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Tarnbriar

Active Hyperbag "Treasure Hunts"

Is intentional hyperbag stealing bagjumping?  

199 members have voted

  1. 1. If someone actively searched for your hyperbag then intentionally opened it without your permission and took the things you left there, would you consider that bagjumping?

    • Yes
      108
    • No
      91


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If a bag is no ones property cant be stolen :( This is the only thing that you miss guys...If you leave something on the ground by your decission, and you are not forced to do so, that thing doesent belong to you anymore, so it cant be stolen... :omg:

And Anshar was refering that, if the "community" keeps making rules after rules all el player ends up or in the outlaws or they will be saits ...

with days pas not refreshing a bag on the ground will be outlawery too, with these same arguments : "How could you let poof somebodies hard work?"

 

Nobody has ever asked you to play this game whatever way he wants ...

 

 

Troger

Proud member of League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

edit: As you can see not only Entropy sees this way...there is a big amount of players that thinks this way too, why would you think that they dont have right to make as they want, without marking them with outlawery???

There is something in your siggy that doesent makes sence with what are you stating TirunCollimdus, this sentence:"Tolerance is the capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others."

Edited by Troger

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There is something in your siggy that doesent makes sence with what are you stating TirunCollimdus, this sentence:"Tolerance is the capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others."

 

Respect isn't the same as agreeing.

 

:(

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If a bag is no ones property cant be stolen :( This is the only thing that you miss guys...
I disagree that its no ones property, when someone puts stuff in a HB they want it to be there when they get back. They're not disregarding the items in the way a person would when they flick a cigarette butt out into the street.

 

The stuffs not yours.

Its not left in plain sight.

Someone else mined/made it, not you.

You are depriving someone else of the fruits of their labor.

I dont care if they left those fruits somewhere insecure.

They didn't disregard them, and they intend to return for them.

 

If you still dont get it, i dont care, i've wasted enough key presses here already.

 

I used to read Outlaws alot, every post pretty much, but...

...I grew tired of listening to scammers try to justify their actions with their own opinion and the game rules.

...I grew tired of listening to deathbag jumpers try to justify their actions with their own opinion and the game rules.

...And i've grown tired of you trying to justify HBjumping with your own opinion and the game rules.

 

As the vote stands now, the majority (even if it is barely the majority) have deemed HB taking as an Outlaw act. Unless that vote changes, thats how it is.

 

I'm done with this thread.

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Let's turn the words other way around:

 

...And i've grown tired of you trying to justify HBjumping with your own opinion and the game rules.

 

I've grown tired of you trying to create more and more 'community rules' to justify your claming that this or that is against it.

 

As the vote stands now, the majority (even if it is barely the majority) have deemed HB taking as an Outlaw act. Unless that vote changes, thats how it is.

 

I'm done with this thread.

 

Considering there is not even 200 votes cast in the poll claming majority has spoken is a huge abuse. Even now, there's 350 playes online. There's around 90 votes claiming that taking HB is an outlaw act... What kind of majority it is? Barely 25% of players being online right now. Considering there's over 800 players at time, your majority is around 10-15%. Wow!

I would assume that minority shan't claim any rules, especially if in the poll like the one above there's just 9% of difference between options.

Moreover, I would say that the poll is constructed in a wrong way. There is not option: I don't have my own opinion on this topic. It makes the poll even less trustworthy.

So please, do not try to force me to follow rules you creatively make up at time you need. It smells too much like politics. Don't need it, really.

 

To clarify:

YOU = people claming taking HB is an outlaw act.

Edited by Anshar

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Let's turn the words other way around:
...And i've grown tired of you trying to justify HBjumping with your own opinion and the game rules.
I've grown tired of you trying to create more and more 'community rules' to justify your claming that this or that is against it.
But he's right, though, anyone talking about game rules in the outlaws forum doesn't get it (unless it's something like "That's actually against the rules, you should post in abuse"). And anyone who has to resort to irrelevancies to try to win the argument has lost, because they don't have a valid point.
Considering there is not even 200 votes cast in the poll claming majority has spoken is a huge abuse. Even now, there's 350 playes online. There's around 90 votes claiming that taking HB is an outlaw act... What kind of majority it is? Barely 250% of players being online right now. Considering there's over 800 players at time, your majority is around 10-15%. Wow!
First off, for raw numbers, you should certainly know by now that you won't get a huge number of votes in forum polls (unless, perhaps, it's posted ingame a few times on #Message). The opinions on the forums are probably slanted more towards the longer term or social players, but not that much that it's not representational.

