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furzwei

el economy

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It has nothing to do with the nmt cape unbreakable/breakable or even ingame lol, it was like that long before some1 ever suspected the nmt will be ingame ;)

 

Check items that r bought for show off or for no grief days only, like red dragon armor sets, they almost dont break coz ppl r afraid to use them even with nmt.

Same with the price of warlocks cape's that ppl buy for their nice yellow colour and not the stats, never saw any1 wearing warlocks cape in actual combat, doubt even 1 left the game coz of breaking :P

Bronze armor set is also one of such items, axe of freezing too, eagle wing and its special version too :P

 

The reason final product is worth same or less than ings is simply the experience that ppl get for mixing.

Npc buying finished products "solves" the problem, like with spirit restoration pots or like with true sight pots, but just change(lower) the prices of them and u will see ppl sell them at the ings price or even little below.

 

mp

 

You are wrong. There are many people who use relatively crappy armors (augmented, chain, etc.) with NMT for training or PvP training.

Now, I am not saying that this will magically solve all the problems, but will be a step in the right direction.

 

There are some things that sound weird in EL NPC price system.

 

Typical example:

titanium bar = 8 titanium ore+ 7 FE

 

If some1 sells ingreds to NPC he/she gets 8*2.5+ 7*3 = 41 gc.

If some1 makes titanium bar, he/she gets 40gc for it at NPC.

 

And I even wasnt mentioning 3 coal needed, possible fails, food needed...

 

In short, you are losing money because you are making product

 

You don't get any experience by buying from NPC, now do you?

Making a tit bar gives lots of experience (alchemy, alchemy, and some harvesting under some circumstances).

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Yes quite a puzzling dilemna ;)

 

On one side, players wouldn't dare agree to have their hard-earned valuables possibly break, reducing the value of these items in the process (whether broken or not).

On the other hand, the supply needs to be lowered, or the demand needs to be increased so it can reach an equilibrium. Now to decrease supply what can be done?

 

Entropy can increase negative special days, decrease harvesting speeds, in general, increasing the difficulty to obtain these raw materials or go straight to the source and affect players that way - by disrupting successful manufacturing probabilities.

 

Instead Entropy has taken the other road and attempted to increase demand, by increasing break rates.The vote that disallowed the NMT to become breakable shows the EL community is shouting out -

"we don't want to lose items, yet we also dont want harv/manu to become harder, thus my wants are more important than having a stable economy"

 

I believe Entropy's judgements are for the best, I would also like to see more buyers (higher demand) in the market place. Of course you will be affected by something like a breakable NMT, but eventually we will all be affected. Some more than others, but the risks are worth taking imo.

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(For the record: just an opinion from someone who doesnt really care much about economics/inflation/ supply&demand/etc or EL's economy in general)

 

One of the problems with EL (and most other games) is that you can store something in one location, and have access to it in another, completely different location, for example: I can harvest 24k iron ore in Emerald valley, then go to White Stone and harvest 15k coal (and store it in NC), and then buy 9k fire essences from anyone at anyplace with a storage, then go to any storage of my liking (or multiple storages, doesn't matter), and manufacture 3k steel bars, which i can then sell to anyone, anywhere. In RL, you have to import your raw materials from different place, ship them all to the place of manufacturing, pay all the shipping fees aswell as import/export taxes, manufacture your products, and then move the products away again, or sell them at the place of manufacturing in bulk at a cheaper price.

 

I know EL is in a fantasy world where any abnormal thing that does not make sense, can be accounted for as magic, but still...

 

If all the storages in EL were made seperate, and if you could only access whatever you stored at that particular storage (except for gc, since in RL you store money in a bank to have access to it everywhere), it would be alot harder to make things, which will in turn cut down on mass production, and make prices more realistic. Also, this will spawn a new class of traders: traveling merchants, who will buy goods in one place and travel with them, to another place to sell for a better price (like the spice/silk caravans who traveled between Europe and the far east centuries ago).

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Why did this turn into a topic about fixing the economy?

Here's a nice saying:

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

This topic was originally started because the poster was confused about the way the economy in EL works.

