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Entropy

Mage class, Fighter class

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Well, it looks like the cap petition is going to pass: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39234 (the poll will be closed Monday, and it needs 66% Yes votes to pass).

 

After the caps will be installed, many high level people will have extra pick points, so this is a very good time to talk about some changes.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, there will be arrows and missile weapons coming soon (work is in progress, and I think we'll have something by Spring of 2008).

The missiles will be dependent on perception and reaction, while strength and dexterity will play some minor role. So it will be a very good idea to save at least 10 PPs for reaction if you don't plan to use arrows, and 20+ PPs for reaction and perception if you do plan to use them. The missile thing is non negociable, that's how it will be done, no votes for it.

 

And while we are at it, let's talk about another not very used attribute, the reasoning.

It can be used for a mage class. When I say class, I don't mean something strictly enforced like on other games, but something more flexible. That is, the more reasoning you have, the better you are at magic. For example, the restoration spell can give 10 hp for each point of rationality, starting at your magic level/2.

So if your magic level is 80, and your reasoning is 15, you'd get 40+15*10=190 points.

 

Other spells such as poison, harm, remote heal, and some new spells that will be added can also use reasoning as a very important modifier. For example, the harm damage can be multiplied by the following formula: damage=damage+damage*(rationality/100)

 

Another spell could be to remove the magic immunity, which would also be dependent on your rationality and magic level (as well as the rationality and magic level of the target).

 

In effect, this would allow more flexibility during the battle, and people would have to chose what kind of strategy they want to use. Right now, the magic by itself is useless, and all the high level players are sort of "battle mages". With the new system, you'd either be a hard core fighter, sort of a barbarian or knight, or a warlock. Some hybrid characters could still exist, of course.

 

It's worth mentioning that pretty much any other RPG/MMORPG game has this kind of restrictions, and for good reasons.

 

So discuss, and bring arguments. Stuff like: "lol this would sux!11!" will not be allowed in this thread, and people posting stuff along that line will be banned from the forum.

In a few days, after we give it enough consideration, we'll have a poll about it.

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I think its a great idea. When the cap comes in, fighters will obviously max p/c out. Then they have a choice of w/v/i. With this new "mage class" idea, rationality will also be included in that list, thus making all attributes useble for different strategys.

 

~kGn

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I am all for this idea. It seems like a very good way to deal with the attribute caps. One question though...what happens if you somehow get all attributes to 48 and get all the perks that you want to get? I know it's very unlikely and perhaps far in the future, but is there a plan? Still, I think this is a very good idea.

 

Lumino

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I am all for this idea. It seems like a very good way to deal with the attribute caps. One question though...what happens if you somehow get all attributes to 48 and get all the perks that you want to get? I know it's very unlikely and perhaps far in the future, but is there a plan? Still, I think this is a very good idea.

 

Lumino

 

Like radu said in the last thread... come to him when you max out everything, and he'll raise cap for you :P

 

~kGn

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I like the idea to be honest, i'd love to see people who work harder at their magic level receive an upper advantage towards the others. I think it would go well hand in hand with a lot of the ubber people who have over 100 coord and are about to have 48 :pirate: so we can have a better mix in the game,

 

All in all thumbs up :P

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It's interesting. I have been annoyed at 40s people in PK surviving because their guild helped them level to 21 magic.

 

Magic has appeared to be attached to a/d in a sense that, it's pointless unless you actually have a good a/d.

 

 

Anyway, I think it's a cool idea.

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Will all of these changes be made in PK server too?

 

There's already a thread in the PK forum, and most of the people agree to at least have restoration tied to reasoning, so yes.

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That is, the more reasoning you have, the better you are at magic. For example, the restoration spell can give 10 hp for each point of rationality, starting at your magic level/2.

So if your magic level is 80, and your reasoning is 15, you'd get 40+15*10=190 points.

A little clarification please: 10 hp for every point in reasoning or rationality?

 

Eithere way: I think creating a magician "class" is an interesting idea, which will make even more character builds possible, and PK/raids should be more interesting than they're now. For fighters it's a great idea for sure.

 

On the other hand, new formula for restoration spell will become a true disaster for mixers, as it'll make mixing on toadies much harder. I've just checked - with my current stats I'll be able to heal 65/105 points of damage (depending on which stat that number depends on). Well, it might be what you intend to do, but I can't say I'm going to like this change too much :P

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Like radu said in the last thread... come to him when you max out everything, and he'll raise cap for you :P

 

Ahh, I see. Cool.