As for the ratio? Well, it has been made clear a lot of people think that it's not the same because the bags should be taken for the same reasons as normal bags. Given the ratio of comments using this argument vs real arguments, you can move more than half of the no votes to yes (because they're saying that bags should be taken, the same way people say death bags should be taken, which implies that the different types of bags are treated the same, which is actually a yes vote). Even allowing for the people posting opinions to not be overly representational, and allowing that forum postings/votes have a tendency to be skewed to the more community minded players, you still end up with a clear majority to the point that "A bag is a bag" (whether you think bags are free to take or not).

Moreover, I would say that the poll is constructed in a wrong way. There is not option: I don't have my own opinion on this topic. It makes the poll even less trustworthy.
An option like that is important when you have multiple polls at once, so people can vote for only some. When there's only one choice, what do you miss out on by not counting the abstains? Less idea of how many people have read here, perhaps, but it's active enough (and in an active forum) that people who read the forums should have seen it.
So please, do not try to force me to follow rules you creatively make up at time you need. It smells too much like politics. Don't need it, really.
Force? Hmm, who's forcing you to follow community rules? That's right, no-one.

And politics? Well, of course. Pretty much any social interaction will have some level of politics. When we're talking about what's expected/accepted social behaviour, how can you expect to not have politics come into play?

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Ttlanhil, who said it IS community rule?

I would never dare to claim that such poll may be a reason to claim community rules.

I wouldn't dare, as well, to claim that 87 vs 73 is a 'clear majority'. Again, very strong words, not really finding basement in facts.

Actually a piece of information about how many people read this thread would be very important, especially considering claimings of 'vast majority', 'clear majority'. Even more important when it comes for people clamining that Community Rules have been broken basing just on this single poll. Let's seperate a single poll with around 200 votes from the whole community.

<edit>

I find the poll question phrased in a way that may suggest an answer.

It should be worded without using anything like 'bagjump' and similar. Better option would be:

"Do you consider taking an actively found hyper bag anything bad?"

or

"Do you consider taking an actively found hyperbag an outlaw act?"

Why? Who would like to end on the 'bagjumper' side? It may or may not influence the poll resuts. Yet, the doubt remains.

Edited by Anshar

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Regardless of the votes cast for/against:

 

1. the victim of the original thread considered HBjumping an antisocial act and posted it in the outlaws forum, and;

 

2. I (personally) agree that it is and will be less likely to trust the actions of the persons/guild that performed/condoned the act, and;

 

3. each player can and will choose to act according to their beliefs regardless of the arguments presented here

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Considering there is not even 200 votes cast in the poll claming majority has spoken is a huge abuse. Even now, there's 350 playes online. There's around 90 votes claiming that taking HB is an outlaw act... What kind of majority it is? Barely 25% of players being online right now. Considering there's over 800 players at time, your majority is around 10-15%. Wow!

I would assume that minority shan't claim any rules, especially if in the poll like the one above there's just 9% of difference between options.

Moreover, I would say that the poll is constructed in a wrong way. There is not option: I don't have my own opinion on this topic. It makes the poll even less trustworthy.

So please, do not try to force me to follow rules you creatively make up at time you need. It smells too much like politics. Don't need it, really.

 

To clarify:

YOU = people claming taking HB is an outlaw act.

There are far more people voting in this poll than the previous. As of today, there are a total of 105 unique votes (for two different questions, giving the 210 total votes). Right now we have 160 unique votes on this poll. Those taking bags would refer to the previous poll as justification of their actions. This was prior to it reaching 105 unique votes, in fact it had only 95 votes at the time. Just because several players either don't know about the poll or have elected to not voice their opinion doesn't invalidate those that have.

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I don't really see how comparing to previous poll, which was far from being a good one validates this one? I may miss your point, though.

What I'm trying to say for quite a long time now, is just strongly opposing against claiming any Community Rule basing on this poll.

 

Addition to my previous post.

Just one more example of a bad wording of a poll question:

"Would you agree with people claiming taking a hyperbag equals to bagjumping and demanding it is one more Community Rule only for a sole purpose of calling people doing treasurehuning Outlawers?"

Want to bet what would be results of such poll?

 

<edit>

There are far more people voting in this poll than the previous.

Once again, I apply for not using such strong wordings. 55 votes is certainly more, but it is still not that many more as you suggest.

Edited by Anshar

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There are far more people voting in this poll than the previous.

