Democracy in EL

[Entropy]

In this topic we will TALK (not vote) about the democracy in EL, and we will decide what it means, and how it should be used.

 

First, I have to mention that EL is in no way a democracy. It can be best defined as a oligarchy, or perhaps despotism.

The rulling class of EL is nice enough to sometimes permit it's humble subjects to decide on various aspects of the game, through democratic vote. The majority wins.

 

Now we have to define what majority means (in this context). Is it 50%? 60%? 75%?

Feel free to discuss, then I'll make a poll where you vote, and that decision will be in effect until the end of 2008, retroactively (ie. it will include the cap vote too).

 

All the new polls about decision making from now on will be based on this definition of majority.

 

So discuss about this subject first, debate the merits of each option, and prepare to vote when the poll is done.

[Evalin]

The final word is always yours mate, that's just the law of the land that you created. I've seen many games, and this is one of the few that the communities imput is so well heard. Not suprising, it also has one of the most competent of gaming communities. That's probably why I keep coming back, no matter how many "breaks" I take.

 

That being said, if this were a democracy, I'd agree with your comment in the cap poll, that 70% is fair for the implementation of a major system into the game. No matter how much I want to push for the change, something of this magnitude should be accepted by a good majority of the players.

 

But if you consider this an Oligarchy, the vast majority of experienced players, or even moderators, were definitely on the side supporting the cap.

 

Edit: And to actually answer the question, yeah, 70% I agree is a majority. 50 or 60 would be to close to a margin of error, some players not being online for a few days, or having one vote, then changing their view after the fact, ect.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Evalin

[redsoxlovr10]

Well I think that like in congress, every topic that is passed should have a winning 2/3 of the votes, so about 70%.

Edited December 14, 2007 by redsoxlovr10

[conavar]

In this humble serfs opinion a majority in this context should be anything over 55% , it then leave a 4% leeway for people who have voted mistakenly or like n00bs without thinking and still leaves a 51% majority

 

 

edit: imo anything over 75% you would be lucky to get anything agreed upon

Edited December 14, 2007 by conavar

[Kidberg]

I have to agree with the 70% range, maybe 65%, that sounds like a good majority.

[Euric]

there should be democracy here in el i think but of a limited sort, the authority power i think should have the last say becuase some times people dont put into account all of the things that come from a specifc change. also when voting on a change, in order to implement this i have the opinion base of something like 85% and over should agree with it.

[DogBreath]

I would think in a setting such as this that a majority would be around 75% (most of the people) anything less than that is much closer to 50/50 and might have a major effect if either choice (on what ever we're choosing) is made.

[weaverdas]

I think this vote should include an amount of time (several days) that a poll affecting all of EL should be left open before the issue is decided.

[Orick]

Well I think that like in congress, every topic that is passed should have a winning 2/3 of the votes, so 75%.

75% is 1/4 66% is 2/3 i vote for 65% myself

[macca]

The final word is always yours mate, that's just the law of the land that you created. I've seen many games, and this is one of the few that the communities imput is so well heard. Not suprising, it also has one of the most competent of gaming communities. That's probably why I keep coming back, no matter how many "breaks" I take.

 

that i agree with totaly... and yes this is probaly the only game i have played where the community is so well heard.

others i have played dont even care about the comunity or how the game will evolve on some.

 

i'm not to certain i want this game to be to much of a democracy i can remember when cool down came out....... mana pots had 5 sec cool down and gave 10 mana worked out alot cheaper and better for training yet %80 of el wanted them changed to 10 sec cool with 5 mana again i honestly dont think they realised what they lost till it was to late

[weaverdas]

Well I think that like in congress, every topic that is passed should have a winning 2/3 of the votes, so 75%.

75% is 1/4 66% is 2/3 i vote for 65% myself

...75% is 3/4...but I know what you meant...

[asgnny]

I don't quite see it as simply as stating that for all votes, xx percentage is enough. Unfortunately, votes are not always boolean. In the case of the proposed attribute caps, the options given were "48 cap" and "no cap". This split apart those players who may prefer a different cap (e.g. 60) to 48, but prefer 48 to 0.

As an example:

Player1 preferences: 48 cap > 60 cap > no cap: Vote: 48 cap
Player2 preferences: 60 cap > 48 cap > no cap: Vote: 0 cap (because 48 is not the desired preference)

 

Even though Player2 prefers a cap to no cap, he may vote "no cap" hoping for another option. If it were stated that there were either no other cap levels being considered at all, take it or leave it; or more simply "vote yes if you would be for a cap, no if you are against" would have results more reflective of the player base.

