Democracy in EL

[Acelon]

After reading through other's posts, I agree with 2/3 vote. For minor changes, I feel this amount can be lowered to even 51% of people.

[Darwin2M]

I vote for NO DEMOCRACY in EL.

 

Please, if you do call for a vote, put this option in.

 

the player base has demonstrated that there are a significant percentage who are immature, incompetent or unable to make these decisions. No offense meant to the many people who are not in this category.

 

Entropy - you just get frustrated and mad when people make stupid, unreasoned or otherwise asinine statements.

 

We have a rule in the US that people can not vote until they reach a certain age - presumably there will be a certain level of maturity achieved by said age (there are many and glaring exceptions). If there is a requirement that there be a limited democracy, the please, in Ent's name, make there be a MINIMUM AGE requirement (OA based?) to be able to vote (let the howling, moaning and defamation of character statements begin)!

 

You have some interesting ideas - put them into the game as you see fit and we'll figure things out as we go.

 

Compared to living in the US, playing a creator ruled fantasy game is a nice break from reality.

 

If you truly desire to participate as the ruler of a democracy, I would be happy to write your name in for president in the next general elections.

 

Let's start a campaign: "Vote for Presid-ENT!"

[TirunCollimdus]

Considering that this is a beta game and change is supposed to be good along with the history of past votes on most of the polls about major changes, if I was Entropy I would just stop wasting my time making polls if the choice for 2/3s majority is the choice of players for a change to the game. This high a majority vote from past voting history seems like a major cop out. I think player want to set the bar that high so that we never have to make any changes and so the polls would eventually stop.

 

This is not, as I mentioned earlier, an elected group of officials with law degrees pursuing a career in politics/public service. We should completely toss out any comparison to real legal bodies like the Congress of the United States. We need to pick a percentage that is low enough to actually allow for a vote to come out positive at least once in a while. Anything that does not receive a 55% vote to get in the game and does not receive at least a 55% vote to be not in the game should be decided by Entropy. If the vote is 55% or higher against the idea then it does not come in.

 

This way things the players agree on come in things that are too close to call are left up to Entropy and things that players are against don't come in. Trying to raise the bar so high that we never make any decision because we cannot make the required majority for any question is not the solution. Entropy is trying to give us a voice and setting the bar too high is completely the opposite of what he is suggesting. Don't opt out by simply by setting the bar so high Entropy never brings anything to a vote in the first place.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Ateh]

The best way a democracy happens is

 

1. To kill everyone who disagrees with you, thats true western democracy for you, or put trade sanctions on them and kill them slowly, oh and also you have to keep adding cute little taxes onto everything until eventually there are so many taxes that people have seriously lost count.

 

2. Another way to run a democracy and that is to overthrow the ruling elite and put in place your own fall guy, then in 20-30 years time when he isnt playing ball anymore, you can use him as an excuse to invade his country. Because all the bad things he has done , he learnt from you and so you KNOW hes been doing them.

 

On a serious note, ( A Minor and E minor are quite serious notes ) Entropy cant kill everyone who disagrees so that idea is out, and the second suggestion is kind of what ''the council'' would turn into. They would have to have serious balls to do anything because people would start lynching them in game if they put something in no one likes LOL

 

Basically, I think a majority is based upon a simple fact, if one number is bigger than another, the bigger number is the majority, 52 is bigger than 50 , 65 is definately bigger than both of the others, and about margin of error in voting - once youve voted its too late to change your mind.

 

What has been said and is probably the best point if read is that we need to be made aware BEFORE we vote about what each possibility is going to mean, and thats the only way anyone will be able to vote properly and with sound judgement.

 

Peace ( and voting booths with hidden radon pouches )

[Dent]

I think Burfoot hit on something good here, and this thread is an excellent example of it.

 

If you are interested in a poll or opinion, start a thread up in suggestions that lays out the proposal and a few key points. Let the people who read that forum (ie - the folks that care enough to make and read suggestions) hash it out for a while to get as much input as possible. Then set a time for the vote, with a time limit on it.

 

Once the time limit expires, do the math, plain and simple. As teh god, you may override any votes that you deem too close, but 51% counts almost everywhere as a majority.

 

This avoids these long drawn out whingefests where every preschooler and his teddy bear drools out an opinion and the rest of the community wastes harvesting time answering. Also it should save on the Maalox bills.

[Blodoks]

Majority, for me, is 50,1%

 

If you need a Quorum for special things, in EL, it should be 57,5%

 

Over 65% it's sheer utopianism: you can have it only if you make a poll about free stuff from you.

