Is Eternal Lands becoming fighters game?

[korrode]

Exactly Entropy.

I for one think you have done a good job of balancing it as it stands right now. You cant level artisan/mixer skills into the hundreds so there are no items that need the levels in the 100's.

 

The only problem i can see at all, is OA/carry capacity.

 

This suggestion is a bit out there; but a Crown of carry capacity that requires any nexus at 5 except inorganic or human could be the answer.

[jakie]

@Tirun

 

Dont forget that making those SR's will get you around ~190k gc profit

even if you buy all ingreds you still make ~130k profit

 

8-9 fluffy hours is max 15kgc of GC drops

Edited July 10, 2007 by jakie

[Lexi]

I totally agree, I fought for 2 hours once, it's very annoying, especially if you fight in a cave with hardly any light, even with my perception, it takes me ages to find something...

No ofeense or anything, i like u, but 2 hours training a/d is nothing..most spend 6-7 hours AT LEAST

 

My point was- 2 hours was enough to stir me away from fighting, I couldn't even imagine 6 hours 0.o

 

No offense taken

[Entropy]

BTW, the highest manufacturing level is under 90!. And I seriously doubt that even top 10 manu can consistently, without fail/ingredient lose make the dragon armor. And you want higher level items? LOL

[Lexi]

BTW, the highest manufacturing level is under 90!. And I seriously doubt that even top 10 manu can consistently, without fail/ingredient lose make the dragon armor. And you want higher level items? LOL

 

0.o Lets NOT do this....

[CelticLady]

BTW, the highest manufacturing level is under 90!. And I seriously doubt that even top 10 manu can consistently, without fail/ingredient lose make the dragon armor. And you want higher level items? LOL

 

That's correct, I'm not lvl 90 yet I have only mixed a total of 4 torsos, 4 cuisses, 5 greaves, and 2 helms. I crit failed 1 greaves and food failed a torso and greaves. I have stopped leveling manu unless it is a scholars day for reasons that don't pertain to this thread. Actually, one reason does, I do not receive enough requests to mix bronze/dragon armor to make it worth my time to level, imo.

 

@ Jakie, you didn't take food, mortar & pestle breakage and fails into your profit calculation, but yes, potions can be leveled at a profit. SR's is actually one of the ways I make gc.

 

Do I feel the xp is out of proportion for a/d and mixing skills or at least the oa xp we receive? Yes. Do I have a suggestion to make it better? No. Do I think it needs to be changed even? I'm not sure. That's for Entropy to decide. Perhaps this is the way he wants the skills to be.

 

I would however, like higher level manu items that are in demand. By higher level, I don't mean rec 140, but 80 or so. I might go back to leveling manufacturing if it was worth my time.

Edited July 10, 2007 by CelticLady

[jakie]

@ Jakie, you didn't take food, mortar & pestle breakage and fails into your profit calculation, but yes, potions can be leveled at a profit. SR's is actually one of the ways I make gc.

 

actually i did take FP cost, and fails and mortar breakage isnt that much i guess

[CelticLady]

@ Jakie, you didn't take food, mortar & pestle breakage and fails into your profit calculation, but yes, potions can be leveled at a profit. SR's is actually one of the ways I make gc.

 

actually i did take FP cost, and fails and mortar breakage isnt that much i guess

 

Perhaps you have your sell price higher than mine. I sell in quantities of 2k+ so I charge 14gc each. I'll check my math.

 

23k * 14 = 322kgc

 

23k vials = 115,000

23k wine = 17,250

4.6k fp's = 55,200

cost excluding fails or m&p breakage = 187,450gc

 

So if I harv all the other ingreds I would make 134,550gc

 

And I break m&p's an average of 1:300 so I would go through an average of 77 give or take a bit. Then there is the cost for fails. My pot lvl is 71 and fails do happen. If someone sells higher or lower then the numbers will change to some extent as well.

 

Each skill has its advantages and disadvantages, as they should. It's hard for me to say if I really think that they should be changed at all. Each skill is different on so many levels that they would each need to be looked at and evaluated on their own merits to really know. I am a complete all arounder and have a fairly good knowledge of all skills(summoning and engineering being ones I am least familiar with). But even being an all arounder it is hard for me to say what could be changed to even the differences between the skills on a fair xp basis.