 

Maybe a simple 50% majority is enough for ideas supported by Entropy, and 60-66% to overturn (e.g. if the idea is vetoed). Also, I think it would help to have a closing date for polls (preferably spanning over a weekend) so players can vote, and encourage others to as well. If one side of an argument is ahead 6 votes to 2, that doesn't necessarily mean 1000 players would not vote for either side later on.

[FatboyJaxx]

I think everyone's points about what a majority vote should entail are interesting and generally on the high side in my opinion. Judging by previous polls the trend is they are generally pretty close and I think that if the poll comes out as a 70-80% majority is required for changes then nothing will ever change. You'll have constant fairly evenly split polls and every idea is rejected so the game stagnates. Obviously none of us want this.

 

I think in the poll I personally will go for a 60% vote for or against is majority for the reasons I have oulined above.

[toban]

66.6........%, I agree with the 2/3's vote, so if it needs to be rounded down to 5's, 65%

[Isenguard]

Radu you have the power to make the decisions nice of you to ask for peoples oppinions. But with people complaining they should shut up and dont argue with u. If they want something that you dont like, they should deal with it or make there own game.

Just my oppinion

-Isenguard (in game and on pk server)

[FirEBallS]

Hello Radu

 

first I think you, the mods, the programes should have the greatest weight in all that goes on in game.

 

Next would be the real old players the ones from befor the great crash who seem to just love this game

(not many of us left)

 

then the 2 year plus players.

 

That being said everyone in there nature hates change. so a vote like we are having with caps needs time to sink in befor a poll is taken

as for a majority vote 3 to 2 seems great (for those that don't no math thats 60% / 40%)

 

But I would be happy with less even 55% to pass all votes

 

FireBalls

Edited December 14, 2007 by FirEBallS

[Aislinn]

I would say 55% would be majority.

Either way one group would be unhappy. Since this is beta, we should go with the changes and try them out, that's what we're here for. Not much gets accomplished by doing nothing.

[nicky]

65% would make a solid majority IMO.

[Guest Annatira]

I've always consider the government here to be more in the form of a Benevolent Dictatorship than anything else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator

 

as such, read it all, think about it and YOU decide, Ent.

[Sidran]

First of all, every proposal for changing of game mechanics should be advertised ingame for at least 7 days, few times a day(6-12).. So everybody could have time to be informed AND think AND discuss offers..

Such changes should be described as best as possible, even risking to be boring, so they dont leave place for bad understanding..

 

As I consider major changes comparable to constitutional changes in state affairs, majority of 2/3(66.6%) is needed for a measure to be accepted(at least when players are asked)

 

Maybe a good idea would be to make a simple but effective mechanism for voting ingame.. That would allow for an additional detail.. Every player would have "vote points" as much as he has OA levels.. That would count elites and experienced opinion much more.. Also would lessen the chances of fraud..

[Entropy]

I've always consider the government here to be more in the form of a Benevolent Dictatorship than anything else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator

 

as such, read it all, think about it and YOU decide, Ent.

 

That's how I consider it too, but this is subjective (some think I am a nice guy who wants the best for the game, while others think I am a fucking asshole interested only about making money from the game).

So despotism is an objective term.

[rmiles]

I think a 70 % majority would be good enough and I do think the poll should be left open for 5 days so that people who missed playing one day would still get a vote.

[sora_barzahd]

54% and up is good enough. Most people tend to accept the changes after a few weeks once they are implemented anyways.

[Entropy]

Maybe a good idea would be to make a simple but effective mechanism for voting ingame.. That would allow for an additional detail.. Every player would have "vote points" as much as he has OA levels.. That would count elites and experienced opinion much more.. Also would lessen the chances of fraud..

 

That's less reliable, people can make a lot of voting alts.

At least on the forums you'll need an e-mail address and you need to be approved, so having multiple accounts is considerably harder.

[TirunCollimdus]

When we are given an opportunity to have our voice heard it is because there is a suggested change to make a better game. There is no way we should err on the side of caution in making our decisions. Things can be rolled back if they are bad enough and other fixes can help mitigate anything that does not work as planned. Trying to get 66% or more of the players to agree on anything is not a good way to move the game forward. We need to make it as Conavar said 55%.

 

Anything that is closer needs to be decided by Entropy since he knows the whole big picture. If we try to get everyone to agree with everything that is proposed for changes we won't get anything done. There might as well not be any polls at all. Give us a chance to actually have a say on what happens. 55% is a clear majority. Getting things changed in EL should not require an act of Congress. We are not changing a real world constitution we are changing a game. Things can be done to fix anything that is a mistake. If we want a voice it has to be one that is a simple majority with room for error. 55% is the only way we can have a voice and get things done at all.

 

TirunCollimdus