 

BTW, when in a poll you get 6 top #1 (att-def-sum-alc-pot-cra) + tons of old players, go ahead and

if some blackmailer threat to leave the game, ban him.

[Ermabwed]

I agree with a bunch of stuff said above, in particular I'd go for a 55% majority. But I'd like to suggest the following procedure for voting as has been hinted at above as well:

make separate posts for voting and discussing things,

starting the discussion maybe 3 days early (on a Friday or Thursday), that way you can supply additional information in the poll that was asked in the discussion,

then start the voting (the following Monday/Sunday) and leave the polls open for at least a week.

The poll's post should consist of a complete description of the proposed change, the pros and cons you see (including the "countereffects" like "no mule pets") and the major points made in the discussion that speak for or against it, possibly linking to more information as Lexi suggested.

Keep all of the discussion in the discussion thread and only update the poll thread if new pros/cons arise later.

Heavily moderate the discussion (yes, I know, it's easy to ask other people to work but imo posts like "I'll leave the game if this goes through" violate forum rules and add nothing).

Some polls should have more options or should be split into a number of polls, e.g. the cap poll as was mentioned would have been clearer if it had been a pure "yes/no cap" and then a vote on where to place the cap (40/48/60/...) or how to implement it (race/attribute specific/...) later.

[conavar]

I think player want to set the bar that high so that we never have to make any changes and so the polls would eventually stop.

 

TirunCollimdus

 

That thought had crossed my mind as well .

 

 

 

 

Im soooo glad Elections work on the majority and not on the 2/3 proposed here:

 

" no candidate reach the required 2/3 majority, so the old president/pm stays be default "

[FarStar]

I agree with the other people who have stated 2/3 or approximately 65% is a good majority

[asgnny]

I would personally be in favor of some sort of advisory team (I suppose it would be similar to the failed player's council ), as primary feedback to Entropy of what players might want. The next step could then be better advised options, in a public poll (such as the one for the attribute cap).

 

Also, given that the wording of a poll can be for or against something, I think a simple majority is sufficient. If a vote is "for a cap at 48", then whatever majority is decided upon (let's say 75%, just for an extreme example) is needed for the vote to succeed. 75% of players would need to vote "for" a cap at 48 for the motion to carry. If the poll is worded as a vote "for no attribute cap", then 75% of players need to vote for "no cap", otherwise there would be one imposed.

 

Anything other than a simple majority vote can very easily skew the outcome based on wording (essentially, whichever option is deemed the status quo).

 

Edit: changed spacing

Edited December 14, 2007 by asgnny

[HeLLRaiZeR]

60% sure as hell is a majority.. The side with 60% of the vote actually has 50% more votes than the other side which I'd call a huge victory.

[Schmurk]

For me, the majority is over 50% but it's not the problem I think...

IMO, the main problem are the options in the poll. They need more clarification.

 

You're a smart guy Ent and people have a lot of difficulties to understand that you never get the ideas out of the hat like this and that a change never comes alone... So if you just expose only one change at a time, it will be eternally the same problem. At which % should you decide to do it or not?

 

IMO, you should better propose several changes at the same time. The idea is to tell people that there'll be a change whatever happens and they'll have to choose between two solutions.

For example, with the attributes cap, you can just propose the two options that appeared along the thread:

1 - Yes, cap the attributes and introduce mulling pets.

2 - No cap but no pets.

 

In this case, I think that people will think a bit longer before voting and the result will be clear, the vote over 50% win.

 

Just my 2 cents

[vytukas]

I would say it is fair to define majority if it exceeds the standart deviation of the opinions

 

That is erf(1/sqrt(2)) ~= 68.2689%

[Zamirah]

I would personally be in favor of some sort of advisory team (I suppose it would be similar to the failed player's council ), as primary feedback to Entropy of what players might want.

Don't make polls.

Ask people who know the game - old players.

Do as you want.

If you make mistakes - can happen to all - admit and change to something better (ROT )

 

If you make polls, will you get answers from people, who don't know the game or who post before they think.

And some people will change their mind several times

[Corlith]

As much as I would appreciate taking part in voting polls about things, I think that the most efficient way for an evolving game to go in the best directions with the least friction would be Entropy as leader of a council/advisory team.

