could give a (slim) chance to a weaker opponent; at times David is just lucky against Goliath.

 

Fourth and last, personally these changes would suck -- with magic 35 and rationality 10, I could end up restoring some 40hp per restore, which would be pretty terrible. But, I still think these would improve the game as a whole, and I attach more importance to playing in a good game, than to having an uber-character in a lousy game (which the current EL is not anyway, but you get the idea).

Also, if these changes will be implemented in mid- to late-spring, there is plenty of time for us to start collecting PPs and allocating them wisely. Collecting PPs will be pretty hard for top-players, but they will get their over-quota PPs back to reallocate as they wish. Mid-level players have 4 months to collect more PPs, to allocate knowing what is coming. Low-level and new players will not be affected much by the changes anyway, for them it will be just "the way the game is". Personally, I found cooldown just a part of the game, only much later I discovered that it had been a controversial issue at a certain point...

 

Having said this, at this point I would vote yes to the poll, when it comes -- still willing to read other people's opinions on the subject though.

[TirunCollimdus]

The cap making levels more important seems to have more support by a very large margin than the idea of making magic attribute dependent. Having magic more level dependent with some enhancement provided by attributes is the only change I can see that makes any sense at all considering the purpose of the attribute cap.

 

Healing (mag lvl * 3 + rationality * 5) is more in line with the attribute cap. Making it (mag lvl * 3 + reasoning * 2.5) would also work without making will too powerful and give another reason to take reasoning. Full restoration even when maxed out with CoL, MoL and 48 phys and will is needed. 420 health as a max means that you would need to get to magic level 80 and a 24 rationality for full restore if you restore at 60 health. That is with 48 phys and 44 will plus level 80 magic.

 

Using level 80 magic and 48 rationality you are only healing 480 health. The dragon blade pushes you over 420. You should have a full restore from 1 health before you max out your magic potential. My equation barely makes this happen. You need a 36 rationality to get a full restore with my equation if you are magic level 80. Giving someone a full restore for achieving that is fair.

 

Someone with level 30 magic and a 20 rationality has the ability to heal 190 health. That covers a crown of life and 40 more health. If they are level 30 I guarantee this won't be a full restore from 1 health. It might restore full health for someone who is restoring at a level that is safe when fighting tough monsters. If they don't use rationality or reasoning they will still stay alive without spending all in game time making or paying for HEs.

 

My point, is that to avoid making the attribute cap pointless, we need to make levels actually be worth something. You can survive with your magic if you get * 3 for you healing and excel if you use reasoning or rationality. If you don't want to allow levels to count for more than attributes in the magic system then you should just leave it the way it is. We are trying to reward players for playing not for taking negative perks and not for buying nexus right? We are trying to make a system where pick points are just strategy not the whole sum of the equation right? Leave it the way it is or make levels worth something.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Entropy]

One should also consider that levels are easier to get than pick points.

For example, someone can have their total levels at 500, but it is very unlikely they will ever have more than 200 attributes in total.

 

So it is normal that the attributes should give a decent bonus too.

[peino]

I like the proposal. I look forward to it.

 

I didn't vote about the attribute cap because I don't care about it -- with cap or without cap, whatever happens is fine with me.

 

But I've been hankering for more magic, more useful magic, and more uses for attributes, so this idea makes me very happy. I train monsters day and night and use magic A LOT because I often go for critters that are dangerously tough for me. I'm only magic 27 (iirc), and I use restore, remote heal, shield, poison, harm, and life drain, depending on what I'm fighting. It makes training fun. If mage craft will have a serious effect on PK/PvP, who knows, I might take that up as well.

 

I also dream at night of hunting with bow and arrows, if they'll be usable outside PK.

 

Whatever -- as long as I can build Peino as a magic-using, monster-killing adventurer/free trader who practices alchemy for religious reasons, prefers light weapons like staffs and arrows, and buys most of his potions, armors, medallions, and high fashion accessories, rather than making his own, I'll be happy. Make mead drinkable, and my character build will be complete.

