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Entropy

What is your opinion about multiplaying?

Would you like to be able to multiplay?  

486 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to be able to multiplay?

    • Yes
      246
    • No
      211
    • I don't care
      22
  2. 2. If the previous answer was yes, what kind of multiplaying would be ok?

    • Economical only (trades, muling, item swaps)
      141
    • Combat only (including PKing, magic)
      6
    • Both of them
      113
    • Neither (voted no)
      219


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In our guild there is family that is playing. Jammaster and his kids kagen,jaxbot,alxyndyr.

I was never on line at the same time with alyx and i wanted to encourage her by giving her a bp cape and some others items. So i was afraid to give the items to jammaster because i was afraid that they would be banned.

The same thing was happening when we had guild projects. 1 col for each member etc. And jaxbot and kagen were afraid to trade. Jamm and his family are one of nicest persons i met in el. Isn't this a bit unfair for them?

 

If illegal multi will be allowed several new rules can be added.

 

1.More harvesting events

2.Maximum 1-2 alts

3.You can trade only at storage

4.Maximum emu for the alt char 300

5.Alt cant take perks like mm

6.If the main char has anti then alt cant take negs.

And i am sure that ent will thing additional and better rules than me.

 

"Eternal Lands has no fixed classes or professions, so you can always do new things and develop new skills without having to create a new character!"

 

That description was good 2 years ago. Now u need additional pps for summoning and summoning stones, additional pps for potioning, human 10 for arti cape, additional pps for crafting, enginnering inorganic artificial.

 

Your reason for wanting "illegal multi" to be allowed is so you can trade items to your friends... Then you go on to say that the maximum emu for additional characters would be 300, which would probably rule out trading with your friends anyhow. I think you forgot your point somewhere in your argument.

 

These rules you specify would require a mod team of 100 people to keep track of all the characters, whom their alts are, whom their friends are, who has which perk, etc. It's completely unrealistic.

 

 

 

Thats why i said that ent knows better than us which rules to add. More harvesting events are not unrealistic at all, is it?And if u rent preconfigured alt's or ant's from an npc or learner with maximum emu is this unrealistic too?Maybe it is, maybe its not.

Its impossible to buy 3 human nexus removal stones,5 summoning removal stones or 5 will removal stones or whatever so as i said that was a good description years ago. Unless new negs will be added.

Edited by agis29

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I think the rules as they stand are sensible, trading or pvping yourself seems alittle empty.

 

However, I have one alt-char that I train sometimes, perhaps to be a bot someday. To avoid middle-man trade conflict I don't trade with anyone bar players I have never met as kailo, and since the alt just trains she doesn't meet anyone :P Meaning she is fighting with no boots for a long time now.

 

Even despite this, I still think the rules are right.

 

To people who have argued in the past about any of the rules shouldn't be applicable to them, I would say that breaking a rule is always cheating since the rule is obided by by the majority of 'good' players, thus giving you an unfair advantage.

 

 

To avoid some other possible issues, my only second character is named kalismoonkey . Originally a rethink of my nickname into a roleplay name :)

 

[i hate pollen]

 

 

PS to agis29

As far as I am aware, it is possible for jammaster and family to provide proof of their seperate identities to Ent, after which there should be no problem with trading, therfore no stress.

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I voted no, largely due to the fact that it's been tried before. Bit by bit the restrictions were increased to the point where again now multi-play is not allowed in any form. As the restrictions kept getting tighter, players kept getting more and more confused as to what they were allowed and what they were not allowed to do.

 

Keep it simple. If multi-play is allowed, allow it all. If it is not allowed, disallow all multi-play. This includes multi-play between family members/house-mates/room-mates/pets/alien invaders.

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This includes multi-play between family members/house-mates/room-mates/pets/alien invaders.

 

I know there are players who would attempt to use these to cheat, but there are also a large number of people who genuinely live with fellow EL lovers. (If I could get my mum to play I would :icon13:) Some of these people are even couples, those who are bound by vowels to share all with their spouse. I know some people do try to cheat, but to say that a married couple cannot trade is unfair on the betroved of EL.

