Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Egarra

Summoning stones revisited :D

Recommended Posts

Due to the changing dynamics of the game, I feel that the summoning skill could use some minor adjustments to make it more attractive for players that may be interested in starting the skill and more balanced with other skills in the game. I’m hoping to spark some POSITIVE conversation that can lead to a better game for all of us. I’m only going to touch on summon stones, and only a few of those.

 

I will use the following average prices as a baseline for my conclusions. These prices have changed dramatically since summon stones were introduced to the game. This is due to a changing demand, and the fact that many of the items are rare.

 

LE: 4.5gc

ELE: 3.5k GC

EME: 4Kgc

EWE: 3.2K GC

EDE: 1.5k GC

Serpent Stones: 1.7Kgc

Bear fur :12gc

Thread: 2gc

SR: 15gc

Binding stone 6.8k

EMP: 450gc

White Tiger Fur: 75gc

FP 12gc

Gypsum 0gc (not many buy/sell it for summoning... Gypsum actually limits how fast you can level. Due to its heavy weight it is more efficient to haul ingredients to the gypsum and mix. I personally can haul ingredients for 15 tigers stones each trip.. so if time = money, then gypsum is expensive, many others can haul less then I do)

_________________________________________

Bear stone

Cost to make: ~130gc

npc buys :~125gc

cost to buy from NPC: 250gc

Usefull in PK: yes

 

Conclusion: The bear stone is good to level up summoning for those just starting to make stones, and can be sold to other players since there is a pk use. if sold to other players, then the cost of the stone from the NPC does not limit the marketability. For those that just want to level fast, they can sell straight to the npc, but they will lose money. My suggestion- leave as is :D

_________________________________________________

Tiger stone

Cost to make: 231gc

Cost to buy from NPC: 650 gc

Npc buys: 325gc

Useful in PK: yes

 

Conclusion: The Tiger stone is the summoners mainstay for leveling the skill. This stone actually requires a bit of cooperation with high A/D players, due to the difficulty of killing Tigers. The cost of tiger furs has risen dramatically due to the demand. Overall, this is a very balanced stone and profitable for summoners to make. There is a solid demand from pk’rs. Please leave this one as is.

_____________________________________________________

Phantom Warrior:

Cost to make: 1535gc

npc buys : no

cost to buy from NPC: 2500gc

Usefull in PK: yes, although very limited.

 

Conclusion: This stone is ok as is, but since it requires a rare ingredient and its marketability is limited and the NPC does not buy it, most summoners don’t level with this stone. Although that’s ok, the price from the NPC does not limit the ability to sell. My suggestion, leave as is.

_________________________________________________________

Fluffy:

Cost to make: 3545gc

npc buys : no

Cost to buy from NPC: 4000gc

Usefull in PK: Somewhat usefull

 

Conclusion: I have only been able to sell this stone when priced around 2-2.5K, due to the new costs associated with the ELE this stone is a loss to make. And when compared to the Sslesser which is much more powerful, its cost to make is way overpriced. Suggestion: Either change the ingredients to lower the cost of manufacture, or set the NPC to buy or a combination of both. If ingredients are left alone, may want to increase the cost of this stone so that summoners are not in direct competition with the NPC. Give the fluffy a ‘special skill’ like the tiger/bear stones to increase its value to pk’rs.

_______________________________________________________

SSlesser:

Cost to make: 2159gc

npc buys : no

cost to buy from NPC: 7000gc

Usefull in PK: ?? I don’t really know, but it does sell well, so I assume so.

 

Conclusion: leave as is, I believe that as the price of the serpent stones rise, this may need to be reevaluated. But, as it stands currently, Its good. The rare item required limits the amount of stones in the game and the cost from the NPC allows for some room for a price increase before summoners are in direct completion with the NPC.

_______________________________________________________

Yeti:

Cost to make: 13512GC

npc buys : no

cost to buy from NPC: 13k

Usefull in PK: yes

 

Conclusion: It is obvious that is costs more to make this stone then it costs to buy from the NPC. Recommend raising the price from the NPC to 26K. May want to remove it from the NPC all together and let only the summoners make the higher level stones.