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"If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

 

But it is broken.....

 

The economy suffers from extremely high competitiveness and excess supply. Great news for the consumer because they are getting the best deals. Suppliers are the ones who are suffering.

 

having competitiveness is a great thing in the real world but not as much in games. Suppliers just need to take advantage of things like "Price Fixing" that would be illegal in many countries in the real world.

 

Making NMT cape breakable will increase demand because more things would break. Also as the amount of NMT increases the value of it is decreasing. So those people who have invested in the NMT will find that its not worth as much in the future.

 

The brod is considered as the evil weapon and i do think its evil but hey it helps the economy greatly by destroying high priced armors.

 

Many games making changes to there games so that the economy improves. Some games have taken drastic action by not allowing free trade and setting minimum prices that something can be sold at or taxing anybody who sells under a certain price.

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Actually the economy would be defined more precisely by saying that it is a fracture of EL, or a flaw. It is not entirely broken just needs a few tweaks which is what ent is trying to do.

 

The brod is considered as the evil weapon and i do think its evil but hey it helps the economy greatly by destroying high priced armors.

Lol yes I do see what you mean, but this is like saying "yes tsunami's are evil, but they destroy infrastructure on the shoreline which is mainly owned by wealthy people and this greatly helps? the economy" :P

 

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

Let me guess, you're mainly a consumer?

Take a moment to roleplay - If you were a mass manufacturer, and this was your means of making a profit, how would you feel about having to lower your prices so far that you realise picking flowers would be more worthwhile?

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Take a moment to roleplay - If you were a mass manufacturer, and this was your means of making a profit, how would you feel about having to lower your prices so far that you realise picking flowers would be more worthwhile?

Even tho i had inorg 2, vegetal 4 and i was perkless to not lose too much money and to make me SRS/HE i still had to harvest blue lupines for gc at def 135+ and till i made oa 147, it was top 1 oa back then. And guess what, i hate harv/mix, i had to do that coz otherwise i wouldnt have enough gc for training/pk.

 

Monsters with nice drops made the difference( so yetis. arctic chims, giants, dragons), coz u can get nice gc when u kill them with sword( of coz u need to be crazy strong, have no lags, and have some luck to not break/not die too much :evilgrin:

 

mp

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Take a moment to roleplay - If you were a mass manufacturer, and this was your means of making a profit, how would you feel about having to lower your prices so far that you realise picking flowers would be more worthwhile?

Even tho i had inorg 2, vegetal 4 and i was perkless to not lose too much money and to make me SRS/HE i still had to harvest blue lupines for gc at def 135+ and till i made oa 147, it was top 1 oa back then. And guess what, i hate harv/mix, i had to do that coz otherwise i wouldnt have enough gc for training/pk.

 

Monsters with nice drops made the difference( so yetis. arctic chims, giants, dragons), coz u can get nice gc when u kill them with sword( of coz u need to be crazy strong, have no lags, and have some luck to not break/not die too much :evilgrin:

 

mp

Yes but fighting beasts among those magnitudes is a very long distance away for most of us. In the mean time until we reach those strengths (probability calculator results - 1:∞) we need to make cash the way we know how, i.e. harving/mixing. And I believe I speak for the vast majority of EL when I say:

"and I hope to actually make some sort of profit when sellings my hard earned items and somewhat avoiding the hopelessly gruelling task of competing against all the other suppliers for the few demanders that come along every once in a while!".

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serp sword:

 

serp stone = 2,5kgc.

Efe = 6kgc~

2 steel bars + 12 tit bars + 7 fes = ~600gc

 

so around 9kgc for the ings of a serp sword...

i tried buying serp swords for 6k... and it took me goddamn 6 hours to get 1 lol

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serp sword:

 

serp stone = 2,5kgc.

Efe = 6kgc~

2 steel bars + 12 tit bars + 7 fes = ~600gc

 

so around 9kgc for the ings of a serp sword...

i tried buying serp swords for 6k... and it took me goddamn 6 hours to get 1 lol

 

This is only an example of the lack of real players in the market channel due to the small numbers of online players at the time and because of the fact that the market channel has become a spam-a-thon by all the bots :confused:

You are trying to show that the economy is in a state of excess demand? But it's in an excess of supply actually.

