NMT cape breakable, part 2.

[Cyberwulf]

Hmmm..i only fly a bit over all posts in this Tread, but i dont see that someone say this:

 

Ok, 450 capes actual in game and a lot more in a yeahr etc, but i think it comes more and more Player in the Game too, and a lot capes goes out the Game from inactive Players and players who got banned etc. When the number of capes really goes up, the price would not actual by 400-450kgc

 

more capes = lower price

more player who need it = higher price

 

when the price so goes up i think the number of Players goes faster up then the Capes who come in the Game???

 

I hope u all understand me what i will say, better change nothing i think

 

 

good night all

[Entropy]

What sort of price figure would you like them to be at?

How available would you have them be? Should most a/d trainers be able to get them easily enough? etc.

 

Just after a bit more info so those who haven't voted yet can make a more informed vote

 

The price figure would be at around 200-300K (but then again, I don't make those prices), and most serious a/d trainers would be able to get one, but they would break too. Of course, I can't come up with any rates without looking at the breaking stats and stuff like that.

[TirunCollimdus]

I don't think ~250K is going to be workable price for a NMT that breaks unless one of the other options mentioned here also is put in game like the trading cloak to NPC for perk thing. I know 1/80K is very low break rate but bad luck means you can loose more than one quickly and paying 500K for 2 cloaks that did not last a month is not going to be workable IMO. 100K - 200K is the highest I think they should be. I am sure some players think an even lower price would be better.

 

No one IMO is going to trust to luck with that much gold coin on the line. I would rather see the other options like trading the cloak for the perk and buying the perk put in and the cloaks remain unbreakable than see them breakable at that price. I am pretty sure that most would agree.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

[Usl]

I am typically un-bovinesh in my votes, so I would like to understand a little better the current and future situation.

 

The amount of NMTs in game is a function of the rate at which they are introduced (from drops, which is itself a function of: drop rate, # of people training, time they put on training), and the rate at which they are removed (which happens rarely: essentially, by (1)Brod, (2) NMTs left in bags that poof, and (3) NMT rotting in stores of people who have been banned or have left the game).

Given the observation that the number of NMTs in game has been increasing, we have as a fact that, right now, the efficiency of the introducing process is greater than that of the removing process. As for the future, given that more people with NMT often means more people training, and only marginally more people puffing their NMT in DBs and such, I would rather expect the amount to grow even more.

Two related magnitudes of some interest are the number of owner (since the same player can own multiple NMTs), and the number of active NMTs, which is the number of NMTs that actually leave the storage from time to time.

 

The price of NMTs is influenced instead by availability (the offer) and desirability (the demand). Availability is only marginally linked to the number of NMTs in the game: actually, people who have 1 NMT are unlikely to offer it on the market at all; people with two NMTs may offer it, or just keep the second one as backup or for sale at some future time, thus effectively removing it from the market. Hence, only drops from the third onward go to form the available supply. In other words, there is no or little surplus of NMTs. Desirability instead grows constantly: we have all seen relatively "young" characters proudly showing their NMTs, and - frankly - show me a fighter who would not like to have an NMT in store, if s/he doesn't already have one. Since the price is going up, we have (again as a fact) that, right now, desirability is growing faster than availability. As for the future, we might well have more people wanting more fancy stuff, so desirability will probably stay high for the time being. However, if the amounts in game grows faster than the player base, we will eventually hit a point where the surplus becomes significant, everybody has a NMT, and then prices will dramatically decrease (since people has a limited use for multiple NMTs).

 

Now: I could not yet understand whether the goal is to reduce or increase the amount, increase the number of owners (as Radu hinted at) or decrease it (make it a more "elite" item), reduce the price, etc. Depending on what the goal is, there might be other ways to attain it.

 

If the goal is to keep the system in equilibrium -- at any equilibrium point -- it is sufficient to tune the drop rate so that it matches the rate at which NMT owners leave the game: in our case, lower the drop rate. This will produce an equilibrium at low amount, high price, small number of owners, i.e. the elite model.

