Democracy in EL

[asgnny]

I've always consider the government here to be more in the form of a Benevolent Dictatorship than anything else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator

 

as such, read it all, think about it and YOU decide, Ent.

 

That's how I consider it too, but this is subjective (some think I am a nice guy who wants the best for the game, while others think I am a fucking asshole interested only about making money from the game).

So despotism is an objective term.

 

Last I checked, EL was free. Anyone paying $ for it does so by choice.

[bkc56]

As with many of the recent polls, this does not have a simple one-number answer.

 

In California, votes on financial issues require 2/3 majority to pass. Other issues only require a simple majority (>50%). But those only apply to votes with a yes/no answer.

 

Polls in EL should often have multiple choices. The cap poll could easily have had three choices based on the discussion: no cap, 48, and 60. The vote would have been very different had those been the choices.

 

Of course a three (or more) way poll looks simply for the choice that gets the most votes. But if some results are to close to call, they you need a run-off of the 2-3 most voted for choices.

 

How does this apply to EL?

 

* Polls for major game mechanic changes (like skill or attribute caps) should require 2/3.

 

* Polls for smaller changes (like the NMT cape breaking) should require >50%.

 

* Polls for multiple choices should require a simple majority with a run-off required if the difference is less than say 5%.

 

* All polls should clearly specify the decision requirements (2/3, 1/2, etc) and a time-limit of at least 24 hours (but 2-3 days would be better).

[Vormavius]

60% have 50% more votes than 40%.

 

55%-60% is an enough majority imo.

[conavar]

Just a quick point before the poll opens..

 

If the winning majority is set to high .. what happens if neither side reaches that % ?

 

ie: if a yes / no vote is set and the majority needed is 65% + but the Yes's only get 63% . doesnt that mean that the No votes win with less % ( 37%) , to be totally fair majority should be 51%

 

 

edit :

 

on a slightly lighter note... what percentage of the poll is going to be needed to decide what percent we work to

Edited December 14, 2007 by conavar

[SL7yz0r]

I would say 55% would be majority.

Either way one group would be unhappy. Since this is beta, we should go with the changes and try them out, that's what we're here for. Not much gets accomplished by doing nothing.

Will there ever be a "final" EL client?

 

Wont this game always be in beta? o.O

[sirdan]

i think anywhere between 55 and 65 is good. i also think when a voting poll is set up there should be a list of pros and cons to the decision. that way people dont just vote uneducated on the topic.

[mciscass]

The first definition of majority is anything over half. However, in U.S. politics, majority is considered to be... anything over half (except when overriding a presidential veto, which requires a 2/3 majority or 67%).

 

I voted no to the cap, but the majority voted yes. Margin of error does not apply to majority votes, as that would tend to favor the status quo which already tends to be favored because we resist change.

 

So, majority is anything over 50% (even in a vote as close as 49% to 51%). It may not favor me in the most recent vote, but I wouldn't want it any other way in future votes.

 

VOTE THAT MAJORITY MEANS ANYTHING OVER HALF.

[Sidran]

bkc56 made a good point and a step forward imo..

Such things should be taken into account..

 

What is most important imo is that our voting mechanisms primary role should not be

pure math, but ability to supply Entropy with highest possible quality results.. He will then be

enabled to make easier and more precise final judgements or decisions..

[Lesbegue]

I'd say 40% given that ent have been thinking about the consequences (good and bad) of each update. Of course if it is something random like something a player brings up, then i would lean towards 60%. But honestly I dont like to depend on numbers. I feel that the credible points made in each updating issues should be taken into account if havent.

more to say later after listening to more opinions.

 

LeSBeGUe

[TirunCollimdus]

All of these ideas about how real life government works and 2/3 votes for approval need to be completely discarded. This is not a representative democracy. We do not have 3 branches of government. We have one person in charge of everything. We need to place some trust in that leader or go home. Giving us a voice is something we should appreciate and trying to declare 2/3 as a mandate that we have to reach is giving players way too much credit. We are not all elected officials who get paid to study these decisions and make votes and the polls are limited in amount of time to respond.

