Rehdon Report post Posted September 16, 2007 Hi all, at the present moment the magic skill is one of the hardest to master and to progress in. A quick search on the forum shows that a) people would very much like the skill to be improved and expanded usually people think of expanding it by adding more (specific) spells. Indeed the pure mage character (but also the warrior-mage combination) is conspicuosly absent from the game, and that's a real shame. I'd like to suggest a simple way to enhance the magic system by adding a very small number of sigils, so that it would be worthwile for a player to specialize in the magic arts. First of all, the current magic is very well thought out and flexibile: basically you need the combination of one or more sigils and a handful of ingredients to cast a good number of spells. You could take advantage of this "modular" spell composition to create an extremely flexible pool of attack/defense spells. This is how it'd work: 1. Add a small number of "object" sigils You can add more later on, of course, but even adding only two (initially) would be more than enough for the purpose of revamping the magic sub-system. Let's say these sigils represent the "ideal", magical form of some every day objects, a sort of empty container that could be filled with different types of magic energy. The initial object sigils would be: arrow and wall. 2. Define the basic spell pattern New spells using these sigils would take this form: ACTION + OBJECT + ELEMENT So using the Create Wall Fire would result in casting a Wall of fire spell, Create Arrow Fire in a Fire arrow spell, Remove (or Destroy) Wall Fire would cause the destruction of a fire wall created by someone else, and so on. Not all combination might be desirable or effective, in the which case the spell simply wouldn't be possible. Note that use of elemental attack/defense spells would fit in very well with new, elemental-based creatures: you'd use a wall/arrow of water (well, assuming it'd turn in ice of course against a salamander of fire, or fire arrows against ice creatures like Yetis, etc. 3. Define advanced spell patterns If the system works, it could be expanded very effectively simply by making possible more complex patterns. That could mean using some of the other existing sigils: ACTION + CONDITION + OBJECT + ELEMENT You could then have a Temporary wall of fire, which would last only a few minutes and cost less than a Permanent wall of fire, that f.i. could last until the caster leaves the map or another wizard dispells it. Another possibility could be that of combining more than object: ACTION + OBJECT + ELEMENT + OBJECT Using Create Wall Fire Arrow would create a wall of burning arrows, for instance. 4. Define specific effects for object sigils You'd have to define how wide a magic wall should be, for instance, and the damage it would inflict to those trying to bypass it. Also specify how "temporary" is Temporary, etc. 5. Define spell cost So far every spell has a specific cost, I'd propose that the cost be the sum of single sigils used: this way, the more complicated and powerful the spell, the more mana points you have to burn. Another criterium could be the position in the spell pattern: the second sigil would cost more than the first, the third more than the second, and so on. 6. Define spell ingredients This one should be pretty straightforward: energy and/or matter essences for the objects, fire essence for fire etc. Again, particularly complex spell would require a larger number of ingredients. That's the basic idea, hope you like it. Expanding the magic system this way would allow for the birth of a true mage PC. Combined with the new graphical effects, the new spells would look gorgeous: I would love to see the graphical implementation of a Wall of poisoned blades, or a Torrent of ice darts, and the like... Rehdon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mojar Report post Posted September 17, 2007 I think the idea sounds good. When I first started EL I wanted to be a mage, but to me magery is only effective when paired with attack and defense. I would like to see some simple attack and defense spells added. Spells that new characters could use to actually fight with like; fireball, iceball, stun, etc. I think a system like this would be a great edition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agis29 Report post Posted September 17, 2007 (edited) I agree that magic should become more important. All spells should be level based including the duration of spells like magic immunity. Edited September 17, 2007 by agis29 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rehdon Report post Posted September 17, 2007 I think the idea sounds good. When I first started EL I wanted to be a mage, but to me magery is only effective when paired with attack and defense. I would like to see some simple attack and defense spells added. Spells that new characters could use to actually fight with like; fireball, iceball, stun, etc. I think a system like this would be a great edition. Adding a suitable object sigil, let's call it Ball, you could have that kind of spells simply using Create Fire|Water|Air|Earth|Energy Ball: first two give you fireball and iceball spells, using Air you could produce a tornado, using Earth a rock fall, an