The proposed alternative, making the NMT breakable, will increase the efficiency of the removing process, once again making for low amount, high price, etc.

Other ways to reach an equilibrium are to reduce desirability: for example, by requiring a high nexus to wear the cape (this could be increased piecewise in the course of several updates), in keeping with what happened to the Artificier Cape, or by reducing the effectiveness of the cape (e.g., moving from 1/4 to 1/3 or 1/2 of the original chance for breaking items). Also, other kind of handicaps could be introduced (e.g., stop restoring health and mana while wearing the cape, just to make up a crazy example). In such case, the equilibrium is at relatively high amounts, low price, low number of owners: but the system is stable nevertheless.

Of course, there is also the marginal case where availability is increased, by increasing drop rate, desireability stays high, and so we get an equilibrium where there is an huge and increased amount of capes in game, but everybody already has one or more, so excess cape are useless and possibly are sold to a NPC: in other words, high amounts, low price, high number of owners. This is what happened with certain drop books, which are so common that they are more an hindrance and are essentially given away, or with wooden hammers and such.

 

Any of these solutions will keep the system in equilibrium; which one is preferable, I would gladly leave to someone with more experience in managing the game, Ent being a good candidate for that role.

 

 

From a different point of view, though, the NMT is meant to work like a Rostogol or a Saving Stone - namely, as an insurance against unpleasant events (dropping stuff for Rostogols, failing mixes for Saving, and of course breakages for NMTs). The huge, and in my view untenable in the long run, difference is that for Rostogols and Saving stones there is a price to pay for every time the insurance is triggered: you loose the stone. For NMTs, there is a lump payment (~400Kgc these days), and then it will save your ass back an unlimited number of times, which is the root cause of evil here.

So, changing the NMT so that it has a certain "power level" which decreases with every averted breakage, and then finally breaks when that level reaches 0 (notice that the value of the item will also fall as the cape degrade) would make the NMT more alike the other form if insurances we already have.

There is of course an issue with current owners, especially those that have bought the cape at the current high prices. One could just shugger off the issue, keep the current NMTs are they are, reduce the drop rate to next to 0 (or 0), and introduce some kind of "NMT stones" which work like saving stones. Alternatively, one could have an NPC buying NMTs for some reasonable amount (250-300Kgc?) so there could be some form of partial "refund". Of course, "NMT stones" should cost a reasonable amount, considering that they would avert breakage once only each.

 

What is my vote, you may ask? Well, can't you figure it from my thoughts above? No? Neither can I

Edited November 8, 2007 by Usl

[robotbob]

...

No one IMO is going to trust to luck with that much gold coin on the line.

...

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

Well The Titanium Serpent Sword of Thermal is an example. It costs more

and If mine breaks I will buy another. It gives too much of an advantage in pk to not own one.

 

So perhaps a NMT will just be a training equal, in cost & risk.

 

edit: typo

Edited November 8, 2007 by robotbob

[Kidberg]

Imo, The Thermal serp and the nmt are two way different things to compare each other too. You dont use a thermal serp near as much as nmt therefore lowering the chance to break it compared to the nmt.

[TirunCollimdus]

...

No one IMO is going to trust to luck with that much gold coin on the line.

...

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

Well The Titanium Serpent Sword of Thermal is an example. It costs more

and If mine breaks I will buy another. It gives too much of an advantage in pk to not own one.

 

So perhaps a NMT will just be a training equal, in cost & risk.

 

edit: typo

 

The problem with that line of thought is that currently the NMT cloak does not have any risk other than BRoD and that is only PK not in training. If the NMT were a new item then you might see people with that attitude. The problem is that the gear be protected in most cases does not cost anywhere near 500K. In my example you would be out 500K and 2 cloaks and your stuff would be breaking as normal.

 

The advantage of using a NMT is saving you money not in killing people. That is why it is not even remotely the same. Your example does not work for this topic in any way.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

[bkc56]

... the rate at which they are removed (which happens rarely: essentially, by (1) NMTs left in bags that poof, and (2) NMT rotting in stores of people who have left the game).