 

We need to have a week IMO to get all votes. 3 days is a bare bones minimum since not everyone finds out about polls at the same time. Based on past voting history we will never change anything if we need 65% or higher to make changes. This game is beta and changing and growing is part of what we are here for in the first place. We are testers. Beta testers. We need to be open to change and if a poll gets 55% then that is a clear majority of the players and a change should be made.

 

TirunCollimdus

[DogBreath]

Sorry for the second reply on this, but after discussing this with my friend (as I often do for a second opinion) I would just like to expand on my reply some.

 

I said 75%, but maybe that should be more of an indicator. Of course the choice is yours, but you were asking for opinions when you ask for a vote (obviously.)

 

I don't think asking is a bad idea, it gives you a chance to decide if your ideas are on target or possibly not. It also gives people the oppurtunity to analyze the problem you're trying to solve and formulate other solutions that could be different, yet achieve the same goal (and possibly more).

 

As I know you're quite aware of, there are often several solutions to the same problem, some possibly more palatable than others. The polls might need to be digested by you in a way where you say to yourself, hrm, maybe this is (or isn't) the best solution, and if not, is there another way to acheive the same without such a close margin of victory?

 

I don't presume to tell you what to do, or how to do it, this is just how I thought about the recent poll. 60/40 to me means, wait a sec here, maybe this is a bit to close and possibly time to rethink the solution (which is then how I approached my answer.) If another solution can be found that makes "more/most" people happy, say 75% (leaving a margin of 5% error to acheive the 70% you were hoping for) then you know you've hit it on the nose.

 

But if no solution can be found that statisfies enough people, then the choice (in my humble opinion) should be made on what's best for YOU. If it's easier to administer in the long run one way, versus the other, or if it creates less work, overhead, server load, etc... You have to run the game and deal with all the crap associated with running it.

[Lexi]

Just a quick point before the poll opens..

 

If the winning majority is set to high .. what happens if neither side reaches that % ?

 

ie: if a yes / no vote is set and the majority needed is 65% + but the Yes's only get 63% . doesnt that mean that the No votes win with less % ( 37%) , to be totally fair majority should be 51%

You serve a good point, was another thing I thought when I was reading the last couple pages of the Attribute Cap Poll.

 

I think, polls are nice to the community, let us state our opinions about it (most of our "complaining" is rather not, but just concerns that have not been brought to our attention, like the EMU thing, which later we found out, we were most likely to be offered a mule of some sort, half of the "complaints" would have been narrowed if that was mentioned of a possible implement).

 

Now I am not saying people wont complain, I mean, that's just our nature... but more poll options are needed too, a yes or no poll on a sudden idea is just crazy... >.>

 

After we've voted, "teh GoD" can then decide if it's the best decision or not. If he decides differently than we've voted, oh well... some will leave (if any), most will stay.

 

I love this game for community, it's a wonderful with wonderful people. as other's have stated, we're very lucky to have someone who lets the community have a say, whether he gets pissed off at our replies or not. I personally love it when polls come around, cause then I have some good laughs and long reading while I harvest! (oops, I best get to storage now and drop off this Blue Quartz load).

 

And that's what I have to say for now.

[conavar]

I'd say 40% given that ent have been thinking about the consequences (good and bad) of each update. Of course if it is something random like something a player brings up, then i would lean towards 60%. But honestly I dont like to depend on numbers. I feel that the credible points made in each updating issues should be taken into account if havent.

more to say later after listening to more opinions.

 

LeSBeGUe

 

 

[Sidran]

Maybe a good idea would be to make a simple but effective mechanism for voting ingame.. That would allow for an additional detail.. Every player would have "vote points" as much as he has OA levels.. That would count elites and experienced opinion much more.. Also would lessen the chances of fraud..

 

That's less reliable, people can make a lot of voting alts.

At least on the forums you'll need an e-mail address and you need to be approved, so having multiple accounts is considerably harder.

 

You know best, I admit.. Maybe a cap of two votings per IP could lower fraud attempts and negatively hit only about 0.01% of players.. What ever, but if we do it, I think it should be done with nicely articulated purpose and rules.. Maybe registering email accounts ingame? If its possible on forum why not ingame.. just thoughts.. and thanks for taking them into account

[Burfoot]

Are any of us Qualified to vote?

in reading the 20 page cap thread.. i realized that very few ppl see the whole picture i imeaditly thought of effects of cap to pvp- pvp will rock! and that pk would change quite a bit - but so many ppl had thought of so many other effects that i would have never thought of. An open discussion like this opens eyes for all i think..

 

What I Propose is Have a open discussion of topic on forums.. then a vote - but from the top 2 (active) players in each skill catagory this would give rep to all skills:) and I would trust them all to make a wise vote.

Proposal:

1. open discussion in fourms

2. form a legislative or judical panel of top players (maybe top 2 of ea skill?) (only 24 ppl to deal with)

3. After (X) days panel votes.

 

 

This would also make top ranking really mean something!

 

kk flame away good people!

[SL7yz0r]

Are any of us Qualified to vote?

in reading the 20 page cap thread.. i realized that very few ppl see the whole picture i imeaditly thought of effects of cap to pvp- pvp will rock! and that pk would change quite a bit - but so many ppl had thought of so many other effects that i would have never thought of. An open discussion like this opens eyes for all i think..

 

What I Propose is Have a open discussion of topic on forums.. then a vote - but from the top 2 (active) players in each skill catagory this would give rep to all skills:) and I would trust them all to make a wise vote.

Proposal:

1. open discussion in fourms

2. form a legislative or judical panel of top players (maybe top 2 of ea skill?) (only 24 ppl to deal with)

3. After (X) days panel votes.

 

 

This would also make top ranking really mean something!

 

kk flame away good people!

Cool idea, i think more like top 5-7 of each skill though.

[Entropy]

There was once some idea to have a player council, but it didn't really work.

[LadyBea]

I came to Eternal Lands 3 years ago. In that time have been many changes, some I did not like (cooldown was one) but most of them I did.

Over these years I've become addicted and have taken all new steps and changes in my stride, as have many others. This game is growing and expanding.

If we do not allow change, by having the majority set too high, (e.g. 75%+) how in God's (Entropy) Name is the game going to grow and progress to more and better things?

I'm one of those who likes things to stay the same. Maybe I'm a little set in my ways, and that may just be the product of age.

So in my humble opinion, if we have to have votes on what path Entropy/Radu takes then let it be only 2/3 or just under at 60%. and leave the polls open over the weekends and maybe a day either side.

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

(Edited for grammar and spelling)

Edited December 14, 2007 by LadyBea

[TessAnna]

Two thirds majority vote sounds reasonable. As was pointed out, leaves room for the "oops I voted wrong" and the people who do not read the forums. Also, with a two thirds majority vote, there is a pretty clear cut idea of what the majority of the community is thinking. I, in no way am comparing this to Congress (lmao) am just stating what sounds reasonable.

 

Thanks for asking for community input.

[Ghrae]

I don't understand why you put up polls. You get irritated every time.

 

And too many people don't read the topic nor think about what it could mean, they vote emotionally and it's a waste. It doesn't help them or the game.

 

Since that is the case, it doesn't matter if it's 50% or 70%.

 

We've already established that you are final say in game. Why don't you collect a group of people with various experiences in game and form your OWN council. Not a republic or a democracy. But an advisory panel that can present counter points and hash out ideas.

 

Anything has to be better than wanting to ban people during each vote

[conavar]

Two thirds majority vote sounds reasonable. As was pointed out, leaves room for the "oops I voted wrong" and the people who do not read the forums. Also, with a two thirds majority vote, there is a pretty clear cut idea of what the majority of the community is thinking.

 

 

the only problem with a 2/3rds majority vote is like i stated earlier... if the majority only reaches 64 % then the opposite side/voters win with only 36% .