electrical storm with Energy, etc. Using a Time sigil you could cast your spell and have it go off after a specific period of time: imagine casting a fireball and then having it explode among the mob of angry pkers who're chasing you Another possibility (using the Matter sigil?) would be to "imprison" a spell in a magical stone, so that someone else could use the stone and cast it with the power of the mage who created the stone, very much like people use summoning stones. You could imagine magical runes engraved on the stones, so let's call them Rune stones Again, the devs patience and imagination is the limit. The system could be kept in check by the mana requirements: more powerful spells should cost a lot, to the point that some of them could only be cast with the help of a Crown of Mana (whose usefulness would get a boost, I'm sure). Rehdon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mojar Report post Posted September 17, 2007 If the new system is going to be able to put spells into stones I think it should allow spells to be put into wands and rings. They could have charges and when the charges are used up the disappear or become useless. I would say that the spells would have to be cast at the users level not the level of the mage that made them. And the mana would be taken out of the person that used the ring/wand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marcvs Report post Posted September 17, 2007 [...] Another possibility (using the Matter sigil?) would be to "imprison" a spell in a magical stone, so that someone else could use the stone and cast it with the power of the mage who created the stone, very much like people use summoning stones. You could imagine magical runes engraved on the stones, so let's call them Rune stones [...] this could be very nice! they can be "manufacturable" like the summoning stones. To make a Rune Stones, for example, you might have to first manufacture an hosting undifferentiated stone (that can be done with engineering or crafting, I don't know), in wich, with a magical enchantment, can be burned in with the requested spell. Of course this enchantment have to be stronger that the spell that you would to burn in the stone. It will also be pretty to have a "slow poison" or a "remove poison" spell, like there is the "poison" spell as well. It could be much complicated, but, for the coherence, can be more funny, that the chance to make a magical enchanted object (an iron sword of fire, for example, or a CoL, but not a normal iron sword or a polished emerald) will be related to the magic level of the manufacturer/crafter. Or only that without a certain level of magic you cannot manufacture some objects. Marcvs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Troger Report post Posted September 17, 2007 I'd say no rune stones pls. and maybe not ball or arrow or wall...only shape, and dependent on your lvl and luck you would make different things with one single spell! Troger League of Groovy Gentlemen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shujral Report post Posted September 17, 2007 Another possibility (using the Matter sigil?) would be to "imprison" a spell in a magical stone, so that someone else could use the stone and cast it with the power of the mage who created the stone, very much like people use summoning stones. You could imagine magical runes engraved on the stones, so let's call them Rune stones Rehdon Restore stones? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rehdon Report post Posted September 18, 2007 I'd say no rune stones pls. and maybe not ball or arrow or wall...only shape, and dependent on your lvl and luck you would make different things with one single spell! Neat idea! Let's have totally random effects, no real new spell and a chance to blow up every item in the caster inventory! I'm sure that would greatly expand and enhance the magic skill as lots of people have been asking Rehdon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rehdon Report post Posted September 18, 2007 Restore stones? Nope, magical stones similar to summoning stones: the mage casts a spell on a stone, a rune-like[1] symbol is engraved on the stone (so that you can distinguish among different stones) and another character can use the stone to cast the spell. Again, like summoning stones it doesn't matter if the spell is way beyond the magical abilities of the PC using the stone. Rehdon [1] Runes were the original alphabet of the Germanic peoples, their origin is not fully known but we know that they were linked to magic practices. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rune]the Wikipedia page on runes[/url]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trollson Report post Posted September 18, 2007 (edited) See Also: "Virtual Items". Edited February 14, 2008 by trollson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