At least two other exit cases I can think of are: acid rain, and BroD.

[Usl]

... the rate at which they are removed (which happens rarely: essentially, by (1) NMTs left in bags that poof, and (2) NMT rotting in stores of people who have left the game).

At least two other exit cases I can think of are: acid rain, and BroD.

Right, I was editing the post to add Brod while you were writing this . I think I'll abstain from adding acid rain now - thanks for the correction.

[Entropy]

USL, those are very valid points.

However, the current supply of NMTs is not just a factor of the current drop rate, it is also a factor of the previous drop rate, which was considerably higher.

 

One other problem is that even though I have some really good ideas on how to fix things, people hate the change, and as you've seen in this very thread (and many others), they blow every little shit totally out of proportion.

I had the 'rostogols for broken equipment stones' idea for quite a while ago, but I gave up on it because pretty much everyone now (and I am talking about the a/d trainers) has one.

 

Then there is the problem that the way NMT works right now, very few lucky people make lots of money when they find one. My goal was that instead of one player making 400K, 2 or 3 players make 400k (combined). So more happy people in the long run.

[breTRYano]

i have a nmt and i like this either way it goes, a plus is, more nmt drops and a bad thing is theirs a 1\80,000 chance that my nmt breaks

 

i voted yes to it becomein breakable simply because i like "change"

 

edit:players makeing this a hard decission huh ent? 50/50

Edited November 8, 2007 by breTRYano

[TirunCollimdus]

Well I was posting to say that 3 making 400K would probably go well with most players. I now have to add though after talking with Icy that perhaps we should make them makable. How about NMT cloaks can be made at level 60 tailoring. Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence. Then they could break and be replaced with a price that is somewhat based on ingredient cost and rarity based on lack of tailors who can make them. Break rate to be determined. I know this is way off the current ideas but what the hey since cooperation does not seem to be the key.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

[Rhapsodist]

voted yes to spite those who paid 400k+ for one

 

but seriously though i understand ents point no item can remain unbreakable in a continuous game without a sink

 

making it 1/80k is completely reasonable imo good idea

 

edit - why delay the inevitable? might as well get the good changes earleir on so u can adjust your char to the changes (get the perk, adjust p/c, etc)

Edited November 8, 2007 by aLauDa

[sywren]

Voted YES. I do agree that items that serve an ingame purpose should be degradable. (Vanity items like tiaras don't serve any purpose and are an exception...whoops! Did I bring that up again? )

Edited November 8, 2007 by sygon

[korrode]

How about NMT cloaks can be made at level 60 tailoring. Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales*, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence.

*40 cockatrice feathers.

Would be a good use for them...

 

sorry for off-topicness

[TirunCollimdus]

How about NMT cloaks can be made at level 60 tailoring. Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales*, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence.

*40 cockatrice feathers.

Would be a good use for them...

 

sorry for off-topicness

 

Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence, and 40 cockatrice feathers.

 

My apologies for wandering out there again but the proposed change was far too easy. It is better with all of the above.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

[MistickIce]

How about NMT cloaks can be made at level 60 tailoring. Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales*, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence.

*40 cockatrice feathers.

Would be a good use for them...

 

sorry for off-topicness

 

Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence, and 40 cockatrice feathers.

 

My apologies for wandering out there again but the proposed change was far too easy. It is better with all of the above.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

I like it as well. And I totally agree much better with the 40 cockatrice feathers added to the rest.

 

Sorry off topic.

Just had to agree

 

 

__Icy__

 

:Edit Typo:

Edited November 8, 2007 by Icy

[Zamirah]

 

Then there is the problem that the way NMT works right now, very few lucky people make lots of money when they find one. My goal was that instead of one player making 400K, 2 or 3 players make 400k (combined). So more happy people in the long run.

So not only fluffys/feran/yeti should drop them ?