[Beowulf]

Perhaps you have your sell price higher than mine. I sell in quantities of 2k+ so I charge 14gc each. I'll check my math.

 

23k * 14 = 322kgc

 

23k vials = 115,000

23k wine = 17,250

4.6k fp's = 55,200

cost excluding fails or m&p breakage = 187,450gc

 

So if I harv all the other ingreds I would make 134,550gc

 

fighters cannot calculate profit - there is no defenite profit as mixers can make, which is the problem with fighting, but evenly balanced out with exp imo

 

fighters always experience armor breakage which is compelte random, so they are unable to get a defenite calculation of profit, cause that little money they get may have to be use to replace armor - maybe this is to be made worse for fighters as nmt may be breakable? but rightly so for the good of the game imo

 

for example, i know someone who harvest gc from yeti and got ~30k, but then had titanium greaves broken

[Zamirah]

 

That's correct, I'm not lvl 90 yet I have only mixed a total of 4 torsos, 4 cuisses, 5 greaves, and 2 helms. I crit failed 1 greaves and food failed a torso and greaves. I have stopped leveling manu unless it is a scholars day for reasons that don't pertain to this thread. Actually, one reason does, I do not receive enough requests to mix bronze/dragon armor to make it worth my time to level, imo.

I stopped levelling manu and crafting for same reason, why have a high level if you only make 3-4 COLs a month.

 

I been thinking of that maybe Tankel and Heavybears should not fix or destroy damaged armor and weapons.

Maybe they should find out which part was broken and give you the unbroken back.

 

A tit plate is :

4 Enriched Fire Essence

5 Hydrogenium Bar

5 Leather

6 Thread

30 Titanium Bar

If you have bad luck is the hydro bars broken, if you are lucky the thread.

Then you can buy the missing ingreds and go to a manuer and have a new plate made.

Same for COL amd COM.

[SleepyDragon]

One big thing that hasn't been mentioned in terms of the cost of making any items, particularly if you make/harv all the ingrediants yourself, is the cost of the books you must read in order to make or harvest the ingrediants for manuable items.

 

As a self sufficient top 50 crafter I have had to read all the mining/molding/smelting books, the crystal mining/processing books, the alching books to make the essences required for crafting items and that's even before I actually started to spend money on all the crafting books, of which there are many.

 

As far as I am aware, although there are fighting books, you aren't required to read them in order to fight.

 

The other big cost, as has been mentioned, is the cost of pps on nexus.

To harv wolfram and hydro for CoMs and CoLs you need inorganic 6, to make the crowns you need arti and magic nexus 5.

In order to wear high level armour you only need to put pps on human nexus.

 

Up until I had read all the crafting/mining books most of the gc I made went on buying my next book.

 

Manuers also have to read a vast number of books if they want to make all the manuable items in the game as do potioners, alchers and now engineers.

While some of these books are available as monster drops that means we buy them from fighters so the trade goes both ways.

 

I'm not complaining about this, half the challenge for me personally was to get the gc for books and pps for nexus. The other half of the challenge was to get the levels to be truly self sufficient in the game.

 

We all come into the game with free choice about how we spend our time and what we chose to do in EL. That's one of the best things about the game for me. I really don't care what other players are doing or how much money they get as long as I have enough to achieve what I want to in the game. If I find a way to make gc doing something I enjoy I don't see the point of resenting other people who have found a different way.

[Entropy]

Well then, how about you propose a high level manufacturing item that is constantly in demand?

[conavar]

Well then, how about you propose a high level manufacturing item that is constantly in demand?

 

Add two posts together:

 

A breakable NMT's cape for manu

 

New saving stones for craft

 

or maybe increase the chance of making a rare item for each level over 100

Edited July 10, 2007 by conavar

[Gohan]

Q: Well then, how about you propose a high level manufacturing item that is constantly in demand?

 

A: We can't.

 

-Blee

 

P.S. Just something I actually thought of about this topics title. EL isn't really a fighters game, yes. Every end product goes to fighters. But there are many other games out there, go and try them. And see how many of them let you do much other then fighting. For a quick example, go try something like Conquer Online or whatever. That's 100% fighting, no choice to do anything else. And EL is a fighters game?