 

In my opinion anyway. in responce to the last post :medieval:

 

Overall, the system is still good how it is.

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This includes multi-play between family members/house-mates/room-mates/pets/alien invaders.

 

I know there are players who would attempt to use these to cheat, but there are also a large number of people who genuinely live with fellow EL lovers. (If I could get my mum to play I would :medieval:) Some of these people are even couples, those who are bound by vowels to share all with their spouse. I know some people do try to cheat, but to say that a married couple cannot trade is unfair on the betroved of EL.

 

In my opinion anyway. in responce to the last post :)

 

Overall, the system is still good how it is.

 

You can't be serious...

 

Just leave sharing out of the vowels if you live with your EL lovebunny :icon13: This also brings up the issue of EL pre-nups and expensive divorce settlements. Not to mention who gets the kid-ants and when, and even feeding/clothing them.

 

*starts to freak out*

 

S.

 

PS yet to vote, but in essence agree with the points molime and asgnny have raised. Same ip trading seems to me only valid if it is distinct people on the characters, and without a way to verify this, short of a fingerprint plate or retinal scan, perhaps the status quo is best.

 

edit: typo's

Edited by Spleenfeeder

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For starters, i voted yes, only economically

Me and my girlfriend have only one computer, but both an own account.

Already more people stated before that they would love to trade with their relatives or friends.

It is the same for me.

For many reasons that are already stated I would however hate it if people would get hundreds of alts working for eachother.

I think however that it is very well possible to control the amount of alts one has.

For instance, filling in a form that should be checked by an admin or something that is required to interact with eachother could control the amount of chars.

Also making a rule that a maximum of 2 (or 3) accounts per ip are allowed to interact should control a part.

I have no notice how it should be controlled.

If it would be impossible to control, then I would vote "no" still.

Also if it would bring heaps of extra work to admins, I'd say "never mind then"

I mean, I'm used to not interacting with my girlfriends char, so I wouldn't be bothered if multi-ing would stay forbidden...

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I've read the majority of the last seven pages of posts, and don't even know how to vote. In the perfect world, it would be possibly for me and mine to all play EL at the same time, participating in Guild projects and helping each other with no fear. (When our friend comes over there are 4 EL-friendly systems and 5 different people with characters all wanting to play)

Yet at the same time, Those with the cheating mindset that would only destroy the spirit of EL could be contained and stopped. How this is to happen? I don't know. Limiting character accounts per IP would interfere with those of us that currently have EL- LAN get to gethers, and also interfere in future plans. (Seriously, when we build our house, it will have a LAN room) If only 2 or 3 people from one IP can play at the same time, what's the point?

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*sigh* I meant, what would be the point in designing, building, and outfitting a room for a purpose (EL-LANs) that was not-allowed?

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. If only 2 or 3 people from one IP can play at the same time, what's the point?

 

 

this is the point that gets me worried ( Shallara is just an example) how many alts should people be allowed to have ? 1,3,10, unlimited ? or would it be based on case by case basis therefore increasing the mods workload.

 

I am against the idea purely for the community aspect of the game, Economy wise personally i dont care if player A has 3million gold pieces or if player B spends $500 in the EL shop,that doesnt stop me enjoying the game and fair play to them if they can do it.

 

people have said " The community will be fine, nothing to worry about,player wont want to talk to themselves". that was never the point, think the point is if player are running 2 or 3 alts at once then they are not going to have the time to interact with other players.

 

If the idea is allowed then there needs to be a set limit on how many alts a person can have and that should

2 or 3 (including there main) and i havent a clue if it is feasible programming wise but i would like to see an auto-log out button.. ie: if player A is afk for a set amount of time the game logs them off.

then hopefully we wont have 100's of alts all afk at storage or npcs blocking the way for others.

