Ateh Report post Posted September 25, 2007 Whats the differance between a DB with 15 gc in it and some cheap leather armor ( OOH MAYBE AN IRON SOWRD !! ) and a hyperbag with 15k silver ore and 15k FE ? Just one. The first one is left by accident by a misfortunate person that managed to die. The second one is left on purpose in high-traffic area to make ones mixing easier. Old saying. No risk-no gain. You leave such stuff in hyperbag, stop whining when you lose it. I dont think anyones whining as such, I think we are just saying that just as someone has the right to '' Treasure Hunt '' for hyper bags, so we have the right to call them bagjumpers for wishing to do so. I suppose there was never going to be a huge shake hands and agreement on this subject. But in all fairness bagjumping , scamming is part of the game, so we should expect it. And i suppose from the posts in this thread, we have a better idea who to expect it from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoI Report post Posted September 26, 2007 imo its still bagjumping even if someone is going "treasure hunting", its still intentionally looking for a bag someone else worked for and taking whats inside when it isnt yours. sounds like bagjumping to me anyways just my opinion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matty27 Report post Posted September 26, 2007 <Answer-to-poll-question-as-worded> After a lot of thought, considering the way the question is worded - I had to vote yes. </Answer-to-poll-question-as-worded> <opinion> My personal values would stop me taking the entire contents of a bag I happened to merge into another, already sent, HB. I also wouldn't go actively looking for HBs anywhere either, unless I thought I had mismarked the spot and was trying to find the one I had created. The same personal values noted above would make me re-lock any other HB I found doing that I would probably be very angry if someone took the contents of a HB I had made, as some have been quite large in the past and have taken me a lot of work. @Blee: If you do come across a large HB and have your evil head on, just take the contents and use/sell as you decide, don't let all the effort in making the bag go completely to waste by poofing it. Please. As noted previously by both Blee and Chosen - I am part of the community but I don't always agree with every post quoting "the community", so don't talk for me (that's a first, I just agreed with an opinion voiced by Chosen! ) The term "community rules" is slightly misleading... <snip> I prefer the term "community morals" ... <snip> Snipped because there is no need to quote the lot. Totally agree with the point made Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grimnir Report post Posted September 26, 2007 I voted 'no'. To me, bag jumping is not merely taking a bag that doesn't belong to you, otherwise anyone cleaning up bones on IP would be a bag jumper. The way I see it, bag jumping involves taking advantage of someone else's misfortune and I just don't see this being the case with bags that people deliberately leave as a matter of convenience. This doesn't mean I see raiding around for these bags as 'right', it just means I don't see it in the same light as bag jumping. It's like stealing a bicycle that's simply been hidden from public view, versus waiting around for someone to get hit by a bus so you can snatch whatever might fall off. Neither appeals to me, but I can say that I do find one to be worse than the other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ateh Report post Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) Someone else has mentioned this on page one of this thread but i want to make it clearer and expand upon it ...... In the Outlaws Forum on the main page, there is a description for who should go into the forum. It says '' Bag Stealers '' So, unless they are going to change that description of the outlaws forum I cannot see how anyone can say taking a hyper bag is OK. Because your stealing it right ? Your taking someone elses work ? Something you havent done or made, something that isnt yours. So it makes sense to me that as the descriptin in Outlaws is pretty damned straight forward when it says '' Bag Stealers '' , that would pretty much go to explain that stealing hyper bags should get you in the Outlaws forum ( if your caught doing so of course and theres GOOD HARD evidence ). So then, not meaning to sound all pompus, but will someone from the ''its ok to do it '' side of this hyper bag discussion now come back and tell us all why you shouldnt be posted in a forum specifically designed to bring to the attention of the community '' Bag Stealers '' . Please and thank you aTeh * edit * typos Edited September 26, 2007 by Ateh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted September 26, 2007 Post me as a bag stealer please! I've voted for "No". I volunteer to be the first bag stealer ^^ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ateh Report post Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) So it makes sense to me that as the descriptin in Outlaws is pretty damned straight forward when it says '' Bag Stealers '' , that would pretty much go to explain that stealing hyper bags should get you in the Outlaws forum ( if your caught doing so of course and theres GOOD HARD evidence ). Didnt really mean that anyone who voted its ok in this thread should be posted in outlaws for being a bag stealer, i just meant that people who wish to steal hyperbags shouldnt be surprised when they get posted in Outlaws. Sorry if you thaught i was accusing you of doing it Kheres, that was not my intention ! *edit* not accusing individuals ( see bold lettering ) Edited September 26, 2007 by Ateh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grimnir Report post Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) It says '' Bag Stealers ''I've also read (quoted below) that once you put something in a bag, it's