Edited July 10, 2007 by BleedingSoul

[Thyralax]

I consider myself an all rounder with lvl 60+ in all skills except for summoning (no nexus for it anymore) and engineering (new skills). I have recently started training my atk/def exclusivly im fighting Cycs now and have been for a long time and i have to say i have never had so little money.

 

Sure i could fight to earn higher GC at a loss of xp or i can fight to earn xp and at a loss of gold.

I cant comment on fighting Yeti as well i cant fight them But if a player has spent that much time getting to fight them cudos to them they have played hard and earnt that.

 

Sorry but this whole topic seems to be a us poor mixers type (again) i have always avoided commenting on this type of thread before.

 

Below i have labeled Fighter & Mixers. this is not putting some player types into niches but rather.

Fighters: people whos current aim is to level a/d.

Mixer: Some one who makes a finished product to sell.

 

I can train any skill except for Attack/defence/magic and i come away with good xp and lots of gold.

 

When I train Attack/defence/magic i either

earn some okay gc (quick kill the clops with a ti long) with poor xp or

I can earn good xp (fighting with branch or bone, something about poking him in the eye with a stick makes me happy )but I break so much more equipment like that and at least triple my he/srs consumption. so i always come away at a loss. Its okay for me i make my own armour/essence/potions. But if i didnt/couldnt i would then spend time harvesting to buy replacements.

 

Mixing (same holds true for any skill that i have tried)

Mine my own items: Gc Fantastic, xp well rounded over 2 or more skills

Buy a bit/mine a bit: Xp is good, profits are good, Average time

Buy items i need to mix: Profit fair to a loss (depending on the item im making), xp great in a very short time.

 

Its not this type of player has it easy because he does this or this player has it worse becasue he does this. Its all about choice and playing it smart.

 

To me Gc is a means to earn more xp!

After all we dont need to earn gc to pay the rent, or taxes etc. So either we hoard it to go hey look i have 500k gc I rocks. or that gc is then funnelled into earning more xp, which turns into more gc.

 

Fighters:

Spend incredible ammounts of time & gold geeting the needed xp to fight higher level creatures. If they can finnaly earn some good gc whilst killing them Huzzah! Think of the countless hours they have put into levelling, and the ammount of gc they have scrapped together over the months to buy on market armour, potions, essence, meds, crowns.

 

Mixers:

Spend incredible ammounts of time getting ingrediants to mix to earn xp. They have to make lower level items to earn that xp the gold from which then goes into books/buying more ingrediants to make more items and earn more xp and gc.

 

But Fighters earn more xp than those that just mix and have higher carry caps form all the overall levels.

Thats very true, they do earn more xp fighting than mixing. However in all honesty they need more xp to fight higher levelled creatures. Yes they have higher carry caps on average. Which works int he mixers favor .

More ores.minerals on market keeping the price lower.

Fighters sell the ores (in large numbers) -> mixers buy the ores -> mixers make the essence, armours, potions -> fighter buy the finished product back. The gc passes from one to the next as does the xp.

 

In conclusion:

It seems to me that we are all the same. Every one spends vast ammounts of time working at our prefered skill(s). We all have to ride the rough along with the smooth like in the real world! We all play hard to get better in our chosen fields(s). So lets not single out this group or that group. Instead why arnt we teaming up togther? Why arnt those who fight and those who mix working together? I'll give you 2k silver, 1k mums, and some gc for time and food will you make my He for me. Hey Mr Fighter could you haul this bag of quartz for me ill give you a discount on all my srs. Co-operation vs conflict. Like in the real world one hand has to help out the other.

 

The only thing i would suggest to help is to have more npc's that buy items.