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of course it is an excess supply....

nobody said it was excess demand..

because what happens when it is ex. supply? prices go down

what happens when it is ex. demand? prices go up

 

and prices reached their minimum... that is the great thing.. but i believe it also playes a role that the npc's havent changed their prices since the game began basically.. so there is no need for inflation if the "gov't" (seridia) doesnt change the prices... :confused:

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of course it is an excess supply....

nobody said it was excess demand..

because what happens when it is ex. supply? prices go down

what happens when it is ex. demand? prices go up

 

and prices reached their minimum... that is the great thing.. but i believe it also playes a role that the npc's havent changed their prices since the game began basically.. so there is no need for inflation if the "gov't" (seridia) doesnt change the prices... B)

The main point of tempest's post is to show how long it took to buy an item at a currently reasonable price, correct? (PC result was 7k for tit serp). This is opposing the theory of excess supply, as excess supply vs demand does not only affect the prices, but ironically, the amount of supply in the market :D

 

If you cannot find a fairly common item on the market after 6 hours, this isn't supporting the fact that supply is in excess. That is why, as I said previously, it is due to the amount of players in the market channel, nothing really with the economy of EL.

 

but so what happens of there is excess supply?

prices will go down and eventually supply will change itself until it reaches equilibrium...

 

so warrior i dont think thats really correct what you said about supply..

 

and actually if you think of it this constant excess supply is the reason prices are kept constant or constantly low because they reached their minimum

 

who is going to sell a FE under 3 gc for example? and since all the raw material prices are set by npcs, by adding up the prices of the raw materials we get the price of the final products (such as iron sword.. FEs, iron bars, hammer cost (capital):P, steel bar, and food)..

all of the products reached a minimum price and they will not go up in my opinon as long as supply is kept high

and supply will be high of everything... so lets enjoy a world without inflation!! :D

:D

 

dont misunderstand me..

 

i love this inflationless EL... 3 years ago i bought a FE and today i can sell it for the same 3 gc!! :D

i think this is great and that makes me wanna return to the game so often...

 

history doesnt decrease in its value!

You do realise that if demand was increased while you were away, the prices of your FE's would've been increased. Oh and EL isn't quite inflationless, FE's might've stayed the same, but EFE's have been steadily increasing for a while now. So the value of your assets could've dwindled.

When Ent intervenes, that is when prices begin to stabilize again.

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The one thing everybody (except for a post by Ent) seems to be missing on here is the impact of xp.

 

I'm making tons of bear stones right now. I probably BARELY break even on them. Most likely I lose money. And that is with making just about EVERYTHING from scratch. I do pay for silver ore and FPs.

 

But yet I keep making bear stones. Why? Because each one gets me a load of summoning xp, and for some bizzare reason I want summoning levels... :D

 

That's why there is so much supply - it is all the grinding. Schools help out a little, but they have two problems. One is that they are far from storages (even in Glacmor there is a lot of walking back and forth). Another is that when you are able to sell your finished goods - even at a loss - you get more xp/gc than when you lose everything and double the xp.

 

And often the low-level items are the best for grinding in many skills. I'm guessing that even CelticLady is still grinding leather helms. When the top manufacturers in the game are churning out thousands of leather helms in a day, is there any wonder why newbies can't find anybody willing to buy theirs? Especially when only newbies need leather helms in the first place, and probably only 4 of them break in a whole day... :P

 

NPCs that buy solve this problem (infinite demand), but they create inflation (too much easy gold in-game). So it is difficult to balance.

 

In real life nobody makes anything just for the xp - they make stuff to sell it. But, this is a game. No real economy would consist of a group of people where almost 100% of them engage in combat on a regular basis. But we want to have fun, so we do...

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NPCs that buy solve this problem (infinite demand), but they create inflation (too much easy gold in-game). So it is difficult to balance.

 

Leather helms don't bring much gc into the game since most of that gc is spent buying leather and feasting potions.