 

People hand-picked because they have experience, good judgement, see the whole picture of things, want the game to develop and so on. Who to be in this team would be up to Entropy, just a small group of people of all kinds really. And once in a while, replace these advisors just to be sure to keep things fresh and bringing in new thoughts and input.

 

And if there are voting polls made, if say Entropy and advisors are split 50/50 on something, in my opinion anything from around 55% and up is a majority.

[hades]

I see people have different opinions about what is a majority, some say 51% others 70% among several numbers. When the poll is submitted to vote its clear that the result won't be expressive, none option will overrun the others and if we accept it we should also accept the results of the other poll.

[groomsh]

I'd say 51% is enough to make changes.

As few others stated, this game is still in development and still evolving, so making it hard to apply changes makes no sense.

Whether the change is good or not, only time will show and ofcourse appropriate actions can be made if it goes wrong ...

[Entropy]

and if we accept it we should also accept the results of the other poll.

 

Huh?

[Fedora]

If you ask me what majority should be i would say 50% of the voters +1. But this is not the case. I see a couple of points to analyze:

 

 

- Polls are proposed in the wrong way: you cant ask us all to vote for or against a change because some will tend to protect their own business (think about the NMT), some will vote without thinking, some will bitch, and only a small minority of experienced players (surely not oa based) will vote for the benefit of the game and the community. If Entropy feels a change is needed, we can only vote on how it is applied (hard cap at 48, soft cap, spells linked to reas...). At least for major changes. And i agree with a team of players Entropy can consult with to come up with ideas and adjustments.

 

- Experience must be taken into account: old players opinions are more important than the average player ones (and when top #1 players say ok all together, what else is needed?). Also opinions of players knowing what they are talking about by supporting with examples and reasoning (so public discussion before a poll are advised imo). It has been clearly showed in the cap poll that many are not aware that coord is not the only attribute increasing dexterity/reaction, or that tons of emu are not mandatory to achieve something ...what should be the weight of their vote?

 

Summing up:

 

For small changes, a majority of 50%+1 with votation open to all is ok.

 

For big changes is a three step process:

- Entropy decides a change is needed,

- makes a votation with a sort of council (with a higher majority, say 65%)) to decide what options we can choose from

- and then the options are given us to vote for. And if an error is made, quoting Zamirah, we can always step back.

 

 

Edit: spell check

Edited December 14, 2007 by Fedora

[DogBreath]

I would personally be in favor of some sort of advisory team (I suppose it would be similar to the failed player's council ), as primary feedback to Entropy of what players might want. The next step could then be better advised options, in a public poll (such as the one for the attribute cap).

<snip>...

Edit: changed spacing

The issue I have with this (a council) is the proliferation of what I'll call, "STFU newb, you know nothing since you haven't been here that long" syndrome. It's perfectly clear to me, from several suggestions that I've made so far, that "since you haven't pk'd that much, or haven't played that long, or your character's stats suck" that I must know nothing. In fact that might just be the opposite. Maybe I haven't played this particular game my entire gaming life. Maybe I've played nearly 100x this type of game and hence have experienced this type of game in many flavors and incarnations. In fact, I've been the top pker on several games, maybe I just choose not to deal with the stress invovled in pk any more

 

I think it's a bad mistake to throw away that kind of experience/knowlege just because someone is perceived to be a newbie. Obviously, not every idea I have is a good one, but clearly a couple of them have been looked at carefully, considered for implementation, or even implemented already (just last night I saw Acelon telling everyone to use the #IL command during the invasion so they'd know how many invasion monsters are left.) How many others might there be out there like me?

 

Maybe, in fact, it'd be a bigger mistake to put all your "eggs in one basket". What I mean is, if someone has been so dedicated to this game in the past that they've played no other game (or nearly no other game(s)), then their depth of knowledge isn't nearly what it should be to make such suggestions as to how an MMO is really run. Just because you're knowledgable about THIS game doesn't mean you really know that much about gaming in general. A narrow view of gaming may, more than likely, result in something that's good for you, but not good for the community or the game in the long run.

 

I don't mean to sound insulting here, but a council of high level players of EL is more likely to contain a select few that have played this game, and only this game, for a long time.

 

Clearly, getting everyone's opinion about how something should be, or not be done let's you get a wide variety opinions and taps into unknown resources as far as knowledge and experiences go. As others have stated, and I believe I did as well, it might be best to state the issues at hand and ask for ideas about those issues, from everyone. Then, after deciding which ideas fit the the issue at hand, both through a gameplay and development/maintenance point of view, then possibly put a poll in to see how people like those ideas. Maybe let more than one be chosen from after deciding that more than one might solve the problem and hence the players might want to decide. And, once again, the final decision has to come down to who actually has to put up with the complaints and deal with the issues surrounding any solution.