majestyk Report post Posted September 18, 2007 (edited) Just out of curiosity - did you ever play Worlds of Legend - Son of the Empire ? Your suggestions are very close to how magic was working there. That magic system was one of the best systems I ever encountered. It basically had the same elements like those you mentioned: direction, duration, and form modifiers, as well as "action" components. And you could combine them completely free... really awesome. My favourites were similar to this: - arrow, antimagic, damage,damage,damage - surround,damage,damage,damage,arrow,damage,damage,damage - arrow, resurrect, restoration, protection - surround, permanent, antimagic, damage, damage, damage If you combine surround with arrow, you'd have arrows going out in 8 directions, while surround itself would only be directly adjacent to you. Arrow was available in two forms, directed and undirected. Antimagic would remove magic immunity/protection from the target, and every modifier could be stacked for stronger effect (like multiple damages). Not saying that we should have all that in here, but it was really fun experimenting with different combinations, and that was a flexibility I never saw again. The game might even be abandonware in the meantime, if it is I can provide a good savegame Edit: This page even has loads of screenshots and a box scan Edited September 18, 2007 by majestyk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rehdon Report post Posted September 18, 2007 See Also: "Virtual Items". Nice idea, I guess my "rune stones" proof of concept falls in the general category you described. Alhtough my inspiration comes from traditional, pen and paper RPG games (where you can have parchments, rings etc. to allow non-magic users to cast spells) and, wrt EL, from summoning stones (in fact they would be perfect equivalent for the magic skill). Rehdon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rehdon Report post Posted September 18, 2007 Just out of curiosity - did you ever play Worlds of Legend - Son of the Empire ? Your suggestions are very close to how magic was working there. That magic system was one of the best systems I ever encountered. It basically had the same elements like those you mentioned: direction, duration, and form modifiers, as well as "action" components. And you could combine them completely free... really awesome. Nope, although I seem to remember something going back to the times when I still used an Amiga ... My suggestions are derived from a pen, paper and dice RPG I created with a friend of mine (Usl, who else? ) out of dissatisfaction with the original D&D game. We wanted it to be classless (in particular we always disliked tying classes to races as original D&D proposed and imposed, bleah!), with a simpler fighting mechanism (only 10 sided dice for everything, in a single throw you could determine if you'd wounded you opponent and by how much) and a more complex magic framework. In actual use, it worked quite well, and mages were not the "jettison until you need them" of the party. Most important, we felt very much more "free" to pursue and explore our inclinations. This is true to an extent for EL as well: classless, nice fighting mechanism, nice potential for the magic system (very similar to the one we wrote). Hope it will receive more attention in the (near) future Rehdon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trollson Report post Posted September 18, 2007 (edited) Nice idea, I guess my "rune stones" proof of concept falls in the general category you described. Alhtough my inspiration comes from traditional, pen and paper RPG gamesDitto. One interpretation of the virtual items concept is that it represents "memorised spells" ala D&D; while trying to fit into EL's model and implementation. What I have looked for is magic users to work as dangerous characters in their own right, when played intelligently. See this anecdote on a medium powered mage devastating an "uber" party from t'ol'days. Edited September 18, 2007 by trollson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
draegox Report post Posted September 22, 2007 I am always for more spells, and this seems like a great idea. (I am training to be a gray mage—a magic-user that can kill or heal in the blink of an eye—so I am especially interested in this sort of development.)But one thing I don't like about the current magic system is that all the high-level PKers can cast whatever spell they want; there's no choice to be made, no nexus to choose from, no attributes that boost a player's magical prowess. And in my humble opinion, that should change. And one more point about the magic stones, though: They need to be spells that you could cast on your own, that way a newb couldn't teleport to the Irilionian Portal Room whenever they wanted. But other than that, great idea! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ville-v Report post Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) I agree that magic should become more important. All spells should be level based including the duration of spells like magic immunity. Instead of duration, let it be effect. Percentage to dodge offensive spell could be same as Magic skill (30% at recommend level, 100% at level 100). On the other hand, ethereality should affect the power of spells, so somebody who spends pps to be mage will be stronger than somebody who simply trains the skill. Edited September 22, 2007 by ville-v Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GarfieldClown Report post Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) What I am gonne say here has been said before, but not completely in the way I am typing now. Strong fighters got high magic (almost all of