 

And if you use the schools you have to stop manufacturing stuff every once in awhile and harvest stuff to earn money to buy more ingredients. I can't be bothered with the schools myself.

 

It is difficult to balance. Ent has learned a lot about balancing the economy over the years. Right now the economy is a lot better than it has been at times in the past.

Edited by Puntif

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Supply is high because manufacturing goods only has two barriers to entry:

 

Level

Ingredients

 

Instead of trying to increase these barriers why not try to deter people from manufacturing a certain good when the supply for it is high. This can be done by a VAT system.

 

For example:

 

The amount of bear stones being produced is too high.

Set a VAT of x% on bear stones.

When the supplier now sells his produce for GC he/she will lose x% of the gc gained.

 

Bear stone manufacturers will then think about producing something else and the supply of bear stones will decrease or they will increase the price of there product by x%.

 

The VAT system would only be used when supply for a product is too high.

 

However i think its very unlikely to see this in EL because it would be impossible or extremely hard to program. Since people can do trades like:

 

1k HEs For 7kgc + 1 bone

 

or

 

1k HEs + 1k LEs For 14kgc

 

If the VAT was on HEs then it would be hard to take away the x%. Maybe you would tax the person on the right even if extra goods are introduced as long as gc and he are invovled in the trade.

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Supply is high because manufacturing goods only has two barriers to entry:

 

Level

Ingredients

 

Instead of trying to increase these barriers why not try to deter people from manufacturing a certain good when the supply for it is high. This can be done by a VAT system.

 

For example:

 

The amount of bear stones being produced is too high.

Set a VAT of x% on bear stones.

When the supplier now sells his produce for GC he/she will lose x% of the gc gained.

 

Bear stone manufacturers will then think about producing something else and the supply of bear stones will decrease or they will increase the price of there product by x%.

 

The VAT system would only be used when supply for a product is too high.

 

However i think its very unlikely to see this in EL because it would be impossible or extremely hard to program. Since people can do trades like:

 

1k HEs For 7kgc + 1 bone

 

or

 

1k HEs + 1k LEs For 14kgc

 

If the VAT was on HEs then it would be hard to take away the x%. Maybe you would tax the person on the right even if extra goods are introduced as long as gc and he are invovled in the trade.

With how trading works and ways people could do things, no VAT system could be implemented at this time.

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@Powerwarrior: Not only messing with the trade making it difficult for a VAT system to tax the items, but players could also get around by... lets say a drop trade?

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U gain exp, but there are products when u can gain it too and make money :). I stopped worry about that, just have a price list of products that i make and i wont sell anything under ings costs (only for friends).

Products that are very popular or ppl dont need alot of them sells worse, than ie. air essence. Players if they have a choice says thay can buy something cheapper from someone else, and you reduce price. If they need something and its hard to buy it, u can get better price.

All in all, u can say u buy exp, ppl make lots of health ess for exp and there is no problem to buy it. If u want to level up quickly, just quickly sell HEs and buy silver/pofs. If u need a money, make air essence, less exp - better money.

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serp sword:

 

serp stone = 2,5kgc.

Efe = 6kgc~

2 steel bars + 12 tit bars + 7 fes = ~600gc

 

so around 9kgc for the ings of a serp sword...

i tried buying serp swords for 6k... and it took me goddamn 6 hours to get 1 lol

The main point of tempest's post is to show how long it took to buy an item at a currently reasonable price, correct? (PC result was 7k for tit serp).

<snip>

If you cannot find a fairly common item on the market after 6 hours, this isn't supporting the fact that supply is in excess. That is why, as I said previously, it is due to the amount of players in the market channel, nothing really with the economy of EL.

Forgive me, but if the PC for the serp was 7k, and Temp was offering 6k, and the value of ingreds is 9k, then I am not at all surprised to see it took 6 hours for him to get one. This is much less likely to be due to the amount of bots in the market channel or the relative lack of players, and much more likely the value of ingreds opposed to the offered price.

 

If players are not willing to offer a price which does not lose the seller a couple kgc, then sellers will not be willing to sell.

In saying that though, I can understand Tempest's offer. There are enough players desperate to sell their goods, and they will take below ingreds value price

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