[popeye]

All of these formulas seem a bit complicated to me. I think of myself as an "allarounder". My a/d's 39/39. Mag:22 Harv:71, alc:35, man:18, cra:16. I'm working towards raising my magic level and a/d. With the proposed mage class, I don't see where folks will benefit much from trying to level magic. It's already slow levelling magic, I can only see it getting slower.

 

P.S. I think the mage class is a good idea, just that it needs more input from folks using magic fairly regular.

I've always wanted to be a mage/wizard in game.

Edited December 16, 2007 by popeye

[Rehdon]

I've been hoping for improvements in the magic system for a long time, so this change will be a very welcomed one on my part: this way we could have Mage characters and also (possibly) a combination of Mage/Warriors who choose the best strategy on the base of the circumstances (training, pk, invasions).

 

I also subscribe to Usl's idea that more spells will be needed: it sort of defeats the point to have a new, sophisticated magic system allowing Mages to cast the current limited number of spells.

 

Take your time to think about this Ent, the game will benefit a lot from it.

 

Rehdon

[Vanyel]

I like the idea of making rationality influence spells effect very much. I think we finally are getting into direction of making all attributes affect the gameplay.

In Entropy's post I found only one thing that makes me worry. That is too significant influence of rationality. Getting one's skill levels high is rather difficult when it comes to magic. Though, I would think that a magic level should be superior over any attributes. In the given example a person with magic level 80 and rationality 4 heals oneself for 80 points, while a person with a magic level 40 and rationality 8 heals oneself for 100 points. Getting ones rationality to 8 is much easier than one's magic level to 80.

I'm afraid that such situation may lead to what we have in fighting right now. I mean, a physique and a coordination are far more important than an attack or a defence skills. It's a bit pathological. With incoming caps it will change.

Either than aforementioned issue I'm all for this idea. I just hope that it will be tweaked before implementation.

[Schmurk]

I like the idea a lot!

However, I'm not sure that's a good idea to link the magic to rationality or reasoning because as asgnny stated, top fighters would certainly want to put a lot of pick points in reasoning to increase their dexterity. And in this case, they will be better mages as ppl who want to concentrate only on magic.

So, I think that if you want to bind it to something, bind it to will because this attribute seems less important for fighters.

Will is very important to fighters as it adds health and mana, also reaction is much better for training than dexterity (and with high accuracy swords, perhaps even PK).

With the actual system, it is true. But with the new system, I'm not sure that PKers will spend PPs in will. They'll maybe prefer put them in physique & vitality to increase their health and mana, and in coordination & reasoning to increase their dexterity. But it's just my opinion and as I'm not a PKer nor a top fighter, maybe I'm wrong...

 

Anyway, whatever attribute you'll choose to tie magic to, top players who can afford to buy a lot of PP will do what they want and can decide to max their magic so it'll not change anything. So after reflexion, I don't think we should consider them in the final decision. So I agree that rationality seems to be a good compromise between will and reasoning...

 

But I want to aboard another point. If I remember, Ent, some time ago you spoke about giving more power to nexus and the more PP you'll have in a nexus, the more "power" you'll have in the corresponding skill. And some people also spoke about using magic nexus for the magic skill because if you introduce new powerful spells, maybe it could be nice that they could be cast only by people who put enough PP in their magic nexus. Any news about this?

[Entropy]

That is too significant influence of rationality. Getting one's skill levels high is rather difficult when it comes to magic. Though, I would think that a magic level should be superior over any attributes. In the given example a person with magic level 80 and rationality 4 heals oneself for 80 points, while a person with a magic level 40 and rationality 8 heals oneself for 100 points. Getting ones rationality to 8 is much easier than one's magic level to 80.

 

That's only for one spell. The rest of the formulas clearly favour the magic levle over the attributes.

[DogBreath]

I'd give this thread two thumbs up, but it's so good I decided to grow an extra one.

 

 

 

Yay for flavors, yay for having to actually use your brain to build a character, yay for making magic a strong tool!!!