 

_______________________________________________________

Arctic Chim:

Cost to make: 14859gc

npc buys : no

cost to buy from NPC: 16K

Usefull in PK: yes

 

Conclusion: Due to the rising cost of ingredients, this stone is very borderline to make. The price from the NPC is so low that summoners are in direct completion with the NPC. Raise the price from the NPC or remove from the NPC altogether.

____________________________________________________________

Giant:

Cost to make: 21312 gc

npc buys : no

cost to buy from NPC: 24K

Usefull in PK: yes

 

Conclusion: Same as for yeti and arctic chim, due to the raising prices of ingredients, summoners are in direct completion with the NPC.

_____________________________________________________________

Overall thoughts and suggestions:

 

Since summoners don’t get to create luck items like an ‘orc slayer of mana drain’ , I think that there should be some reasons for summoners to want to level besides the ability to make a stone that can be bought from the NPC. That is why I recommended removing the top 2-3 stones from the NPC and making them obtainable only from summoners. I would also like to see the ‘Dragon’ summonable, but NO stone for this creature. This would give a pk party a reason to include a summoner and even a better reason for summoners to level the skill. Before stones, summoning was really a pk skill, stones are great, but lets get the PK back into the skill.

Edited by Egarra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i used to summon(lvl 50) and have to agree with most of what's been said here. there isn't really much point to level more, tiger/bear stones are 90% success rate for me if i use summon pot and higher level stones are easy to get from npc and not really high demand.

 

would be interesting to see it get useful again as a skill, and i might get back to summon god which i left since i dont use it anymore :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m hoping to spark some POSITIVE conversation that can lead to a better game for all of us. I’m only going to touch on summon stones, and only a few of those.

Very interesting analysis. I'm not a summoner, but I enjoyed reading it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice analysis.

About Yeti and AC stones, imho they r not usefull if u can summon giant instead.

Giant makes 70-90 dmg in every round( no1 can block it and probably no1 ever will, so if some1 fight it and dont wanna get eaten very fast he uses mirror cape- with a lot of luck u can survive hug from 2 giants if u use extra manas, i managed it only once on test server ;p).

600 health of giant is also very important, coz even if u deal big dmg to them(60+ with thermal) it still takes a lot of time 2 kill it.

 

All in all, giant stone is something like that new bronze sword but a lot better(bronze sword breaks very fast+ makes about 20 more dmg in every hit than thermal).

Giants makes -def on ur opponent(multicombat so -5 or -15def if ur enemy was stupid enough 2 take icd ;>) and of coz deals big dmg 2( like i told before, around 70-90dmg in every hit, 100% hits in every person unless that person wears mirror cape).

 

About bear/tiger stones, they r very nice 4 pking ppl on pvp/training, in a normal fight most ppl use mag immune so tiger/bear wont make special effect on them, althought they still can catch ur opponents diss, so good 2 use that stones at the end of a fight(+ u can mana drain them :D ).

 

eMPi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-15def if ur enemy was stupid enough 2 take icd ;>

 

or brave enough :blush:

 

I think stones were a great maquievel idea to burn money in pk.

 

Giant stone rocks.

 

Good post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

very nice and most of it is right, but about giant stones:

1) why waste 24kgc (48kgc... bc hi lvl fighters can kill 1 summ giant) to kill someone, when he lost only rosto (15kgc) (I want greet bep this way :-)

2) Its good on no rosto day, but last 2 no rostos days I was some hours in KF with items ~200kgc and noone used it on me :-(

3) once I killed 2 summ giants only with mirror 6 hits for 100+ in row, pro EL "random" number generator :-)

 

and about tigers and cooldown, I must ask each time I cd anyone in PK, why he hadnt imunity?, but I still cd and kill ~4 players/day, so its very good stone :-)

 

and about icd, it should be -20 def in 2vs1, -25 in 3vs1 ... (based on 1 of many possibles constructions of this perk label) ... and what I wanted to tell, ah yes, if I summ giant I dont do it bc I want multi anyone \o/ (see 1)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