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People will do things that we would never consider fun, and make playing a game pointless in many peoples eyes...yet they'll do it B)

And then they will complain that the game is boring, and for them the faulty part will be the game, not their gaming style. :)

___

On topic: I voted yes, for economical and trades and stuff only.

Reason: Its not already too hard to do this kind of stuff this days. Lets imagine a player who has 2 chars, A1 and A2. He can use A1 only to harvest and get gc, and then sell it for $$ for player B. He then uses that money to buy stuff for A2 char in $$$ from a player C (who does the same, sell gc or items for rl cash) or from the shop.

 

And its all legal, afaik. If the economy would be ruined for that kind of stuff, it would be already ruined. Right, right?

 

Oh, and i tried to voted no specifically to multi on fighting, etc. Once i got 2 chars of a same player ganging me in kf. I felt like 'cheated', and i don't think that there is a good reason to allow that specifically.

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I really see no issue with multy playing and never had, but its always been illegal so i keep my chars seperate. But wouldn't it be great to transfer some of the hard earned items or money from one char to the next legally? I would certainly love it, and its not like its cheating cause you had to work to get wat was on the other char in the first place.

 

For combat, that would just suck cause all the people who dont have anything better to do would make a bunch of mid or high lv chars and just camp out all the arenas at once ruining pk experiences for everybody else.

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Giving it a try could cause irreparable harm to the economy, at least in the near future. Players would undoubtedly use alts to haul tons of supplies over to main characters. As soon as it becomes legal, even for 10 minutes, it is already too late to go back.

 

speaking from experience, presently it takes a LONG time to get any quantities that can reasonably be classed as

tons

into a bag, even with a team of helpers from a number of guilds. To then mule the quantities is also extensively time consuming for all those involved, particularly as not all involved will have the emu to mule even if they were more than adequate at mining.

 

Whilst the arguement could be made that if each person had an alt there as well (allowed under new multiplaying rules0 it would increase the amounts exponentially, it has to be remembered that those same people are all (in the case of the sessions I have been involved with, at least) still entitled to the same % share of the total haul. And since that is then divided between their alts AND their main chars in order to keep all their chars working to potential, then its no different to their main chars getting their share in the first instance. AND ITS STILL WITHIN THE SAME TIMEFRAME. 4 hours of mining with 4 chars means 2 hours muling with 3 decent emu'd chars. 4 hours muling with 8 chars will still need 2 hours muling with 6 decent emu'd chars, all of which get equal shares of the total.

 

Of course not all the guilds operate their mining sessions in this manner and no doubt there will be many variations, but I dont think the impact in view of group sessions using alts will be all that different, if the alts need maintaining at a rate that keeps in ratio to the requirements of the Main chars.

 

- PYE

Edited by Pyewacket

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gonna vote NO, cause of most of the reasons mentioned.. although a workaround for family member's trading from the same IP would be good, it's hard to distinguish the genuine from the cheaters.. a price to pay :)

 

about the economical impact of having many alt's.. it is pretty big from my experience with playing alt chars.. money making is really easy and it would ruin the market and EL economy from my point of view(assuming players can work it properly).

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Nin1 (main char) harvests dung. (yay! i get the good jobs :))

Nin2 harvests Branches

Nin3 harvests RR

Nin4 harvests RSD

Nin5 harvests Sulfur

 

I could prolly run 8-10 more cliets from this machine alone. *dusts off other PC's*

 

I could go into how each one does this and that(this is just one tiny example). You can prolly paint the picture of what can be done.

 

I understand the rules for this type of multiplaying aren't established yet. That's the whole problem with this discussion. Everything is either based off the current rules or speculation.

 

The last MMO I played allowed each account 5 players.

 

Eventually they allowed macroing. It ruined it beyond repair(hehe beyond).

 

Sadly, I helped it end(Well, EA did that for the most part. Cutting funds from it to put towards The Sims Online and Ultima Online). I unknowingly helped. B) I wrote a macro that would allow anyone to get the best weapons in the game without even being there.

 

The next step after this(based on my own speculation) would be to allow macroing.