 

to be totally 100% fare vote . a majority must mean just that a majority ( 51% in a two option poll)

 

and i totally agree with Ghrae, maybe Ent could have like a focus group to ask about proposed changes, and the best people to have would be the ones who he trusts to moderate his game

Edited December 14, 2007 by conavar

[DogBreath]

<snip>

2. form a legislative or judical panel of top players (maybe top 2 of ea skill?) (only 24 ppl to deal with)

3. After (X) days panel votes.

 

 

This would also make top ranking really mean something!

 

kk flame away good people!

I see your point here, but I think this has a possibility of throwing away a lot of good ideas as people might be tempted not to even give them if they feel the "council" isn't going to listen. Just because someone's new, or their character isn't in the top whatever, doesn't mean their opinions/ideas aren't as good as anyone elses.

 

Not meant to be a flame, but I've been on several other games where this is true and it's usually the case that the council is often abused and the decisions are often way off the mark. People will just want to have the top characters to make sure they get their way (not always what's best way or even considering others...)

Edited December 14, 2007 by DogBreath

[Sayre]

I don't understand why you put up polls. You get irritated every time.

 

And too many people don't read the topic nor think about what it could mean, they vote emotionally and it's a waste. It doesn't help them or the game.

 

Since that is the case, it doesn't matter if it's 50% or 70%.

 

We've already established that you are final say in game. Why don't you collect a group of people with various experiences in game and form your OWN council. Not a republic or a democracy. But an advisory panel that can present counter points and hash out ideas.

 

Anything has to be better than wanting to ban people during each vote

Agreed. It get very frustrating to see an idea put out there for consideration (something Ent doesn't even need to do, god knows the vast majority of other MMO's I have seen don't) and things get heated and...nothing.

 

The council thing (although it has been tried before) might be interesting. I certainly don't think it should be a mod thing, like Conavar said. There are a lot of people out there, mod or not, that know the game, want it to grow and succeed, and are able to put their point succinctly and with a minimum of emotion or excessive bias (everyone has at least a little bias )

 

Other than the idea of an advisory group, bkc brought up a valid point too; not all votes are created equal. Some are about far more critical things than others and as a result, perhaps a larger majority is warranted.

 

All that said, no-one knows more about the game than Ent. He gets to see "under the hood" in a way that the rest of us don't. Democracy's power is in proportion to how well informed the voting population is, and as such, not every game decision is something that is suitable for vote.

 

Anyway, back to finding this blasted xmas tree.

 

S.

[TirunCollimdus]

The player council thing was tried and it failed. If you are serious about a player council it should only give Entropy suggestions for the available answers in the poll. If the answers are acceptable to Entropy and suggested by the council as things we might go for then a higher margin of victory might be established. I don't feel that repeating an idea that did not work the first time is going to help.

 

A 2/3s margin of victory is asking for too much. We need to keep in mind that change is supposed to be good for a beta game. This 2/3s margin is based on changing laws that have been stable and successful for over 200 years. How can you even consider trying to hold changes in the game to the same standard. The 2/3s majority was decided on to prevent change not to accommodate it. We need a much more friendly margin.

 

55% makes sure that even with people who would change their votes you still get a majority and since this is a beta game and we are trying to make it better that is what we should need. This will give us chance to try new things and that is what we need for a game that is supposed to be evolving.

 

TirunCollimdus

[Queen Uni]

I think, polls are nice to the community, let us state our opinions about it (most of our "complaining" is rather not, but just concerns that have not been brought to our attention, like the EMU thing, which later we found out, we were most likely to be offered a mule of some sort, half of the "complaints" would have been narrowed if that was mentioned of a possible implement).

 

I think polls are a good way for you to see how players feel about proposed changes to the game and appreciate that you do take the time to post them. The final decision should and will always be yours alone, but for poll purposes i think 55% is a good margin to go by.

 

But also, as Lexi stated, the polls should contain all pertinant information or links to that information so that decisions can be made based on all the facts that affect the suggestions made. This would elimnate alot of negativity towards new ideas and alot of "uninformed voting".

Edited December 14, 2007 by Queen Uni