Once again, I apply for not using such strong wordings. 55 votes is certainly more, but it is still not that many more as you suggest.

Play your semantics all you want. 55 votes more than a thread with a total of 105 votes. that's more than 50% more people voting (52.4%). I'm pretty sure that's valid justification for far more.

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An option like that is important when you have multiple polls at once, so people can vote for only some. When there's only one choice, what do you miss out on by not counting the abstains? Less idea of how many people have read here, perhaps, but it's active enough (and in an active forum) that people who read the forums should have seen it.
So please, do not try to force me to follow rules you creatively make up at time you need. It smells too much like politics. Don't need it, really.
Force? Hmm, who's forcing you to follow community rules? That's right, no-one.

And politics? Well, of course. Pretty much any social interaction will have some level of politics. When we're talking about what's expected/accepted social behaviour, how can you expect to not have politics come into play?

No, these options allow people who do not agree with either of the options to still vote and voice their opinion. It's a basic point of a voting system. Polls are already misleading and misrepresentative enough, without restricting the audience because you're not doing multiple polls!

 

Ttlanhil, who said it IS community rule?

I would never dare to claim that such poll may be a reason to claim community rules.

I wouldn't dare, as well, to claim that 87 vs 73 is a 'clear majority'. Again, very strong words, not really finding basement in facts.

Actually a piece of information about how many people read this thread would be very important, especially considering claimings of 'vast majority', 'clear majority'. Even more important when it comes for people clamining that Community Rules have been broken basing just on this single poll. Let's seperate a single poll with around 200 votes from the whole community.

<edit>

I find the poll question phrased in a way that may suggest an answer.

It should be worded without using anything like 'bagjump' and similar. Better option would be:

"Do you consider taking an actively found hyper bag anything bad?"

or

"Do you consider taking an actively found hyperbag an outlaw act?"

Why? Who would like to end on the 'bagjumper' side? It may or may not influence the poll resuts. Yet, the doubt remains.

I get the distinct impression you're "running on empty", "digging yourself a hole" and other awesome Englishisms. Basically, I think you're arguing purely for argument's sake. You're barely even on topic, so get over it!

 

Seriously, why does every discussion on these forums have to turn into a bitch fight or "i'm holier than thou" situation? There is no right or wrong here people, just his & her's opinion.

Edited by Placid

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I was watching a nature show about lions. The lion spent hours stalking & killing its prey. Then, along came a pack of hyenas & stole the kill. It struck me how similar this act of scavaging was to hyper bag treasure hunts.

 

It is not against the law to hang from a tree by your tail but I would like to think most of us have evolved past that need.

 

I will place my siggy quote here because I am going to change it soon.

 

The more gain that players can get from others' misfortunes, the more antisocial behavior will be present.

Quote:Todd Barron

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I don't really see how comparing to previous poll, which was far from being a good one validates this one? I may miss your point, though.

What I'm trying to say for quite a long time now, is just strongly opposing against claiming any Community Rule basing on this poll.

Just a reminder: I created this poll because a poster in the related Outlaw topic used the previous poll to argue that most players don't believe that actively seeking and taking hyperbags violates community norms. Also, the guild at issue justified its hyperbag “treasure hunt” policy based on the results of the previous poll. In my opinion, the previous poll was about hyperbags accidentally found. You disputed my opinion. Rather than argue the point, I simply created a new poll to find out whether people would respond differently if specifically asked about actively seeking and taking hyperbags.

 

They do.

 

I tend to agree that polls aren't the right way to establish community norms. Unfortunately, the guild at issue decided to do just that. I hope that they will re-evaluate their policy now that its clear that their reliance on the previous poll is unjustified.

 

Addition to my previous post.

Just one more example of a bad wording of a poll question:

"Would you agree with people claiming taking a hyperbag equals to bagjumping and demanding it is one more Community Rule only for a sole purpose of calling people doing treasurehuning Outlawers?"

Want to bet what would be results of such poll?

I think the results of that poll would be purely random, because no one would understand the question.

 

As to your previous post, your suggestion to substitute “bad” for “bagjumping” in the poll question would render the results uselessly ambiguous. If the word "bad" were used, then people could have correctly answered the question “no” even if they believe that actively seeking and taking hyperbags violates community norms. I might have answered it that way myself. There's nothing inherently “bad” about choosing to violate community norms. This is a game, and the game needs people playing all sorts of characters. People who violate community norms aren't “bad;” they are just outlaws.