 

Give greedy people the right to be even more greedy and you'll see what turns up. I've seen it before and I would rather not see it again.

 

The only thing I could see that could justify this would be somthing like this. Multiplaying from the same client.

 

Everything here is just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

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Big concern for lot of people seems to be clogging up access to resources/storage with alt mules sitting around. How hard would it be to program an automatic grue for those afk a certain time limit in those places? Maybe need this already as lot of folks sit for hours in spots they are not really using but that others may need. (Forgive me devs, please if that would be difficult/impossible. I don't claim to be a programmer.)

 

Thing is the rules, as they are are now, are only partially enforceable, it appears, and unenforcable rules are never going to be fair and will always create a great deal of frustration for those trying to enforce them.

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Big concern for lot of people seems to be clogging up access to resources/storage with alt mules sitting around. How hard would it be to program an automatic grue for those afk a certain time limit in those places? Maybe need this already as lot of folks sit for hours in spots they are not really using but that others may need. (Forgive me devs, please if that would be difficult/impossible. I don't claim to be a programmer.)

 

Thing is the rules, as they are are now, are only partially enforceable, it appears, and unenforcable rules are never going to be fair and will always create a great deal of frustration for those trying to enforce them.

 

 

Just press Enter.

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When you create a system that is easy to cheat, people are going to cheat it. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the people, but the system needs a change. When you get to the point where the cost of enforcement is more than the cost of repealing the rule, then you know you've set up something wrong.

 

I remember when the no multiplay rule was established. At first, it was very loosely enforced and vague enough for people to get around it, which is another way of saying that multiplay was being indirectly encouraged. That made any later enforcement only that much more difficult. It eventually leads to the problem we have now.

 

Multiplaying, for a single person, is not actually that difficult. I once knew a guy (who has long since quit playing the game - no it's not me), that could run 6 characters silmutaneously, but he would never miss anything that anyone said to those characters. In fact, each character had it's own roleplay and he would even chat among them. He never macroed. Each one of those characters he built on his own, by hand. He was clearly breaking the multiplay rules, but never caught. Why? By the wonders of the internet, those characters showed up on different IPs. It is very difficult for moderators to pick up on that. It could be done, but the amount of time involved would probably not be worth it.

 

Then, on the other side, there are the families who play EL. There are actually many more families that play than people who play multiple characters all by themselves. But the families are truly getting shafted. Why can't two brothers trade with each other without being questioned, or sometimes even banned? If EL is meant to be some type of a community game, then people who live together should be able to play it without much trouble. It is a waste of moderation to be hunting around for multiplayers when the majority of them are innocents.

 

This is a very interesting problem. Here you have something that will continue no matter how hard you fight it because the incentives will always be large enough to outweigh the punishment. But then the innocent people will eventually get tired of being caught in such a rule, and decide to go elsewhere.

 

In RL, Paris Hilton got herself out of jail while there are still many people serving more time for less crime. Is that what we want EL to be? For the time being, there is no better solution than to repeal the rule until someone discovers an effective way to enforce it. If there is a huge number of money sinks (and there already is), nobody will get terribly wealthy from multiplaying, which appears to be the biggest fear of it.

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well i read all the posts, everyone seems to have valid points for yes and for no...(1)anyone who is determined has already found loopholes/ and or ways around the rules , someone mentoined selling gc for $$ on alt ,then using procedes to finance main char, i promise you this is and has been going on for a while....many people dont like the fact that $$$ makes the world go round (sorry but it does) .........................Some people seem to invision evil madmen with armys of harvestors constantly and relentlessly crushing the market ...... this is stupidity, thoses alts are already out their harvesting , the only difference would be the main char could get the profit............A big proble in this game (imo) is that all the armour/capes/weapons w/e else is expensive and NO ONE HAS MONEY......i think that this would actually help the market and not destroy it.....WHY U ASK......Because PEOPLE will now have money to buy all that shit youre selling......and then what do you know people might have a bit more fun.....but as with any change some will like it and some wont, looking at the votes it sees to be 50/50 , but w/e noone likes change ......

