Saving Stones

[Stormie]

ghrae said: I actually like the higher nexus requirement. Why? Because it separates the serious mixers from those trying to do everything and not willing to put the pick points into the skill.

 

i have to say i doubt any one who is tryin everythin has the craft level to mix.

 

Why raise the nexus when those who can make have worked hard to have level to make them

Edited August 18, 2007 by EStorm

[shallara]

ghrae said: I actually like the higher nexus requirement. Why? Because it separates the serious mixers from those trying to do everything and not willing to put the pick points into the skill.

 

i have to say i doubt any one who is tryin everythin has the craft level to mix.

 

Why raise the nexus when those who can make have worked hard to have level to make them

 

 

Some of us pride ourselves on being able to make everything...

Granted, I have a bit of a ways to go in Manu and Summon,

 

But with the rest of my stats, it *is* possible.

 

I have sacrificed the fighters stats to be able to pour pp's into nexus to be able to accomplish this.

One day I hope to be able to make everything in game, and still be able to train a/d.

 

And yes, I do have the craft levels to make the Stone. And the knowledge, and the pickpoints handy to put into it if Entropy decides to up the arti nex requirement.

[milesp]

ghrae said: I actually like the higher nexus requirement. Why? Because it separates the serious mixers from those trying to do everything and not willing to put the pick points into the skill.

 

i have to say i doubt any one who is tryin everythin has the craft level to mix.

 

Why raise the nexus when those who can make have worked hard to have level to make them

 

When you have rare items, it is in the best interests of those who have trained the skill to have the requirements to make it be as hard as they possibly can. I too have the levels, and nearly all the nexus required to make the stone even if it does go up to arti 7(only 1 arti short). I think moving this up to Arti 7 and perhaps even bumping the required level up a bit higher would be great. I'm all for limiting the number of people who can make it. Eventually there will be many many people who can make it, but for now reward those who have worked so very hard.

 

When CoL and CoM's were released there were only about 10 of us active who could make them. Ironically 3 of the 10 where Ghrae, Shallara and I. Now they are common place. The saving stone will have the same fate, it is simply a matter of time.

[Entropy]

To answer your question about prices, Entropy, those are market prices now

- refined vegetal and mixture of power about 3.5Kgc

- eme about 6Kgc

total ingredients = 19Kgc

 

saving stone 25-30Kgc.

 

I know there is speculation on emes, and on the stones too, but on a product made in few exemplaries, you have to include the loss factor in price.

 

If we, potters lower our price, it doubt it will go under 3K each, and for eme i never saw it under 4K, which makes 14K ingredients.

 

For the crafter part, if he gets the risk of loosing 14K ingredients, he will not sell for less than 20-25K

 

All this is a little far from your original goal of a 10K product.

 

Maybe whith only one eme?

 

One EME?

Are you aware that many items require 5+ expensive ingredients (binding, serpent, enriched essences, expensive bars, etc.)?

Yes, I originally planned for the cost to be around 10K, but I realized that it's too little, when you think that it can save items that cost 50K+

 

When CoL and CoM's were released there were only about 10 of us active who could make them. Ironically 3 of the 10 where Ghrae, Shallara and I. Now they are common place. The saving stone will have the same fate, it is simply a matter of time.

 

By the time that happens, there will be other items.

[bkc56]

Yes, I originally planned for the cost to be around 10K, but I realized that it's too little, when you think that it can save items that cost 50K+

So paying more than 20% of an item's ingredient value for insurance is a reasonable amount? Better not let your insurance agent hear you say that when he's getting ready to set your rates...

 

It's the same old trade-off: make it cost more and less of the stones will be made and used. Make it cost less and more will be made and used. I've always been of the opinion that having an item get used more is better (why have it if few people use it?), but it sounds like the preference is to take it the other way.

[flinto]

It's the same old trade-off: make it cost more and less of the stones will be made and used. Make it cost less and more will be made and used. I've always been of the opinion that having an item get used more is better (why have it if few people use it?), but it sounds like the preference is to take it the other way.

 

Thats why i earlier suggested getting rid of the eme but making a stone disappear on each mix whether you fail or not and also raising the requirements. It could then have a lower production cost (5kish) and more would get used.

[Entropy]

Umm, this is not an insurance stone, it is a saving stone. You really can't see the difference?

Even if they were worth 90% of the item value, they would still be very useful.

[Zamirah]

Most top crafters make COLs for ingreds and 10k gc, so why try to make one and risk a saving stone that cost more.

And if you fail do you need another saving stone for next try, could be very expensive.

So better do as usual, ask one of the top crafters.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Zamirah

[SleepyDragon]

Zamirah said: Most top crafters make COLs for ingreds and 10k gc, so why try to make one and risk a saving stone that cost more.

And if you fail do you need another saving stone for next try, could be very expensive.

So better do as usual, ask one of the top crafters.

 

I'd like to point out that if you are paying the 10k to a crafter then it is an insurance that you end up with a finished item whether the crafter fails your particular set of ingreds or not. I'm not sure how other people do it but I make sure I always have a spare of each crown in my inv for when someone pays me that insurance. If I then later fail the crown with the set of ingreds someone has given me then they will never know because they have gone away with their item by that time.

 

Therefore the saving stone is for the mixers benefit not the buyers and as we all know we take that risk every time we hit that mix button. I would have thought it was the choice of the individual mixer whether they want to spend the gc on ingreds for the stone or not, it shouldn't affect whether the buyer recieves an end product or not but only how much of a risk the mixer is taking.

[Zamirah]

Zamirah said: Most top crafters make COLs for ingreds and 10k gc, so why try to make one and risk a saving stone that cost more.

And if you fail do you need another saving stone for next try, could be very expensive.

So better do as usual, ask one of the top crafters.

 

I'd like to point out that if you are paying the 10k to a crafter then it is an insurance that you end up with a finished item whether the crafter fails your particular set of ingreds or not. I'm not sure how other people do it but I make sure I always have a spare of each crown in my inv for when someone pays me that insurance. If I then later fail the crown with the set of ingreds someone has given me then they will never know because they have gone away with their item by that time.

 

Therefore the saving stone is for the mixers benefit not the buyers and as we all know we take that risk every time we hit that mix button. I would have thought it was the choice of the individual mixer whether they want to spend the gc on ingreds for the stone or not, it shouldn't affect whether the buyer recieves an end product or not but only how much of a risk the mixer is taking.

I have made COLs before I reset, have level 61 as needed - but not nexus atm - but if I had nexus would I not risk a saving stone, worth more than 10k if I could trade from a higher level crafter.

So I think only few would use the stones.

 

Same with manu, I make lower level armor I can make without saving stones - like tit greaves and cuisses - , buy the higher level armor - tit plates and higher - from a higher level manuer where I COULD have used saving stones and tryed to make it.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Zamirah

[Pyewacket]

dont forget, the saving stone protects losses of ingredients and THAT is the basis at the moment for the cost of upto 50k+ that entropy is mentioning, but in fact those ings, since theyre going to be mixed, can be worth far more AFTER a successful mix (particularly in the case of manuers). Well worth having a saving stone to some and a new reason to level that manu skill to others.

[jacky33]

omg why did somebody recommend the higher nexus?? Been working my head of to be able to do it soon and now need extra nexus.... grrrrr

[molime]

So paying more than 20% of an item's ingredient value for insurance is a reasonable amount? Better not let your insurance agent hear you say that when he's getting ready to set your rates...

 

You pay your insurance fee no matter if you need the insurance or not. You only use (pay) the saving stone if you actually see your ingredients go up in flames.

[greymage]

I have a final request.

As long as I understand what you need for product now, could we have one of those 3 formulas:

 

formula 1:

- 1 mixture of power

- 1 refined vegetal

- 1 eme

- 1 ewe

 

formula 2:

- 2 mixture of power

- 2 refined vegetal

- 1 eme

 

formula 3:

- 3 mixture of power

- 3 refined vegetal

 

prices of final product dont change much but it will lower the speculation on emes, and allow more eme to be disponible for their usual products

 

(of course I would prefer formula 3, lol)

 

greymage

[LeoI]

Most top crafters make COLs for ingreds and 10k gc, so why try to make one and risk a saving stone that cost more.

And if you fail do you need another saving stone for next try, could be very expensive.

So better do as usual, ask one of the top crafters.

 

well wouldnt you rather lose the saving stone worth 25k, rather than the ings for a col worth 55k? could save yourself 30k with it so it is well worth it for making all the expensive items, worth more than the saving stone itself

[Zamirah]

Most top crafters make COLs for ingreds and 10k gc, so why try to make one and risk a saving stone that cost more.

And if you fail do you need another saving stone for next try, could be very expensive.

So better do as usual, ask one of the top crafters.