I would love to be able to

Crafting: sell my c1 rings & diss rings (even if for only 60gc each)

Manufacture: sell Steel chain (500gc), Steel shield (300gc), Ti chains (4.5kgc) Iron plate (4k, 4.5k, 8k), Titanium shorts (470gc), Serp swords (5kgc), ring/med molds (45gc each)

 

I like to work via npc's when ever i can so as to not flood the market with items. Having made lots of iron sword, shields, steel longs to sell to trik. (the money of which i put into leather and thread usually) i would love to make a few different items like those above. This would imo set a small price on these items as well as help people level skill's with a little variety giving them more options with out the feeling that mixers are only working for the fighters. However there are probably reasons I havnt seen to prevent this from happening.

 

Just my opinion on the whole thing.

One last thing:

 

Congratulations on everyone who has earned a level wether it is in attack 16 /defence 105, crafting 60 whatever. Like every other character you have PLAYED hard to earn that level. So feel good about it and dont look at your nieghbour with envious eyes to see if they are better than you. Rather look at them with a competetors gaze. Think of the effort you put into it and remember that he has done the same. You may vow to catch him or even surpass him which is good, the spirit of competition lives on. But dont belittle each others achievements because we are all the same. Here to play and enjoy the eternal lands.

[CelticLady]

Well then, how about you propose a high level manufacturing item that is constantly in demand?

 

First, I never said constantly in demand, but for there to be more demand than once a week would be nice. Of the dragon armor I listed that I have mixed, 1 helm, 1 torso, 2 greaves and 2 cuisses I mixed for Acelon the same day (actually, it might have been the next day) the armor was manuable. I still have a helm, greaves and cuisses in my inventory. That leaves 2-3 other pieces that I mixed for others. So, to me, that isn't really much demand. I also know full well that I'm not the only game in town when it comes to manu, so others are making the armor as well. But of the people I have talked to about it, their responses are pretty similar.

 

I know that you spend a lot of time trying to have good ideas for weapons and armor that the fighters will love using. Weather it be for training or pk. But it isn't always received as intended I think. I know that you don't just say "oh dragon armor, this looks like a good recipe for it. Cool, done now". Both bronze and dragon armor are the highest rec lvl to make and the least in demand. I also understand that you keep track of stuff like that and change the stats etc, accordingly.

 

I have never posted a suggestion in suggestion forum. I don't feel that anything I could possibly come up with would be any better than you.(At least, I haven't thought of anything yet) I have my ideas of things to change but most are not completely thought through and my perspective on things is skewed to an extent. When I train a/d I'm on cycs. If they break my armor then I just know I'll have to make more later. If they degrade my CoL then I sell it and make the ingreds to have a crafter make a new one. Same goes for SR and ess use, I make my own. For me, it's not that big of a deal. But I know that people who are more stictly fighters usually harvest and sell/trade that to replace armor and ess etc.

 

On the other hand, a lot of mixers can't buy their ingreds for the items we use to level and sell that product for a profit(or for the items we make to sell for that matter). So, they are not really profiting from their skill, but harvest/alch. Much like fighters do from what I hear. There in lies the only problem I see. The xp difference. Mixers spend tons of time harving to make their level item to grind the levels away and get less xp/hour of actual mixing time. While fighters harvest for loads of time to afford what they need to grind levels but get more xp/hour of actual training time. Fighters have the difference that after they gain a/d levels and their xp starts to drop, they can TS and stay on that mob longer. After that, they can move up to the next strongest mob and make more xp. Mixers for the most part can't. In general there are specific items for each skill we use to level(there are exceptions of course, Blodoks uses fur pants while most people I know use leather helms and such.), and we are stuck there. Mixers have a choice of using a school at total gc loss, but our xp is always constant. And personally, I'm not complaining about it. I worked hard and my oa is 120. It's been my choice to be an all arounder, my choice to put 35pp in nexus, my choice to knowingly not be able to train past fluff with my chosen char build unless maybe if I get neg perks.

 

I'm not even sure you can lump all mixers together in to one pool. Each mixing skill is different. That's why I said previously that I thought each skill would have to be looked at individually and evaluated on it's own merits and that maybe nothing needed to be changed. I'm absolutely fine if nothing changes.