 

But just Highlight some points i made

(1)Most of the alts are already in game, they just dont trade with the main , or they just sell for $$ and use it for main (therefore their woldnt be much more stuff for sale on market then usual)

 

(2)in-game items are expensive and most people cant afford them without making big sacrafice's , this would help people gather some more gc to use for pk or w/e the prefer

 

(3)if some madman were to have a harvestor army it would take all his time to the point where it isnt worth it.....

Edited by mufossa

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...

Note that i did not try to say that the practice is evil or is somewhat wrong. I just tried to say it happens.

 

Many profets were saying that the economy would be ruined and the community will lose their fun, etc. Note that you can do something similar already, and where is all those alts destroying the community and/or the economy??

 

That rule interpretation going away is one less annoyance to mods and players, and would affect little the economy/community (again, if does affect, where is the alts?).

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As you know I voted yes. This whole thing with people paranoid about ARMIES of alts is ridiculous. This is just a question about multiplaying in general. Entropy already said there would have to be limits set. He started out the whole thread with a limitation already set. Yes some people in the game will go the power play route and spend less time talking to everyone else and have fewer interactions. MOST of the people in the game will not dump their friends for an 'army' of alts and if they did then who needs them anyway.

 

Asgnny:

It only takes a few players with a few alts to make a significant impact on the economy. Single players have done it before, let alone the possibility of entire guilds with several alts harvesting raw materials.

Tirun:

The economy is dead. People don't use the equipment they have now without a NMT cloak because they cannot afford breakage because everything they use is too hard to make and their are not enough suppliers to make the equipment affordable. A lot of people don't even use their best equipment WITH a NMT cloak. The money sinks in game have taken a lot of money out of the economy but as Entropy pointed out that was to fix a temporary problem. What is wrong with people being able to afford to actually use their equipment??

 

 

It is not like too much gold coin is being generated in game. All of the new books coming out make almost everyone in game poor as do the increases on the old books prices. REAL economists will tell you that the only way for an economy to survive is if it grows. There is no stagnation economically. You are growing or you are dying. We need higher production in game to meet growing demand and to have volume reduce prices or make enough money available to more players to make the game fun again.

 

Asgnny:

Who is going to sit at each npc to make sure a given player isn't logging on and off from there? Where is the line drawn? If an alt fills up on fruit before helping a main buy potions from Mira, does that make it legal?

Tirun:

Last time I checked it was easier to find log in locations skill levels to see if someone is camping an NPC than trying to search chat and trade logs to see if someone was cheating. This seems to be sensible to me but you can tell me if I am wrong. ;)

 

 

Asgnny:

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but EL is fairly unique in allowing any and all players to pursue all skills. There are no "mage" or "warrior" characters, restricted to a single type of play. There is no need to allow multiplay, as there are no restrictions, such as in those other games you elude to, which would force a need for multiple characters.

Tirun:

I will forgive you because you are wrong. Yes EL is fairly unique but for more reasons than that including limited storage, limited carry capacity and an experience system that makes it exceedingly difficult without tons of real life money to reach high levels in more than a couple of skills. How many of the top players in the game have more than one skill they are top 10 in? Even att/def the top 10 are not all the same players because some have sacrificed to raise one or the other. When I see anyone without tons of real life money and enough storage slots to do it at the top of all of the skills I will accept your argument.

 

 

Asgnny:

I completely disagree. What I would consider to be "legitimate" alts do need training -- however my issue is with the harvesting mules which would surface en masse, if such a rule change were put forth. The type of multiplaying you describe is already legal, so long as the items created by your alt(s) do not help your other characters.

Harvesting is already a (built-in, legal) macro. This was made as such instead of one click per item since illegal multiplay was...well, illegal. If alts are allowed to harvest using this long-time in-game feature, it will be just as bad as those ebul macroers, which you were happy to see banned.

Tirun:

Yes 'legitimate' alts do need training and that is what most alts already are. Players already play harvesting mules as their main characters let alone the legal alts being used to help their friends even if not directly helping themselves. It is legal and probably most players all ready do it to some degree.