 

I'm excited already and seems others are as well, yay for excitment in a game

 

Hrm, maybe that's a forth thumb

 

Edit: the other part that people some times seem to forget here is the reset option. I know it might seem like the suxor to have to actually 'rebuild' your character, but it's not all that bad if you've worked your other skills up already. And if you haven't, shame on ya

Edited December 16, 2007 by DogBreath

[conavar]

 

Edit: the other part that people some times seem to forget here is the reset option. I know it might seem like the suxor to have to actually 'rebuild' your character, but it's not all that bad if you've worked your other skills up already. And if you haven't, shame on ya

 

 

 

That is true and at least with getting all these ideas out in the open at once. a/d cap, differant magic, archery, if people do decide to reset they have a fare idea what is coming up and can plan accordingly and not have to reset in another 4 months time for something else.

[Blodoks]

One should also consider that levels are easier to get than pick points.

For example, someone can have their total levels at 500, but it is very unlikely they will ever have more than 200 attributes in total.

 

So it is normal that the attributes should give a decent bonus too.

 

Ok, but I think a bonus will be useful.

I have a total of 853 levels, oa 139, never resetted, godless from oa 30 (more or less, I don't remember).

I have all nexus except human 10.

 

Is it possible a bonus based on the levels average?

For example... 853 (tot levels):11 (skills number) = 77,5 (average)

1 pp bonus each 10 average points or what do you prefer...

 

0 pp bonus under a 500 levels, etc.. I mean if it's possible to work about a bonus based on the average..

[Zamirah]

One should also consider that levels are easier to get than pick points.

For example, someone can have their total levels at 500, but it is very unlikely they will ever have more than 200 attributes in total.

 

So it is normal that the attributes should give a decent bonus too.

 

Ok, but I think a bonus will be useful.

I have a total of 853 levels, oa 139, never resetted, godless from oa 30 (more or less, I don't remember).

I have all nexus except human 10.

 

Is it possible a bonus based on the levels average?

For example... 853 (tot levels):11 (skills number) = 77,5 (average)

1 pp bonus each 10 average points or what do you prefer...

 

0 pp bonus under a 500 levels, etc.. I mean if it's possible to work about a bonus based on the average..

It could give some "easy" pp to some people.

I have 8 skills over level 60 - hard to get pp in them.

But :

summon 16

engineering 36

tailoring 15

So if I only work on this skill will I easy get some pp - faster to level.

 

A fighter who only have levels in a/d and harvest could get many pp from other skills.

Manu - leathergloves

Potion - potion of mana

Summon - summon rats

Engeneering - ashes

Alc - mixing HE

Easy to get level 10 or 20, some "cheap" pp.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Zamirah

[masterpiter]

That is too significant influence of rationality. Getting one's skill levels high is rather difficult when it comes to magic. Though, I would think that a magic level should be superior over any attributes. In the given example a person with magic level 80 and rationality 4 heals oneself for 80 points, while a person with a magic level 40 and rationality 8 heals oneself for 100 points. Getting ones rationality to 8 is much easier than one's magic level to 80.

 

That's only for one spell. The rest of the formulas clearly favour the magic levle over the attributes.

I like the idea of mage profession.

Llike asgnny, connavar, kheres and many more i think magic lvl should be also important, not only rationality especially when it comes to the restoration spell.

 

The restoration formula is also not set in stone. Like someone else proposed, it could be magic*1.5+rationality*5

That formula seems much better.

Fighter(yeti trainer) with magic 80 and rationality 16 gets 120+80 so 200 points restored, which is acceptable, u need to heal a lot of points when ur on yetis coz CoL is a must-have there( yetis deal u 50+dmg even at big a/d/p/c

 

Some less experienced fighter who is on ogre and have only magic lvl 30+rationality 4 restores only 45+20= 65 points, which is ok for him if he doesnt use CoL, so less ppl with CoL on ogres/other low lvl monsters

 

Some ppl r mag lvl 35 on fluff but that is the effect of CoL on low lvl mobs and using restore spell very rare due to that.

 

Cyclops trainer with 16 will and 50 magic lvl can restore 75+50= 125 health points- pretty nice, of coz, CoL is not needed so u dont need to restore 200 or more health.

 

Of coz u can add more will/reasoning so u restore more points and CoL works better for u even if u r low magic lvl, but thats a personal choice, a trade off, like always

 

Anyways, i like the idea, especially when formula makes able to train/kill yetis but also gives some negatives to ppl with low magic lvl and rationality who like to train in CoL on low lvl monsters.