I have got more than 10 NMT without killing many fluffys/ferans/yetis. And I know people who killed a lot more without getting any or only few.

 

I had 5 in my storage some time ago, got some in in very few days but sold, why save them if they don't break.

Breakable, I would not sell any but save to replace the broken.

And if they are going to be cheap, why sell them ?

 

So it would still be a question of luck.

[conavar]

I don't think ~250K is going to be workable price for a NMT that breaks unless one of the other options mentioned here also is put in game like the trading cloak to NPC for perk thing. I know 1/80K is very low break rate but bad luck means you can loose more than one quickly and paying 500K for 2 cloaks that did not last a month is not going to be workable IMO. 100K - 200K is the highest I think they should be. I am sure some players think an even lower price would be better.

 

 

 

How about NMT cloaks can be made at level 60 tailoring. Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales*, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence.

*40 cockatrice feathers.

Would be a good use for them...

 

sorry for off-topicness

 

Expensive ingredients like 10 saving stones, 5 black and 5 red dragon scales, an enriched life essence and an enriched death essence, and 40 cockatrice feathers.

 

 

Dont the ingrediants add up to more than a workable 250k though ?

 

 

edit: and on reading Ents post about :

"My goal was that instead of one player making 400K, 2 or 3 players make 400k (combined). So more happy people in the long run."

 

are there to many NMT ingame or not enough ?

and with increased drop rates whats better 450 unbreakable capes ingame or 900 semi-breakable capes ?

Edited November 8, 2007 by conavar

[Columba]

Moving goal posts are not a good idea.

[UzbRUS]

IF

 

Breakage NMT in case of full protection against breakages of the weapon and armor.

Ignoring of an astrology, on breakage, at use NMT.

Cost NMT should not be high.

Can NPC will start to sell for 150k NMT?

 

THEN YES

ELSE NO

[Blodoks]

I voted yes.

 

Atm I'm harvesting titanium and I see this:

 

The poll is so balanced... maybe a compromise solution:

NMT breakable if you wear COL

A chance for helms too...

Edited November 8, 2007 by Blodoks

[Michic0_oL]

 

The poll is so balanced... maybe a compromise solution:

NMT breakable if you wear COL

A chance for helms too...

or a com perhaps ?

 

 

anyway true, we mostly use col... but imagine some pking with like 140hp with no cd on sr and stuff ?? u get hit sometimes @80 ...

80 + damage ring + harm and u dead :]

Edited November 8, 2007 by Michic0_oL

[masterpiter]

My goal was that instead of one player making 400K, 2 or 3 players make 400k (combined). So more happy people in the long run.

I noticed that too, it seemed kinda unfair, and pissed me off like crazy( had to swear on Nitager's pm ) when i went to dragons at best astro, killed few, degraded tit shield, died 2 times and in the same time c_ronaldo found 2 nmt in yetis so like 850k gc for him+ gold drops of coz

 

Even tho i votded NO for breakable nmt.

If it will be breakable im taking the nmt perk, coz i break enough on yetis/dragons anyways( no, i dont train on them, i just try to make some ca$h when im lucky and i get yeti-spawn or got best astro so enough to gamble with my rostos/armors/weapon on dragons and make decent profit ).

 

With breakable nmt it would be very much luck-depended, not only if u find it but also how long u can have it.

Game "decides" ur no longer good enough for the nmt and whoopsie, it degrades, if u r not lucky it might happen often (Yes, as u can see im not the biggest fan of random items-breaking, but well, nobody is perfect )

 

I know its not the place for that but cant we have something like "usage" of items, so we know when they break and also some way to repair/restore them( preferably manuers to repair weapons/armors and crafters to repair CoL/MoL)?

 

mp

[WiseGemmerKat]

I don't think the NMT cloak should break coz of it's protection against ather breakable armor.

 

What's the NMT perks vallue going to be if the nmt cloak is breakable? What persentage is the perk going to have on the long run? Less than it's now?

 

That's just my point of view.