 

And, as for any poll, you're simply getting feedback on how people feel, hence a lanslide victory is what you want. If you're close to 50/50 then you've got nearly half the people in the community feeling badly about the choice, probably not what you're looking for.

Edited December 14, 2007 by DogBreath

[conavar]

 

 

 

And, as for any poll, you're simply getting feedback on how people feel, hence a lanslide victory is what you want. If you're close to 50/50 then you've got nearly half the people in the community feeling badly about the choice, probably not what you're looking for.

 

Landslide victory is never going to happen in any poll unless its " vote if you want free st00f", like you have said yourself many people have many views and if you wait for them to all agree then nothing at all will be done.

 

Why do you think the majority of polls/elections world wide are based on the majority winner, even if that majority is only 2% ? , because it works and is the farest way for all involved,

 

Lets take the cap poll as an example. you could say that the NO vote didnt get a landslide so hey lets implement it

 

As for the player group... there knowledge of THIS game is what counts not knowledge of countless others.

and as for players having good ideas extra. cool thats what the suggestion forum is for

Edited December 14, 2007 by conavar

[DogBreath]

 

 

 

And, as for any poll, you're simply getting feedback on how people feel, hence a lanslide victory is what you want. If you're close to 50/50 then you've got nearly half the people in the community feeling badly about the choice, probably not what you're looking for.

 

Landslide victory is never going to happen in any poll unless its " vote if you want free st00f", like you have said yourself many people have many views and if you wait for them to all agree then nothing at all will be done.

 

Why do you think the majority of polls/elections world wide are based on the majority winner, even if that majority is only 2% ? , because it works and is the farest way for all involved,

 

As for the player group... there knowledge of THIS game is what counts not knowledge of countless others

Obviously we have completely different points of view on this.

 

Being knowlegable about games in general gives insights into this game without having had played every aspect, there's only so many ways to skin an apple. I've often been accused of being a "more experiened" player in disguise because I already know how to play this type of game and seem to know more about this game than I should given my time here.

 

Yes, I don't know everything about it, but having played many of this type of game starts you out huge advantage over the average new player (and some times confuses that long time player as you seem to know nearly as much as they do in a quick period of time.)

 

Also, having played, developed, and helped to troubleshoot/maintain several other games gives insights that just playing a single game cannot. Once again, I think you're reacting with "STFU newb, you can't possibly know that much because you haven't played that long" syndrome. It's not the first time I've run into it and obviously not going to be the last time

 

EDIT: and if you look at who joined the forums first you might notice I started playing this game a few months before you did, even though I may have taken a break for some time period and am working on a different character (computer meltdowns can sour your gaming experience some... lol)

Edited December 14, 2007 by DogBreath

[conavar]

 

Once again, I think you're reacting with "STFU newb, you can't possibly know that much because you haven't played that long" syndrome. It's not the first time I've run into it and obviously not going to be the last time

 

lol far from it.. ( if I had ment that I would have said it )

 

My point was .. I myself have played RPG's in one form or another for 18 years and I can bring suggestions / input to the game. but it doesnt make me an expert on this game, which is all important..

 

 

 

 

edit: lol @ " I joined before you " to be honest , I started in 2005 with a differant character and didnt really like the game , but came back to it in 2006 and joined the forums few months after

Edited December 14, 2007 by conavar

[DogBreath]

 

Once again, I think you're reacting with "STFU newb, you can't possibly know that much because you haven't played that long" syndrome. It's not the first time I've run into it and obviously not going to be the last time

 

lol far from it.. ( if I had ment that I would have said it )

 

My point was .. I myself have played RPG's in one form or another for 18 years and I can bring suggestions / input to the game. but it doesnt make me an expert on this game, which is all important..

 

 

 

 

edit: lol @ " I joined before you " to be honest , I started in 2005 with a differant character and didnt really like the game , but came back to it in 2006 and joined the forums few months after

Touche

[Vanyel]

I just wonder if this 50/60/70/whatever majority means a share of all players or only players reading forums/speaking English/etc.

I'm not sure if this, in my opinion very important, issue has been addressed at all.

If it was up to me I would rather start with activating all players in forums, then think about a way to provice some democracy.

Oh, I don't think democracy or anything similar might work in this case.