them) Let 'fighters'-armour be with a magic casting penalty (-1, -2, -3, higher penalty per higher armour, and it all adds up under #arms) this way spells of people wearing let's say tit armour, will be less effective than people wearing leather. Further-more, let's add more mage cloth stuff (suggested before) wich all give magic spell casting benefits, greater strength in the spells, larger effect/duration, less mana used, etc.! This way a fighter has to rely more on his a/d and less on his magic level and a Mage can use his magic spells more effectively ... Edited September 25, 2007 by GarfieldClown Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Troger Report post Posted September 25, 2007 What I am gonne say here has been said before, but not completely in the way I am typing now. Strong fighters got high magic (almost all of them) Let 'fighters'-armour be with a magic casting penalty (-1, -2, -3, higher penalty per higher armour, and it all adds up under #arms) this way spells of people wearing let's say tit armour, will be less effective than people wearing leather. Further-more, let's add more mage cloth stuff (suggested before) wich all give magic spell casting benefits, greater strength in the spells, larger effect/duration, less mana used, etc.! This way a fighter has to rely more on his a/d and less on his magic level and a Mage can use his magic spells more effectively ... That would only be true if there wasent a spell call magic immunity. Everybody who enters pk is casting this spell without this you will be mana draind in seconds. You cant win a fight only with magic. Troger League of Groovy Gentlemen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
draegox Report post Posted September 28, 2007 That would only be true if there wasent a spell call magic immunity. Everybody who enters pk is casting this spell without this you will be mana draind in seconds. You cant win a fight only with magic. Troger League of Groovy Gentlemen This is what I would like to change. We need some sort of mag immu breaker, so that the mage-warrior has a real place in the game. I know people have been pushing for this ever since that spell was created, but it's still a good idea. Another possibility is the Spell of Physical Immunity, which I consider to be a very good idea, especially the part about choosing phys imm or magic imm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Troger Report post Posted September 28, 2007 This is what I would like to change. We need some sort of mag immu breaker, so that the mage-warrior has a real place in the game. I know people have been pushing for this ever since that spell was created, but it's still a good idea. Another possibility is the Spell of Physical Immunity, which I consider to be a very good idea, especially the part about choosing phys imm or magic imm. If that spell would be added you could fight whatever monster you want... Then again the mage would be in a situation like: 1. he casts physical immunity, the fighter casts magic immunity. 2. the fighter engages the mage in close combat. 3. then the fighter with magic will kill the mage, isen't it wierd??? Troger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterpiter Report post Posted September 28, 2007 Troger is right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ville-v Report post Posted September 29, 2007 This is what I would like to change. We need some sort of mag immu breaker, so that the mage-warrior has a real place in the game. I know people have been pushing for this ever since that spell was created, but it's still a good idea. Another possibility is the Spell of Physical Immunity, which I consider to be a very good idea, especially the part about choosing phys imm or magic imm. If that spell would be added you could fight whatever monster you want... Then again the mage would be in a situation like: 1. he casts physical immunity, the fighter casts magic immunity. 2. the fighter engages the mage in close combat. 3. then the fighter with magic will kill the mage, isen't it wierd??? Troger Remove the magic immunity spell then. Or make it so that ethereality affects percentage of blocked spells. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeone3000 Report post Posted September 29, 2007 Unless the mage kills the fighter with brute force. It's another bit of strategy. Removing magic immunity is another good option, and have shield and magic protection scale like the rest of the spells in intensity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterpiter Report post Posted September 30, 2007 For all those that never pked vs any1 with decent pk skills( im not taking about a/d lvls but about pk skills, so fast draining/harming etc) and suggest removing of mag immune: Standard fight w/o mag immune will be VERY short, cooldown on srs is pretty big now, so if u fight vs stronger opponent u need to restore+ mana drain him. The thing is: stronger opponent need to only mana drain u + he wont use restore or very rarely, it means he will mana drain+harm+mana drain again+harm+mana drain again+harm and now here probnably end of each fight. So 10-15 seconds at max if weaker person uses extra mana pots, in most cases even shorter. R u ppl sure thats what we need? mp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites