"Market" value of EFE?

[Golemer]

Oh Entropy I am sorry I didn't mean that targeting towards you. I was saying that in repsonce to a lot of others saying that a wipe would be a good idea. Sorry for the confusion but I do agree with the character wipe the inactive ones anyways.

[DogBreath]

Look, I am not going to do a wipe of any items, except for the inactive characters.

In fact, we never deleted inactive characters so far, except for newbie ones.

 

So some of the items are in characters who didn't log in in years. Unfortunately, we do not know who didn't log prior to September 2006, because the player file date changed to that date since we switched servers.

 

That being said, I'll stop promoting the idea or even defending it, ty for saying one way or the other

Edited November 22, 2007 by Josi

[darky]

An EFE costs 2US$. Fair price of gc to $ is about 3.5k.

So to keep EL shop competitive EFE should be worth 7k.

 

Current price is 6k. so it can go up a little.

 

By the way serp stone are way under valued in game.

But this is just my opinion.

-Darky

[Mugwump]

I am eventually planning to remove all the items from characters that didn't log in more than 2 years.

A great idea! I guess September 2008 will begin the first two years, but if there is any way to start the process sooner you could begin at one and a half years.

 

As to dabomb1's post about players in the military being gone for long periods of time (I hope "deported" was a slip on the word "deployed" ) this is a valid point. If there was a safe and easy way to maintain such a database, being able to connect game player names with passwords with forum accounts with email addresses and time stamps, would be a boon to all (except the poor fool who suggested it and will now have to maintain it !) It seems logical that this information is vulnerable for security breaches, abuse, etc., but if it could be accessed then an automated pre-agreed idle character time limit could be set. All players who have been idle for a given period of time receive an email warning of deletion... rules to be set... a whole nother category for moderation, etc. Still it 'could' be done.

 

Before I can use the evil phrase "You have to do this for us..." I willingly will say "How can I help you do what you need to make EL easier to maintain and improve." Suggestions are only steam in cold air without the heat to keep the steam rising. I'll keep my boiler stoked if I'm asked to put out real effort to making EL easier to maintain and improve.

[Learner]

I am eventually planning to remove all the items from characters that didn't log in more than 2 years.

A great idea! I guess September 2008 will begin the first two years, but if there is any way to start the process sooner you could begin at one and a half years.

 

As to dabomb1's post about players in the military being gone for long periods of time (I hope "deported" was a slip on the word "deployed" ) this is a valid point. If there was a safe and easy way to maintain such a database, being able to connect game player names with passwords with forum accounts with email addresses and time stamps, would be a boon to all (except the poor fool who suggested it and will now have to maintain it !) It seems logical that this information is vulnerable for security breaches, abuse, etc., but if it could be accessed then an automated pre-agreed idle character time limit could be set. All players who have been idle for a given period of time receive an email warning of deletion... rules to be set... a whole nother category for moderation, etc. Still it 'could' be done.

 

Before I can use the evil phrase "You have to do this for us..." I willingly will say "How can I help you do what you need to make EL easier to maintain and improve." Suggestions are only steam in cold air without the heat to keep the steam rising. I'll keep my boiler stoked if I'm asked to put out real effort to making EL easier to maintain and improve.

Since you can create a character without supplying a email address, there is no safe way to link characters to forums accounts. Plus, there are also a lot of characters that never create forums account.

[Stricken]

EL was 1 of the first games I ever started to read forums on, and it's become a hobby of mine. I only found it by accident, but yes it's true many players don't even have a forums account...

[Ateh]

I didnt want to get inolved in this thread because I didnt think my opinion would be apreciated.

 

Here it is anyway ! I think the reason EFE has continued to go up and up and up is not becuase so and so hoards, or whatever reason like that.

 

I honest to god believe that the current price of EFE , 7kgc from some BOTS , is because of price wars between BOT owners.

 

Hear me out, if you know a BOT is going to buy your EFE for 6.5kgc , would you sell it to a player for anything less ?

 

No you bloody wouldnt because that would be stupid wouldnt it, so we have a situation here where the bots are dictating the prices players will buy and sell from each other because they know they can sell to a BOT for better or buy for cheaper or whatever.

 

The price of EFE is not fixed by hoarders ( as they never sell the things by defenition ) It is being fixed by BOTS and thier price wars, THATS the reason EFE are being sold and baught between BOTS and not bloody players.

 

If i could seriously be bothered I would compile a list of how many BOTS are selling EFE and buying them in a day, and I bet my eternal soul there are more BOTS buying and selling EFE than players in that same day.

 

If you want to look for a reason why EFE is so bloody expensive, have a look at how much a BOT will pay for one , and you will see why you cant buy an EFE on the market for love nor money.

 

My opinion , hate it or love it, the price is being fixed by BOT price wars. Not players , the players are simply reacting to the prices that BOTS are willing to pay for EFE.

 

Peace ( and a BOT full of EFE )

[Learner]

I didnt want to get inolved in this thread because I didnt think my opinion would be apreciated.

 

Here it is anyway ! I think the reason EFE has continued to go up and up and up is not becuase so and so hoards, or whatever reason like that.

 

I honest to god believe that the current price of EFE , 7kgc from some BOTS , is because of price wars between BOT owners.

 

Hear me out, if you know a BOT is going to buy your EFE for 6.5kgc , would you sell it to a player for anything less ?

 

No you bloody wouldnt because that would be stupid wouldnt it, so we have a situation here where the bots are dictating the prices players will buy and sell from each other because they know they can sell to a BOT for better or buy for cheaper or whatever.

 

The price of EFE is not fixed by hoarders ( as they never sell the things by defenition ) It is being fixed by BOTS and thier price wars, THATS the reason EFE are being sold and baught between BOTS and not bloody players.

 

If i could seriously be bothered I would compile a list of how many BOTS are selling EFE and buying them in a day, and I bet my eternal soul there are more BOTS buying and selling EFE than players in that same day.

 

If you want to look for a reason why EFE is so bloody expensive, have a look at how much a BOT will pay for one , and you will see why you cant buy an EFE on the market for love nor money.

 

My opinion , hate it or love it, the price is being fixed by BOT price wars. Not players , the players are simply reacting to the prices that BOTS are willing to pay for EFE.

 

Peace ( and a BOT full of EFE )

Prices are fixed by players, not bots. You simply notice the higher prices in the bots easier. Most of the bots have their prices adjusted by their owners based on the current market price, not the other way around.

[Ateh]

Most ?

 

If someone knows that a bot is buying an EFE for 6.5kgc , probably higher in a few weeks from now, then how will that affect thier price when selling that EFE ?

 

They are not going to sell it any cheaper are they ?

 

I know ive just repeated myself but seriously, to say the bots have no effect on the market value of an EFE just cant be true. Of course they are having an effect on it.

 

Look we all know that a bot will usually buy for less than you can get from a player, but that just isnt the case with an EFE. A look at RRaisa for buying or selling EFE will tell you that, yes some bots are still going for the old ''buy it for 2k less than im going to sell it routine '' but not all of them.

 

And when looking at the market, it has to be said that the increase of bots in the market chanel MUST be having some sort of effect on prices. To say they are not is ignoring the fact they are part of the EL economy.

 

Im not saying for a minute that bots are a bad thing Learner, ive sold to and baught from many bots and will continue to do so, my observation about the price of EFE is simply that, an observation and perhaps my lack of logic coming to the conclusion that if the bots prices are rising for buying EFE so will the prices that players sell to each other.

 

Weve all had a PM from someone telling us '' this bot sells/buys for cheaper than that ''

 

And the bots are not having any influence on the market prices ?

 

I believe they are, right or wrong, thats how I see it.

[Learner]

Most ?

 

If someone knows that a bot is buying an EFE for 6.5kgc , probably higher in a few weeks from now, then how will that affect thier price when selling that EFE ?

 

They are not going to sell it any cheaper are they ?

 

I know ive just repeated myself but seriously, to say the bots have no effect on the market value of an EFE just cant be true. Of course they are having an effect on it.

 

Look we all know that a bot will usually buy for less than you can get from a player, but that just isnt the case with an EFE. A look at RRaisa for buying or selling EFE will tell you that, yes some bots are still going for the old ''buy it for 2k less than im going to sell it routine '' but not all of them.

 

And when looking at the market, it has to be said that the increase of bots in the market chanel MUST be having some sort of effect on prices. To say they are not is ignoring the fact they are part of the EL economy.

 

Im not saying for a minute that bots are a bad thing Learner, ive sold to and baught from many bots and will continue to do so, my observation about the price of EFE is simply that, an observation and perhaps my lack of logic coming to the conclusion that if the bots prices are rising for buying EFE so will the prices that players sell to each other.

 

Weve all had a PM from someone telling us '' this bot sells/buys for cheaper than that ''

 

And the bots are not having any influence on the market prices ?

 

I believe they are, right or wrong, thats how I see it.

What I was saying is that the high bot prices is a response to players adjusting the market price. Once the price gets adjusted, that is when they start affecting market, but the market price change by players happens first.

[nicky]

There are a few reasons you have to buy efe's for 7k from a bot.

 

1. you don't own one that will buy you an efe for 6-6.2k

2. bot owners have to compete by offering a high buy price, then tack on a profit.

3. the profit added to an item is usually higher for efe, because some bot owners would rather have a nice stash of efe's at thier disposal when they want one. Why offer a low price? your bot will always be out of stock if you do. Keep the price high and you will have an efe when you want it.

 

I work hard at building reports that tell me the shape of the market, what im usually out of, and what's not selling at my current prices. It takes a few hours every few days, but in the end i have a nice store of supplies while also turning a nice profit to distribute to our guild members.

 

Also the public perception of the drop rate matters alot. Whether or not they drop, perception is everything when it comes to prices and the value you perceive you're getting for your hard earned gc's!

[Ateh]

2. bot owners have to compete by offering a high buy price, then tack on a profit.

3. the profit added to an item is usually higher for efe, because some bot owners would rather have a nice stash of efe's at thier disposal when they want one. Why offer a low price? your bot will always be out of stock if you do. Keep the price high and you will have an efe when you want it.

 

 

 

as stated by a bot owner , i think this is kind of backing my thaughts up somewhat , especially the first part i have highlighted in bold

 

peace

[Golemer]

Personally me and my wife Lamorian own two bots one of which does buy efe's.. we do not pay 6.5k by choice for efe's.. if we do not pay 6.5k for efe's it's simple.. we wont get one. Cuz there is always someone trying to outbid you and it's lead upto the point of you either pay 6.5k per efe or just don't get one. I currently have 15 efe's I am trying to sell at not much higher then what I pay for them so I am not one who is going to charge 1k or 2k more then what I paid for it.. cuz even though I pay 6.5k do you think that I think it's a good price? LoL heck no I don't like paying 6.5k but if I don't then it's clear an efe wont come my way and thanks to the prices being so high people ask me how much I am selling efe's for and when I mention 6.6k when I only paid 6.5k people think I am crazy lol.. but oh well they always sell anyways.. but takes longer to sell them now that the prices have hit a crazy high.

[Entropy]

Ateh, it is called free marker.

If a bot buys EFEs for 1K GC each, no one will sell to that bot (they can sell to other bots for more).

If a bot buys EFEs for 20 GC, that bot will buy a LOT of them because everyone will sell them to that bot. However, only someone very rich could afford to buy them for that price, and then he would be stuck with maybe 1K EFEs that he can't use (for a profit).

 

So the prices are adjusted based on the market prices.

[Theladin]

I also own a bot who buys for 6kgc and though we don't have many people selling to us because there are bots who buy for more, people still do sell. Those EFE's are then usually turned into vial molds which are sold for 6kgc so we don't make any money on the sale but are happy to get the exp when making the molds. So please don't go blaming bots the EFE prices. Besides, if the prices were lowered there would probably be just as many people complaining that they can't sell their EFEs at a decent price as there are people compaining that they can't buy at a decent price now.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Jon Finch

[Vanyel]

Ateh, it is called free marker.

If a bot buys EFEs for 1K GC each, no one will sell to that bot (they can sell to other bots for more).

If a bot buys EFEs for 20 GC, that bot will buy a LOT of them because everyone will sell them to that bot. However, only someone very rich could afford to buy them for that price, and then he would be stuck with maybe 1K EFEs that he can't use (for a profit).

 

So the prices are adjusted based on the market prices.

 

Just a fix. You've probably meant 2k gc or 20k gc.

 

Beside this I agree with your post. This is how the free market works. Nothing more, nothing less. People will not sell their items to ones offering lower prices (unless other factors apply - like liking/disliking).

I'm far from blaming bots for EFE prices. I keep thinking the main problem is not enough ways of profitable use of them.

[nicky]

2. bot owners have to compete by offering a high buy price, then tack on a profit.

3. the profit added to an item is usually higher for efe, because some bot owners would rather have a nice stash of efe's at thier disposal when they want one. Why offer a low price? your bot will always be out of stock if you do. Keep the price high and you will have an efe when you want it.

 

 

 

as stated by a bot owner , i think this is kind of backing my thaughts up somewhat , especially the first part i have highlighted in bold

 

peace

 

To the contrary, my point was that bot owners have to adjust to what people's perception of the value of thier items are. Bot prices are an EFFECT of this perception, not the root cause.

[grouth_braath]

Ateh, it is called free marker.

If a bot buys EFEs for 1K GC each, no one will sell to that bot (they can sell to other bots for more).

If a bot buys EFEs for 20 GC, that bot will buy a LOT of them because everyone will sell them to that bot. However, only someone very rich could afford to buy them for that price, and then he would be stuck with maybe 1K EFEs that he can't use (for a profit).

 

So the prices are adjusted based on the market prices.

 

Just a fix. You've probably meant 2k gc or 20k gc.

 

Beside this I agree with your post. This is how the free market works. Nothing more, nothing less. People will not sell their items to ones offering lower prices (unless other factors apply - like liking/disliking).

I'm far from blaming bots for EFE prices. I keep thinking the main problem is not enough ways of profitable use of them.

it's not a free market, because You can go to the shop

[Learner]

Ateh, it is called free marker.

If a bot buys EFEs for 1K GC each, no one will sell to that bot (they can sell to other bots for more).

If a bot buys EFEs for 20 GC, that bot will buy a LOT of them because everyone will sell them to that bot. However, only someone very rich could afford to buy them for that price, and then he would be stuck with maybe 1K EFEs that he can't use (for a profit).

 

So the prices are adjusted based on the market prices.

 

Just a fix. You've probably meant 2k gc or 20k gc.

 

Beside this I agree with your post. This is how the free market works. Nothing more, nothing less. People will not sell their items to ones offering lower prices (unless other factors apply - like liking/disliking).

I'm far from blaming bots for EFE prices. I keep thinking the main problem is not enough ways of profitable use of them.

it's not a free market, because You can go to the shop

Shop prices are higher then the current market price. Plus people that have hoarded them or are making tons of FE's can make a killing even with the current prices.

[Ramon]

They were 6-7k in the past, even when they were only used for iron armor. I bet they will come back to that price.

 

6-7k?

When i started playing EL they were 8k

 

yes, they were once 8k iirc

[kailomonkey]

EFE prices went up when their rarity was increeased and many commonly-breaking tools were added to the game that require EFE to make.

 

As for hoarders... By the sounds of it, EFE prices had got low. Perhaps this low price is why some people have hoarded theirs, knowing that the price used to be hgh and waiting for it to be high again. Basically a sell high investment. If that is the case, as the EFE prices continue to promise slow rise, they will continue to hold onto them. There is also the chance they just want to hold onto them incase they need them someday, incase the prices went up and they became more rare.

 

Well in both these cases, which are not the only possibilites, it seems a little tricky. The option to obliterate their rarity as an item would be nice for the non-hoarders and remove the benefit of hoarding for the hoarders, perhaps. But still the EFE may remain in the hands of hoarders, with similar expectations of need or price rise.

 

Another possibility is that these are people who simply don't need 50 EFEs and don't need cash either. Maybe they have played long enough to be wealthy beyond needs. I can't see a solution for this either, except to accept that these players exist and let them be.

Edited November 26, 2007 by kailomonkey

[Vanyel]

I can't see a solution for this either, except to accept that these players exist and let them be.

 

In this case this solution seems to be the best.

I'm not sure if I can be called a hoarder with my 34 EFE, yet, I'm keeping them waiting for a day I will be able to use them either for profits of some items I just would like to have.

[kailomonkey]

Kheres, you're a hoarder hehe

 

But thankyou for the insight.

 

So we need a 10-30 EFE item than some hoarders mihgt want. But then that might encourage more people to start saving. Eek I give up, how about a EFEs act like Rostogol Stones #day, or make EFE usable in some horribly attractive to use offensive spell. Kills a giant in one bolt, that would get rid of all those EFE, perhaps? (or a dragon in 8?)

 

Disclaimer: This is meant to be light-hearted, no offence intended to the game makers or Kheres himself.

[Puntif]

As a manufacturer, I need a steady supply of EFE in order to make the things I make. Since I cannot make EFE fast enough to satisfy my demand I have to buy it. If the price I have been offering isn't high enough to bring in a steady supply I have to increase the price I pay or I have to stop making the items that use it.

 

I use my bot for most of my market buying/selling so I can spend my playing time making stuff instead of trying to work the markets. I have recently raised my bot's buy price for all the rare items I am short of including EFE. If I can't buy EFE at that price, I'll have to raise the price again (and of course factor that increase into my selling prices for manufactured goods).

 

I still have 35 EFE left so I can wait to raise my price, but a few more sets of titanium armors will use up my supply. Also I have stopped making iron plate items. The rate at which I can get EFE makes iron plate unattractive for me to make.

[Llywar]

The real issue isn't the price of the EFEs, but the cost of them relative to what you can do with them. If people are willing to pay 7k for an EFE it is obviously because they have something useful they can do with them. The real impact is on items that can't be sold for profit at those EFE costs.

 

For example - suppose an EFE is an incidental ingredient to a 70k item. Maybe a sword that takes a few hydro bars and an EFE. The price of that item is really dictated by the hydro and not so much by the EFE, so a little fluctuation in EFE prices doesn't impact them much. People will still pay a few more k for the EFE since there is still a profit. However, that raises the cost of EFEs, which then impacts the price of low-cost items which use a single EFE that drives the entire cost of the item (such as iron armor).

 

Another example would be EMEs and the saving stone. A saving stone is in theory worth up to the price of the most expensive thing you can make (to whoever makes it). The only rare ingredient in its manufacture is the EME (granted the other ingreds are tedious but completely harvestable). If I have the bazillion flowers it takes to make a saving stone and they cost me 30k to harvest, and I need to make a CoL, then I'd be willing to pay up to 15k each in theory for the two EMEs I need to make the stone (ok, in reality all this gets adjusted for fail rates). If you need those EMEs for something else with not nearly as much profit attached then you're going to be annoyed with me bidding 15k on them.

 

The only way to prevent the kinds of effects would be to use ingreds for either low-value, medium-value, or high-value items, and not mix them. So, no thread or mere EFEs in a 125k piece of armor. That will avoid putting newbies or med-level characters into bidding wars with uber-level players.

 

On the other hand the way things are currently is more like the real world. The price a homeowner pays for electricity is in part impacted by the demand for electricity by some aluminum smelter 50 miles away (who uses more power than a city). Try to buy a place to live in the suburbs if you are on a poverty level income - you're bidding against two-income middle-class families. Then again, this is a game so we don't want it to be completely realistic either. I "grind" all day at work so why would I want to do that in a game?

 

As far as bots-being-to-blame goes - I don't buy it. If anything bots keep selling prices down and buying prices up. If I saw that an item sold on market for 3k I'd probably have my bot buy it for 2.8k and sell it for 3.2k. People will sell to a bot for LESS than they would to a person, because the bot saves them all the trouble of finding somebody to sell it to. And ultimately bots work for their owners. If they didn't exist their owners would be charging the same prices themselves. Bots can't charge arbitrary prices either - if they buy for too much they lose money on every purchase. However, it might be the case that the bot owner has a more profitable use for an item than you do, so they can charge more.