Harvesting was changed from single click because the game simply outgrew single click as being feasible which was shown by the sit in at the Seridia underworld exit. The game requires 10s of thousands of ingredients now for some of the higher level items and that is why we have harvesting as a legal macro. It is also why mixing is now a legal macro too. The game grew beyond a basic single click system and it has nothing to do with multiplay.

 

The macroers were using illegal macros to do the legal macros which is what made them so bad. Multiplayers cannot get stuff to storage with out actually being there to run their character and their alts. I don't see why you would link the two.

 

 

Asgnny:

Giving it a try could cause irreparable harm to the economy, at least in the near future. Players would undoubtedly use alts to haul tons of supplies over to main characters. As soon as it becomes legal, even for 10 minutes, it is already too late to go back.

Some mods and devs may think it's a good idea. Not all. Additionally, unless otherwise noted, opinions by most of the people (mods/devs) you mentioned are nothing official unless explicity stated as such.

Tirun: Mufossa was very good at making it clear that 'tons' of stuff is not going to get moved anytime soon by anyone for just one person. Some people will use several alts to do this for themselves but MOST people in the game are part of this community because they prefer the interaction of the community over game play. I believe that the mods and devs who do think this is a good idea believe that all of these gloom and doom speculations are just massive overreactions and not in anyway realistic. If they didn't then they would not have even suggested it.

 

TirunCollimdus

edit: fixed quote flags

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When you create a system that is easy to cheat, people are going to cheat it. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the people, but the system needs a change. When you get to the point where the cost of enforcement is more than the cost of repealing the rule, then you know you've set up something wrong.

 

Well sure, creating a game where people can't, or gain very very little from multiplaying would be ideal. And how would you propose to do it? ;)

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I have a big headache now ;), there is so many pros and cons, this topic will probably never end, this may (*WILL*) be a major change (if it happens).

 

I was thinking, about the market value. In reality, the prices of items may actually go up. As people with MORE gc tend to offer MORE than the items are worth (I.E outbidding a person who doesn't believe in over offering on items).

 

For Example;

A player is selling 5,000 Fire Essences. She/He posts on the market channel. And is flooded with PMs (not sure if this would happen...?)

Several players would possibly offer 15-18k. Why? Because this is the normal price for Fire Essence.

 

But what if you have (say an engineerer) someone who REALLY wants those FEs, and doesn't care much for gc, because she/he is sitting a pile of gc, so this person offers say 20k.

 

If this person did it enough, (or enough people did this), then the Fire Essences will go up. And since there "will" be more GC in the game anyway, who says everything will be different? More gc, yes, but the prices have inflated BECAUSE people have GC to "out bid" people.

 

As I stated i HAVE played a couple games where a lot of currency became in the game due to multi account playing, this stuff does (and WILL) happen with changes like this.

 

On another note, I must say, WeaselTurd (spelt right?) deflated the prices of HEs, because he sells them for 6gc(least he did a couple weeks back, I havn't been on market recently), they used to be 7gc, you can't sell them for that much now, can you? By this point I mean, ONE person (or bot) can make a change to the market value of something, if they just offer the correct amount.

 

So if you're afraid people are gonna make so much gc, be afraid that item costs will also inflate.

 

My opinion of what "may" happen if this rule is lifted.

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If I got to decide this all by myself, I would like:

 

1. Required levels for all skills and items again.

2. Negative perks being level dependent.

3. Negative perks being more negative than they are, and more expensive as well.

4. Attributes capped at a set level, or linked to other attributes (can't put more than 10 pp's into phys and coord without putting x amount elsewhere before more can go into p/c as an example).

 

This way, if you want an alt/mule/storage-slot/deathbag-sitter/etc character, you need to work for it and earn it. This would effectively limit how many useful alts a person could make. It also would solve the problem we have of nothing for the high level players to work for.

 

And of course this way the legitimate families have no problems either.

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