 

well wouldnt you rather lose the saving stone worth 25k, rather than the ings for a col worth 55k? could save yourself 30k with it so it is well worth it for making all the expensive items, worth more than the saving stone itself

No, I would not risk to loose a saving stone, worth 25k if I could pay another 10k and be sure to get a COL.

I never said I WOULD MAKE the COL without saving stone even if I have to level for it.

I would ask one of the top crafters.

[Entropy]

No, I would not risk to loose a saving stone, worth 25k if I could pay another 10k and be sure to get a COL.

I never said I WOULD MAKE the COL without saving stone even if I have to level for it.

I would ask one of the top crafters.

 

I think the intelligence is not your strongest point, is it?

Let me explain it to you: The opurpose of a saving stone is not for Zamirah to have a CoL. The point of a saving stone is to dissapear when you fail, so you do not lose the ingredients. Do you understand it now?

[Anamir]

Well actually i dont really care about how much hard is to make an item.. i really care about ballance .. I think the formula is ok. the cost is a bit high because not many ppl making lots of EMEs (maybe some manuers or summoners for giant summon). EMEs r rare now .. but i remember that i sold 2 EFEs for Padre for 10k each .. when they became VERY rare .. so EMEs @6k r not that expensive (think soon they will low the price - maybe change a bit the rate of EMEs or more ppl buying them from shop) think in future EMEs will costs like 4.5k so the cost of saving stone will be 9k from EMEs and 3k from each mixture (many ppl have a lot of mixtures in storage - i have 100+ of each and wont stop earn 1k exp in potion with 1 click) so the price will be like rosto .. 15k (ok rosto saves 500k in equips while saving stones saves like 35k (50k igreds less 15k of stone) .. but saving stones r make-able while rosto deppends lucky- being much more rare).

 

IMO: artif 7 to make the stones and keep the formula ..

 

sorry for my english .. its not my native..

 

[[''s Anamir

[Entropy]

There are maybe 5-10 EMEs entering the game every day from 'natural' sources (not from the shop or contests). Until now, they were rarely used, and there are quite a few in the game for now.

When they get use dup, I am sure people can buy them from the shop as well, they are at the same price with binding and EFEs, so they can't be too expensive.

[Usl]

No, I would not risk to loose a saving stone, worth 25k if I could pay another 10k and be sure to get a COL.

I never said I WOULD MAKE the COL without saving stone even if I have to level for it.

I would ask one of the top crafters.

Well, that's not the point of saving stones. You pay the extra 10Kgc on all mix, whether they are successfull or not, whereas you loose the 25Kgc for the saving stone only on critical failures.

For example, let us assume you have the exact suggested level for CoLs, 61 (we ignore potions, blessings and such for now). In another thread, it was stated that this means you will fail 50% of the times, with 1/3 of these being critical fails. Then, you would have -- on average -- one critical fail every 6 mix. Hence, over 6 mix you would lose 25Kgc with the stone, or 60Kgc with the "insurance". The higher the level, the larger the difference (in favour of using the stone).

Of course few people will need 6 CoLs in a row, but you get the point...

 

From another point of view, if the top crafters keep the 10Kgc "insurance" and use a saving stone, they will make much more money from the business, which is why saving stones might be good for high-level chars (the top crafters). If they compete, maybe the insurance will drop to 5Kgc, which is why saving stones might be good for mid-level chars (their buyers).

[LilBear]

Two eme does seem a bit tough, not because of the item cost, but simply because eme are somewhat hard to come by. Entropy says there are quite a few in the game (in storages?), but I know that I had quite a difficult time finding them when I wanted a CoM. Sure, maybe you can buy them in the online shop, and maybe some people will, but it does seem that it would be difficult to get them. But I suppose that is part of the reason why Entropy made the formula as it is.

I do like the idea of tracking creation (not purchase) of eme over the next couple of weeks, as well as creationg of savings stones, and also how many of those savings stones actually are lost. Maybe Ent can pull some stats on that in a couple of weeks? We'd be having this discussion based on data, not our personal perceptions/preferences.

 

lilbear

 

Edit: As far as concentrating on one skill versus many of them - in real life, there are a lot more people who are somewhat good at a bunch of things than people who are excelling at one and only one thing. How many of us are supermodels or Nobel Prize winners irl, right? I understand that EL is EL and not real life, but it's much more human nature to try out a bunch of skills rather than doing just one or two, so I'm not happy with the implication that somehow working on multiple skills is less desirable to Entropy. How can it be, if switching between skills is what keeps most of us going and re-energized when we get slightly bored with the game?

Edited August 22, 2007 by LilBear