 

I considered substituting “outlaw behavior” or “violates community norms” for bagjumping, mainly because I thought people might see the activity as a different violation of community norms than the one against bagjumping. All of the phrasing that I produced along those lines, however, seemed to require too much explanation, or to be too confusing, to produce a useful poll.

 

I vacillated on using the word “taking” instead of “stealing” in the poll title. I worried that “stealing” would unduly slant the question. The problem, though, is that “taking” could include taking with permission. So I concluded that the word "taking" would not produce an accurate poll title.

 

I've paid particular attention to the posts in this thread that object to the wording of the poll. I haven't seen any suggested wording, though, that I think would have produced a better poll.

 

No, these options allow people who do not agree with either of the options to still vote and voice their opinion. It's a basic point of a voting system. Polls are already misleading and misrepresentative enough, without restricting the audience because you're not doing multiple polls!

I considered including an "other" option, but I elected instead to use a forced choice format for the poll, and I continue to believe that is the right approach. An “other” option encourages people to avoid making a decision, and I wanted as many people to make a decision on the question as I could get. People who do not wish to vote either "yes" or "no" can still voice their opinion with a post in the thread.

 

Edited to correct typos.

Edited by Tarnbriar

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Just like gnome roasting, there are just 2 mantras. Yuk & Yum. Everything else is just political mumbo jumbo.

 

If we could quit placing cute & fuzzy terms to the act of bagjumping & call it what it is, key bombing with the intent to bagjump, then perhaps the armchair lawyers of EL will agree. Everything can quiet down & we can get back to reporting noobs for jumping bone bags on IP.

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Workplace is a better example than cave or forest, because the caves in EL are our characters work places.

 

Everyone shares these work places, we go out to them and do work to make money.

 

I dont see how the analogy of people working for the same company, in the same workplace, to all make money, and one or more of those people stealing money from the others, isn't the best analogy for this situation.

 

 

...and basically; just read ttl's post. Anyone who is pro HB jumping is pro Bagjumping in general.

You didnt make the bag, the contents arent yours. If you take them, your bagjumping. It's so plain and simple its just not funny.

 

 

if you wish to look at it in the context of a "company" and "economics" ("... to all make money, ..."), then that can be further extended to defend bag jumping and hyperbag "finding" in the following regard: players of EL don't work for just a single company. indeed, they work at 1000s of smaller companies (by themselves or as a guild or team) and all of those 1000s of companies share the same infinite resources, yet are in competition with each other in the economic arena. thusly, the quicker one gets product to market, the faster one turns a profit. in the interest of corporate prosperity(free market economies are, after all, based on the idea of self interest) and growth, it would only seem to be in a company's best interest to acquire resources as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently as possible. if someone else has already been considerate enough of your bottom line to have prepared a bag of resources/product for pick up, and it doesn't violate the "law", then the company's only moral obligation is the interests of the shareholders.

 

please note i'm not advocating either of these activities. i, myself, fall in the camp that feels both actions are wrong for ethical reasons(as have been stated:the items/goods in bag were earned by another player). just wanted to point out that oftentimes using analogies to illustrate a point can often back fire.

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it's difficult to read this much info on such a subject and stay focused on the topic.

 

at some point it seems some people started throwing personal issues around...

 

on the topic all i can say is that we have several kinds of people in this game, i won't say it's good or bad because it depends on the situation. some people like me prefer to work for the things they use to play and don't appreciate bjers, hbers, beggars, scammer, thieves, w/e!!!

 

treasure hunting will always be another way of stealing or w/e you want to call it.

yes i know the bag is no ones property, but the items inside it were gathered by someone.

 

if you want to treasure hunt it's fine by me, but i know that while you say you are looking for a specific person's bag you will find several that don't belong to him. none of them have tags saying who those items belong to, so you may claim you are getting your enemies bags and instead you are getting your friends.

 

as with bjing, if a member of the guild i belong to treasure hunted a hyper bag i would persuade other members to remove him.

 

If you don't agree with me, don't bother flaming on this post, just think about one thing, it is because of your way of thinking you aren't in Dao

Edited by temospena

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I considered including an "other" option, but I elected instead to use a forced choice format for the poll, and I continue to believe that is the right approach. An “other” option encourages people to avoid making a decision, and I wanted as many people to make a decision on the question as I could get. People who do not wish to vote either "yes" or "no" can still voice their opinion with a post in the thread.