 

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

Edited by sithicus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egarra, excellent post, and excellent analysis (essay)! Good work and thanks - I'll redirect all my fellow conjourers here. :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

 

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

I don't agree with that last comment, since spider has a chance to freeze you if you don't pwn it with first hit. I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :devlish:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

 

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

I don't agree with that last comment, since spider has a chance to freeze you if you don't pwn it with first hit. I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :devlish:

 

Extra damage jumped into my mind. Like a damage ring or the Eagle Wing of extra damage.

 

"X was hit by the Armed Orc for 20 extra damage."

 

-Blee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :blush:

 

I agree about Orc Stone with Eagle prince... they are very good for us summoners to make and requires manuing help (since they use swords to be done) and would raise market value for this stones, they arent very usefull for anything since armed orcs have no special effects like mana drain or paralisis... altought it would mean that all armed orcs woulh have such effect would got influence in a/d training for a certain number of ppl that train on them... so maybe the point here isnt as simple.

 

But to make it buyable from NPC would help summoners...

 

IMO keep the stones as it is wouldnt be so bad anyway. Im happy as it is now, but some adjustments as the ones egarra posted could help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alltough it would mean that all armed orcs woulh have such effect would got influence in a/d training for a certain number of ppl that train on them... so maybe the point here isnt as simple.

 

There's a reason most people pvp the ogre/fluff gap, spawn time of armed orcs is the main reason. So, any special effect would put more people into pvp, which then stimulates pk :blush:

 

The armed orc stones used to be useful to hunt low level furs, like racoon and skunk and even feran horns, cause they follow real close, unlike animal type creatures. With the introduction of the max health based poison of summons, these got hit the hardest, cause they only live 3 minutes and the cost of the stone doesn't give enough furs anymore.

So maybe give them (and only the stones) 3 casts of restore, autoactivated at 20 health, which would give limited advantage in pk, but a lot of use in fur hunting. :devlish:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but a lot of use in fur hunting.

 

gotta agree here, summon was fun for drops and interesting too before the change in health loss. maybe health loss could be as it was before, but still high health loss on PK maps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the concern over some of the stones not being very useful, or being close to the NPC price.

However, the thing is that you also gain quite a lot of experience from them, so if you factor that in, it is still in your advantage to sell your stones at slightly below the NPC price, even if you lose a few gold coins for some stones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... you also gain quite a lot of experience from them, so if you factor that in, it is still in your advantage to sell your stones at slightly below the NPC price, even if you lose a few gold coins for some stones.

That sounds like: "buy your exp at NPC!" :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Summoning skill might be one of those overlooked skills but compared to crafting and manufacturing where all products have lower price than their raw ingredients... summoning is a dream...

 

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.

 

Point:

If your going to try and get some items/products revised and repriced and so on... then please consider all products rather than those that are allready pretty good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However, the thing is that you also gain quite a lot of experience from them

 

isn't it easier to just buy ingred for say 100 tiger stones instead of 1 giant stone, make tigers, get about 3 times the exp and a gc profit? :blush:

 

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.

 

you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

 

for pots, SRs. all i can say :devlish:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

 

for pots, SRs. all i can say :devlish:

Yes, how come you suddenly forget that time when it comes to other skills? :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.

 

you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

 

for pots, SRs. all i can say :blush:

 

Well let's say potioning was suppose to be the 3rd in place of worse income and exp...

LoL... are you saying your able to make 60 stones per hour which is umm over 10kgc if it's the low level stones, if you are talking about higher lvl stones were talking 20-60kgc...and making 20k or so exp... You sure are laughing at other skills by saying this... First off you make much more gc per hour than any other skill, second 20k exp takes 3 hours when it comes to harvesting.

 

Also you seem to have forgotten that polishing sapphires for example require ingredients worth about 23gc and give 60 exp. Getting all __WEs__+sapphires+sand papers(EXPENSIVE) needed takes years.... And compare that too let's say alchemys' HEs, 65exp and 6gc each or less...it's also "laughable"/not very logical (even considering that crafting is said in encylopedia to be a more expensive skill).