 

So I'll see if I can summarize this long winded post and conclude. I am not claiming to be an expert, I have a general knowledge of all aspects of the game. My views are certainly different than a lot of other players because I train all skills. That may put my experiences of some skills at a disadvantage and I may not see the whole picture. I am not particularly complaining about how the skills are now. I don't have an idea for a new manu/pot/alch/craft item that would be both high lvl and have a decent demand. My personal experience is that all skills have their positive and negative sides to them and each have their own difficulties to level. And after all this I hope my post was in some way helpful to the thread. If not, then I'm sorry for blathering on so long I tend to ramble sometimes.

[Kobor]

I really doubt that. from that 23k. if you can sell 1k at 15 gc ea, you should consider yourself a lucky person. And if you sell to npc at 13 gc (not 14 like Tempest said) that a lot of muling. Getting all the ingreds, mixing, muling is atleast 60 real hour

 

@Tirun

 

Dont forget that making those SR's will get you around ~190k gc profit

even if you buy all ingreds you still make ~130k profit

 

8-9 fluffy hours is max 15kgc of GC drops

[sithicus]

BTW, the highest manufacturing level is under 90!. And I seriously doubt that even top 10 manu can consistently, without fail/ingredient lose make the dragon armor. And you want higher level items? LOL

 

I am not sure if this aspect of EL needs to be touched at all, if we just accept the fact that manu 90 is way more impressive than a/d 90 and OA level is best gained through combat then so be it.

 

But there are some issues. In any of the mix skills, people use a handful of items to gain skill. Dragon armor is not such an item. At best, the ability to make dragon armor is one of the things that come with high skill. I think CL's signature is pretty clear as to which item is the one that is used for training. Adding something that is 20 levels higher than dragon armor would change zero about training unless it is a cheap item with tons of xp.

 

To be a good 'skillgain' item, the item needs to be not very expensive. (ring of glacmor for example, is roughly 2xp/value, makes it 'good skill item'). This is because expensive means ingredients are rare or much work.

 

Also, the item needs to sell to NPC for a price that is near it's cost to make. Or, perhaps, be in very large demand for some reason (s2e). Any item that meets these requirements, will do for training. Any other item will not be made for training, only for use.

 

Of course, any change in this would suck for people who gained skills the oldfashioned way, but gaining summon or craft right now is a walk in the park compared to what it was a year ago so it's not new.

[Mr.Mind]

Eternal lands always was a fighter's game. All other skills are designed to support fighters.

[Hex]

Blee has a very good point. This game has so much more you can do than most other MMOs. That variety makes this game more social, more complex, and just downright more fun.

 

Having made 100k leather helms , I can attest to the challenge of leveling mixing skills. But Mr. Mind is also right: Most of the items in game support fighting. It's the biggest driver of the economy. Personally, I see no problem with that. IRL, the fighters got all the attention and glory, and the tradesfolk eked out a living.

 

But you get to choose: You can be a pure fighter with only human nexus. You can be a self-supporting fighter, with nexus to fight, make SR, make HE. You can be some other specialist. (I reset to become a fighter who can manu.) Or you can be a rounder. (On a side note, I wish fewer people chose to be rounders, the economy would be more lively.)

 

I think once dynamic maps are added, a whole new dimension will be added to the game. Building l33t cribs will be a new motivator, adding new item demand that will drastically change the nature of this game's economy. For the better.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people talking about their status: "I can kill chims!" "My [insert skill here] level is 90!" "I have [insert insane amount here] gc!" Soon we will see: "My house is now two storeys tall!" "I'm a city councillor!" or "We pillaged [insert faction name here]'s city!" It will be a new status motivator that will drive the economy probably near as much as fighting, IMO.

[Tuver]

one answer although I understand it would be hard if not impossible to apply to the game the way it is: make it were the level of manu affects the stats of the weapon. so that if CL with her manu of 90 (for arguement shake) makes a iron sword it does far more damage and gives much better bonues than an iron sword made at level 20. To apply this would require massive changes to the game I know. but when you think about it. it would make it where people who already own a cutlass would but another cutlass from someone like CL because it would do more damage and it would make it worth peoples time to level manu. the same would work for potion for crafting. maybe apply the same to summoning, the higher level summoner you are the stronger your creatures.

[ttlanhil]

Unique or levelled items have come up before. It's not really feasible to do with EL's current design, beyond the existing rares (there are probably a few pages of explanation somewhere on the forums )