It would've been better to include such an option, because those who didn't agree with either can't vote, or make non-representative choice. If you had included one, you could've got a greater idea of who has voted (and thus better figures as to the size of the audience this affects).

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The term "community rules" is slightly misleading as it implys the rules must be followed when we all know that is not the case,people are quite free to scam, bagjump, serp spawns etc all they like.

 

I prefer the term "community morals" and these are based wether we like it or not on the majority of players, if the game was 90% full of scammers and cheats the morals would be quite differant because they tend to drift towards what the majority feel is right or wrong.

 

Personaly IMO there isnt a right or wrong answer to this debate , I myself dont think it is right to search for others Hb but thats up to me, others think it is totally acceptable and aslong as it is not againts "the game rules" then they are quite right to do so ( be boring if we all thought the same)

 

IMO a game needs bad guys/outlaws it makes it more fun, but if thats the way you want to play dont bitch if you are caught and branded an outlaw

 

;)

Edited by conavar

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Bagjumping is taking something that is in a bag you did not create. But There is nothing wrong with bagjumping, imho, if you don't know the owner.

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I wouldnt say it is bagjumping purely cause someone leaving a hyperbag has knowingly taken a risk and placed it there in hyper.

 

IMO it has some similarities to to dropping stuff in pk you have worked for it and instead of taking to sto you put in hyper and hope it is still there just like working hard for armour and weapons and then walking into PK there is a risk there and you knowingly take it.

 

just my opinion Randmck.

Edited by brettmck

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I considered including an "other" option, but I elected instead to use a forced choice format for the poll, and I continue to believe that is the right approach. An “other” option encourages people to avoid making a decision, and I wanted as many people to make a decision on the question as I could get. People who do not wish to vote either "yes" or "no" can still voice their opinion with a post in the thread.

It would've been better to include such an option, because those who didn't agree with either can't vote, or make non-representative choice. If you had included one, you could've got a greater idea of who has voted (and thus better figures as to the size of the audience this affects).

I'm not convinced that an "other" option would have provided any useful information, whether about who has voted or about anything else. There would have been no meaningful way to interpret the "other" responses, making them useless. My opinion remains that forced choice is the better format.

Edited by Tarnbriar

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Community rules game rules, rules rules rules rules rules !!!!!!

 

I cant believe that there is even a discussion as to wether or not taking a hyper bag that is not yours is bagjumping or not !!

 

Its a bag, its not yours, you ACTIVELY dropped a key to find it, you take the stoof inside and HEY PRESTO you just bagjumped ! GRATZ! :rolleyes:

 

Seriously ! There cant possibly be any justification for stealing anything !'' i wasnt looking for it , i didnt do this i didnt do that im innocent cover me in hunny and slide me into heaven , im only 15 i dont know better nobody taught me that stealing was wrong my family are outlaws i was raised in puddle of dog pee''

 

What nonsense! In my not so humble opinion these are the steps to stealing a hyper bag

 

1. Intent to look for them ( your carrying the keys right ? and more than one yeh ? )

 

2. Actively Dropping a Key ( and dont gimme that '' i stumbled upon it '' rubbish !! If you MADE your own you KNOW where it is, so why drop aload of keys elsewhere unless your looking for what not yours ?? )

 

3. Found one !! You take the contents. Your a bagjumper come on just admit it :)

 

Oh hang on, maybe your a '' treasure hunter '' well if thats the case then why arent there a million posts in Outlaws for '' Treasure Hunter Stole my Bag ''

 

There arent !! Because its called bag jumping LOL !

 

Also , people are saying '' but its not in the ruwels we are allowed to do eet SNORT HONK ''

 

Yeh your allowed to do it go ahead ! But your also allowed to scamm and bagjump, so your saying thats cool to ? Come on !!! DOuble standards !!! Whats the differance between a DB with 15 gc in it and some cheap leather armor ( OOH MAYBE AN IRON SOWRD !! ) and a hyperbag with 15k silver ore and 15k FE ?

 

Theres a HUGE differance because you know by stealing a hyperbag its probably got loads of stoof in it!

 

Thief ...

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Whats the differance between a DB with 15 gc in it and some cheap leather armor ( OOH MAYBE AN IRON SOWRD !! ) and a hyperbag with 15k silver ore and 15k FE ?

 

Just one. The first one is left by accident by a misfortunate person that managed to die. The second one is left on purpose in high-traffic area to make ones mixing easier. Old saying. No risk-no gain. You leave such stuff in hyperbag, stop whining when you lose it.

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