 

I agree with what others have said, I love the idea of a more advanced "class" system, i.e. you must choose what you want to be, but still not rigidly enforced as in you can never change and you can't be in between. This system seems perfect. Technically the skills should provide a class/profession system, but a lot of people become all-arounders because it's pretty easy to do. This will make it more difficulty to be/do everything, and it will also make combat far more interesting :pirate:

 

Lum

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My first thoughts on this are of the players with p/c under the 48 cap, with no free pickpoints to spend on reasoning. Someone at a reasonable 40 magic level, who might train on cyclops or fluffy would have (40/2) 20 + (4*10) 40 = 60 health per restore. This would essentially suck for those players. On the higher end, top fighters who might go to 48 reasoning (to max out dexterity) would have 480 + 40 (assuming 80 magic) = 520 health recovered per restore. this seems excessive. Magic would not be worth training... there's no difference between restoring 485 (at magic level 21) and 520 (at magic level 80).

 

I plan to read more opinions on this thread before coming up with a firm opinion, though.

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Well there has to be a change to magic in game, and this idea is ok... only problem i have with it is that you only restore 1 extra health for every 2 magic levels you have... that should be increased IMO, mag is a hard and expensive skill to train, and should give you more benefit... if anything, make it 1 health for every magic level. Other than that, i like the idea to be able to make offensive combat spells more effective through pickpoint usage, and it would be good to not have magic immunity so completely overpower any other spells.

 

edit: typo

Edited by St_Arcane

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That is, the more reasoning you have, the better you are at magic. For example, the restoration spell can give 10 hp for each point of rationality, starting at your magic level/2.

So if your magic level is 80, and your reasoning is 15, you'd get 40+15*10=190 points.

A little clarification please: 10 hp for every point in reasoning or rationality?

Oops, I meant rationality, sorry. Although reasoning by itself can be a good idea too, but we'll have to see.

 

On the other hand, new formula for restoration spell will become a true disaster for mixers, as it'll make mixing on toadies much harder. I've just checked - with my current stats I'll be able to heal 65/105 points of damage (depending on which stat that number depends on). Well, it might be what you intend to do, but I can't say I'm going to like this change too much :P

 

Doesn't that mean that mixers will get more business from fighters?

 

My first thoughts on this are of the players with p/c under the 48 cap, with no free pickpoints to spend on reasoning. Someone at a reasonable 40 magic level, who might train on cyclops or fluffy would have (40/2) 20 + (4*10) 40 = 60 health per restore. This would essentially suck for those players. On the higher end, top fighters who might go to 48 reasoning (to max out dexterity) would have 480 + 40 (assuming 80 magic) = 520 health recovered per restore. this seems excessive. Magic would not be worth training... there's no difference between restoring 485 (at magic level 21) and 520 (at magic level 80).

 

I plan to read more opinions on this thread before coming up with a firm opinion, though.

 

How is it different than how things are now?

If you have 21 magic, you restore full health. In this new system, the level will actually make a difference. Besides, this is not just for restoration, all the other spells will be affected by it, so the higher the magic level, the more powerful their spells will be.

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it looks good for me . i just think that we should get a chance to give all our pp's from oa+the ones bouth for hydro to attributes we want , perks should be reseted imo ( not astro ) coz i think most of ppl wouldnt take some of perks if they would know about cap earlyer . archers and mages may work nice in team pk too , and ppl with high oa lvls will be able to try other professions coz they can put pp's in I/R attr . idea is cool , hope it will work good too . wish luck to every EL manic's , cya in game

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Someone at a reasonable 40 magic level, who might train on cyclops or fluffy would have (40/2) 20 + (4*10) 40 = 60 health per restore.

Not sure if I completely agree with that. Instead of having their mana based from pp in Vitality, put it into Will instead (16 total) and you have them restoring at 120 HP per, which would probably be max unless they are training with COL. It also seems like this makes Will more appealing than Vitality now.

Edited by LevinMage

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With the exception of the cap (which it would seem will be raised slowly over time), none of the things discussed here would seem to be limitations to me. Rather it sounds like we're in for an increased number of options. I'm really looking forward to seeing what else comes out of this.

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I think the proposed magic system is too drastic, especially what concerns restoration. If monsters and weapons in PK are left as-is, all fighters will need rationality to restore (with my current magic 61 (iirc) and rationality 4 I would restore for ~70 hp, nearly impossible to train/PK). So many people would have to redo builds and so on.

 

I am not claiming that this would ruin the game but as you, Entropy, said it precisely:

Right now, the magic by itself is useless, and all the high level players are sort of "battle mages". With the new system, you'd either be a hard core fighter, sort of a barbarian or knight, or a warlock.

In short, this would change the game's fighting system dramatically.

 

Such changes surely won't work at first and would need to be adjusted a few times. True, EL is beta we are warned everything can change, but people who have put significant amount of work into their character might be upset if something doesnt work for them.

 

 

I would suggest implementing this system on a PK server first, and if it works as expected, it could be used on main too.

 

Edit: I would do it magic*2 not magic/2, because magic/2 doesnt make it level dependent much, level 80 (which is pretty high and hard to reach) would differ from starter level (21) only by 30 healed hp. 30 hp is nothing in this epoch of CoLs and MoLs

Edited by vytukas

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Well, there is a huge difference between healing 60 hp and 200+ I'd say. What I think now (first thoughts, might be wrong and not thought (sp?) over too much, just tossing thoughts around).