It also makes ur magic lvl more worthy of training which is always a positive thing

 

mp

Edited December 16, 2007 by masterpiter

[Blodoks]

@zamirah

 

ok, but you/they (fighters) will need nexus too.

I thought my idea was balanced, but I'm human

 

Btw, Entropy can to make the best if he thinks it can be a good idea

 

At the end we talk of very few pp, just a reward for a good job

[Entropy]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

[Zamirah]

@zamirah

 

ok, but you/they (fighters) will need nexus too.

I thought my idea was balanced, but I'm human

 

Btw, Entropy can to make the best if he thinks it can be a good idea

 

At the end we talk of very few pp, just a reward for a good job

No nexus are needed for what I posted, only crafting need nexus to start. (1 arti to make thread or silver rings)

But maybe an idea if you get higher level - like 40 or 50.

[DogBreath]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

Sounds good to me, I wouldn't mind giving it a go on the test server first, of course

[Vanyel]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

 

It's not like they cannot be tweaked if needed, right? I would say let's try it and if something needs changes it may be done with time. We will never know unless we try.

[Ryuu]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

 

It's not like they cannot be tweaked if needed, right? I would say let's try it and if something needs changes it may be done with time. We will never know unless we try.

Yes, that's true. but maybe magic*1+rationality*10 would be nice for restoration spell, because if it's only rationality*5 it will be very hard to max out restore for your HP if you go for a build with a lot of will.

[Fedora]

I like the magic*1.5+rationality*5 and, if i got it right, this will lead fighters into choosing will more than vitality and mages into preferring reasoning/will.

 

After the caps will be installed, many high level people will have extra pick points, so this is a very good time to talk about some changes.

 

As a summoner i would like too see a similar discussion on a Summoner class that can be (since i understand high lvl mages will be usable in combat) a third viable option for pking, maybe based on the vitality cross attribute, now not so useful for mages/fighters/archers...

[halsort]

"Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?"

 

 

 

Does this mean that the discussion on your idea is now over and approved without the "few days to discuss it" and a poll?- Less than 24 hours of the entry going on to the forum!

 

If I am not mistaken the end result of this idea and the cap will be that the high level players will get pps back to be able to cover for perception etc and the new players will be able to decide what to do with their newly gained pps as they level.

This therefore leaves the rest of the players who are say level 80 - 100 (or even a wider range) to have to get to say level 100-120 to get 20 pps just to put into perception or reset.Thats not even allowing for pps that are going to be needed for the other attributes.

 

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the changes I can only see an awful lot of resets.

 

Might be interesting to see how many active players in just the lvl 80 - 100 range this will affect.

 

With such a drastic change in the character building that will now be required in the game maybe a reset of all pps to be redistributed again should be made.

I am all in favour of the changes to use the other previously useless attributes (as it can only benefit the game) but all characters will need a redistribution of their pps to function properly and effectively.

[asgnny]

Well, since most of the people are in favour for this idea, there is no point in having a vote on it.

I guess the restoration will be magic*1.5+rationality*5, which means magic is even more important, but rationality is a good attribute to have.

The formula for the other spells is satisfactory I hope?

 

It's not like they cannot be tweaked if needed, right? I would say let's try it and if something needs changes it may be done with time. We will never know unless we try.

Yes, that's true. but maybe magic*1+rationality*10 would be nice for restoration spell, because if it's only rationality*5 it will be very hard to max out restore for your HP if you go for a build with a lot of will.

 

Yes -- exactly why it shouldn't be rationality*10. If players will all of a sudden have 400+ material points to restore, it should take more pickpoints to restore all of it. Also, high will builds will have tons of mana. If someone wants to have high material points as well as high mana, it is reasonable to restore less health per cast with lower rationality.

 

I do like to see the magic skill level actually counting towards restoration. Something like 2x magic (plus a smaller rationality bonus) would look great for me...though I am of course biased in that respect.

With that said, will provides material points, ethereal points, and rationality, which makes it the perfect mage attribute. Maybe this would prove to be too strong, if maxed out? (edit: too strong with a 5x rationality multiplier in the restoration formula, I mean)

Edited December 16, 2007 by asgnny