no longer 'yours' - stealing isn't just taking something that doesn't belong to you, it's taking something that belongs to someone else. If the bag doesn't technically (by the rules, not by community values or common sense) belong to anyone, then it's harder to claim theft. One reason why I see a difference between hyperbags and deathbags is because with hyperbags, you choose what you put in them - you choose to take a risk, and choose what you risk. The server will NEVER take any action against someone taking a bag. by design, the moment you put something in a bag it is not considered yours anymore. A bag is not intented for storage or safe keeping ... it is just stuff sitting there. *edited to fix quote Edited September 26, 2007 by Grimnir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ateh Report post Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) I give up, theft is theft. *edit* deleted what i originally said because it became obvious Learner has made far to many posts that can be used to quote and justify hyperbag theft not that he intentionally does so * sigh * Edited September 26, 2007 by Ateh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grimnir Report post Posted September 26, 2007 LOL - if you read an attempt at justification either in my posts in this thread, or in the lines I quoted from Learner, then you should really go back and re-read a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caecus Report post Posted September 26, 2007 It says '' Bag Stealers ''I've also read (quoted below) that once you put something in a bag, it's no longer 'yours' - stealing isn't just taking something that doesn't belong to you, it's taking something that belongs to someone else. If the bag doesn't technically (by the rules, not by community values or common sense) belong to anyone, then it's harder to claim theft. One reason why I see a difference between hyperbags and deathbags is because with hyperbags, you choose what you put in them - you choose to take a risk, and choose what you risk. The server will NEVER take any action against someone taking a bag. by design, the moment you put something in a bag it is not considered yours anymore. A bag is not intented for storage or safe keeping ... it is just stuff sitting there. *edited to fix quote A couple of questions for you Grimnir: What if you were mining with a bag and got teleported off of it? Also, don't you technically choose what you put in your deathbag (or potentially put in there)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grimnir Report post Posted September 26, 2007 A couple of questions for you Grimnir:What if you were mining with a bag and got teleported off of it? Also, don't you technically choose what you put in your deathbag (or potentially put in there)? I see going after someone's mining bag somewhat more closely related to bag jumping than raiding hyperbags, since again it's taking advantage of someone else's misfortune. However, when I set a bag down for mining or harvesting cotton or whatnot, I do so with the understanding that I might lose what goes into that bag - if I do, I don't raise hell about it. I usually don't put anything into a bag that I can't harvest or make again. It doesn't mean I'm happy about losing stuff, and it doesn't mean I feel like it's okay to go snatch other peoples' bags - it just means I understand that this is a risky part of how the game works. Your question about choosing what goes into a deathbag is an interesting one. Ultimately, I guess we do choose what goes into db's - this is part of the reason why I don't run around with stuff I can't regain with relative ease. At the same time, though, this level of choice is still much less direct than actually putting stuff in a hyperbag or mining bag, and doesn't negate the difference I pointed out about the taking advantage of someone's rotten luck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tordek Report post Posted September 27, 2007 Funny to see so many immature and incoherent opinions . It is a generally accepted (by the EL community) fact that if you train on a monster and die you loose the spawning place because you could not keep it. However most of these players who play by this unwritten rule say that if you can not keep your stuff because you die or because you decide so, than you can still claim those items. I say, come on, this is hillarious. You must see the similarity between those two. As far as i know, the true meaning of bagjumping is originating from the good ol' times when safe-trade (storage trade) was not possible. That meant if two guys wanted to exchange goods greater than their respective capacities they needed to put the trade-good in bags and and "exchanged" their bags. Bagjumpers were called those people who had good reflexes and jumped or tried to jump on the tradebags. Yes, those people were thiefs and there were many of them and they were the main reason storage-trade was introduced. The first version of the storage trade was not the version we have today as people with fast reflexes could still scam, however any third-party interference was eliminated. Ok, history class is over . Tordek, a retired fellow. P.S. Maybe you guys could lobby for a password-protected version of the hyperspace-bag. I'm sure it wouldn't take Entropy more than a couple of hours to create it on the server-side. However, don't mention to him that password-protected hyperspace bags could be abused to create custom storages anywhere you want as i doubt he would like the idea Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grimnir Report post Posted September 27, 2007 As far as i know, the true meaning of bagjumping is originating from the good ol' times ....Very cool, Tordek - I never actually knew the history behind this volatile topic (or the origin of storage, for that matter) until this morning - thanks for the illumination Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