 

For PKers (and perhaps invasions participants): great idea, will make combat much more interesting and strategic.

For monster trainers: let's face that, the only spell they really use and need is restoration (maybe some shields and magic immunities here and there, but I don't think it's too common). As asgnny said it'll make training much more expensive and risky with no positives I can see (correct me if I'm wrong please).

For mixers: mixing on toads will become harder and more risky, on the other hand they may get more orders for hes, sr and perhaps other essences as well (as some spells may be used more commonly). I think this may help less experienced players, but for higher levelled it'll be a nuisance.

Edited by Lotheneil

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I like the idea a lot! :devlish:

However, I'm not sure that's a good idea to link the magic to rationality or reasoning because as asgnny stated, top fighters would certainly want to put a lot of pick points in reasoning to increase their dexterity. And in this case, they will be better mages as ppl who want to concentrate only on magic.

So, I think that if you want to bind it to something, bind it to will because this attribute seems less important for fighters.

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if its based on rationality then yes sounds a good idea , maybe decrease the amount given by rationality though and increase the amount given by Magic level. then it totally rewards players who have trained magic and not those who have negged out

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I like it! shake things up, make magic more useful and interesting. If nothing else, I think this will keep some of the players who maybe have been getting bored from leaving. Best case scenario, maybe everyone's favourite Mage will return! \o/

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An excellent idea, I'm very glad to have stuck with my vote "yes" to cap, and so should most of you! or else none of this would've been possible. (PP's wouldn't have been returned for those ultra-pumped p/c players)

 

My first thoughts on this are of the players with p/c under the 48 cap, with no free pickpoints to spend on reasoning. Someone at a reasonable 40 magic level, who might train on cyclops or fluffy would have (40/2) 20 + (4*10) 40 = 60 health per restore. This would essentially suck for those players. On the higher end, top fighters who might go to 48 reasoning (to max out dexterity) would have 480 + 40 (assuming 80 magic) = 520 health recovered per restore. this seems excessive. Magic would not be worth training... there's no difference between restoring 485 (at magic level 21) and 520 (at magic level 80).

 

I plan to read more opinions on this thread before coming up with a firm opinion, though.

 

How is it different than how things are now?

If you have 21 magic, you restore full health. In this new system, the level will actually make a difference. Besides, this is not just for restoration, all the other spells will be affected by it, so the higher the magic level, the more powerful their spells will be.

 

Asgnny's post makes a lot of sense, The role of reasoninng/rationality seems to play a larger role than wanted with restoration.

I think this formula should be changed slightly to be based a little more on magic level than its counter-part rationality.

something like:

health restoration = magic level * 1.5 + Rationality * 5 ?

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I think it could be good for pk, but how about training ?

If you can't restore full, do you maybe need to wait for cooldown on SRS.

Like we do with dragons now.

If you go away from the spawn to wait, can another take it, could be a lot posting in outlaws.

 

I guess we are not supposed to bring our own hèaler ? :devlish:

Maybe less cooldown ?

 

If we get pp back would it be nice to know how it will work, before people spend their pp, and later find out they spent them on wrong attributes.

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In general I like the idea of making things a bit more complex and making the "best" configuration much more complex that just "all PPs in cord".

 

I also agree with other that say the magic level should have more effect on the strength of spells. People who have worked hard on their magic level should get a significant bonus for that work.

 

One other thought I have had (which was stated above) is that if we're going to have a MAJOR change to the attribute/level/cap system, then some sort of a mini-reset (as it's been called) would be appropriate. The removal of all PPs and Perks (except skeptic) so that people can re-configure based on the needs of the NEW system. Some may just restore the same configuration. But others would want to make major changes based on the major changes to the system.

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Thankfully I think it has been said already. Players above p/c 48/48 will have pickpoints to spend on rationality (reasoning/will). myself, who has trained as a mage since newbdom will have no pps to spend on rationality. A common problem with change ofcourse, and I'm sure that those that get pick points back will have chosen more rationality given the new needs. Perhaps there could be a period in which every player may remove up to 8 spent pickpoints for respending, even those already capped.

 

But alas this isn't really to do with the idea itself, for me at mag/rat 63/11 it will mean 141 restored life which is nice enough. Other spells and factors all need to be kept a close eye on and tweaked at first, but I look forward to the changes and think it will likely make the game more interesting.

 

I think some people think of this as something to rein in p/c tanks, and that the people that think that will be disappointed because at the end of it, people who have worked for alot of pps will still have advantage over those with less pps (in attributes), and the changes will actually be affecting the average player.

 

Apologies if I cause any offence in my thoughts, and goodluck to everyone with the new system.

 

Erm edit = a spelling mistake and clarifying reference to subject.

Edited by kailomonkey

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