 

So I agree with ermabwed, where did the other skills go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LoL... are you saying your able to make 60 stones per hour which is umm over 10kgc if it's the low level stones, if you are talking about higher lvl stones were talking 20-60kgc...and making 20k or so exp...

 

hmm at my rates. 60 tiger stones ings(only ones made in bulk) 231gc*60 = 13860gc

6 summon pots(yes they're used) 6*50 = 300gc

 

cost : 14160gc.

 

End result : 55 tiger stones(fails counted). 55*350 (market prices) = 19250.

 

so we have 5090gc/h, depending on fail rate. and 55*346 = ~19k of exp.

 

now taking up crafting.. i do craft a bit, polished saphs for my levels. (lvl 38) WEs made by self, sanders and feasts from npc, and saphs harved too. good exp and a decent profit, ~8gc per polished saph which is nice. course it takes a bit more time, but it's still good for levels.

 

let's compare exp from crafting and stones.(polished saph vs. tiger stones)

Exp: 60/350

Profit: 8/120

 

so exp wise if we take 6 polished saphs per tiger stone.. we have ~48gc of profit, for the same amount of exp that a tiger stone would give.

 

but for some reason making 60 polished saphs is faster than 10 tiger stones if you count the walks..

 

i've tried a bit of crafting and trying to give what i've seen, can you relate your experiences with summon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

End result : 55 tiger stones(fails counted). 55*350 (market prices) = 19250.

 

so we have 5090gc/h, depending on fail rate. and 55*346 = ~19k of exp.

 

So with a 10% fails you have 5090gc/h + harv xp + summ xp. Omw to make some stones ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

have to level through that with 60-70% rate only to get there :P

 

looking at recommended levels for levelling items in the mixing skills that i've used:

Manu : Leather Helms(lvl 10)

Crafting : Polished Saphs(lvl 14)

Summon : Tiger stone(lvl 45)

 

so that's 31 levels higher.. takes a lot of work to get to that point where you can level and profit too.. at a huge gc loss to get there (350k~ gc loss to get to nearly summon 35ish where i was when stones came in game) :)

 

and tiger stones don't have instant buyer at 350gc or so. many times they've had to go to npc after a while of waiting, so let's cut the gc/h down to ~3700 ;)

 

EDIT: typos

Edited by 2coolfool

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2coolfool:

Well yes with your calculations you have allready proved my point... and as Grozni said, I guess we should be off to making stones... because we/I aren't/am not getting any profit from manu or crafting...

 

I only polish sapphires in the academy, it's FAR too slow otherwise exp wise... takes too many WEs, which is a pain to make when the numbers get big.

 

The problem is that like you said it's:

"

Manu : Leather Helms(lvl 10)

Crafting : Polished Saphs(lvl 14)

Summon : Tiger stone(lvl 45)

"

Those items are what all manuers/crafters do, there are no other products that are worth leveling with. With summoning there is a range of stuff, from low level to high level it changes all the way... The skills that need revisit are crafting and manufacturing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the concern over some of the stones not being very useful, or being close to the NPC price.

However, the thing is that you also gain quite a lot of experience from them, so if you factor that in, it is still in your advantage to sell your stones at slightly below the NPC price, even if you lose a few gold coins for some stones.

 

Absolutely true, there is great exp from individual stones. And if prices are not adjusted from NPC I'll keep doing business as usual and I'm ok with that. Sinice summoning is the only skill I currently do besides A/D I follow the changing dynamics of the skill closely. I made the post, hoping that feedback would incite some positive conversation to help the game.

 

Since the skill migrated from basically a PK skill (a skill that you had to work at to have an advantage in PK) to a type of manufacturing skill (where the stones are sellable and now anyone can do it) It would be nice if something high level could be summonable by top summonors. And I would have to say this for any skill. Every skill should/could have something special reserved for only the top players in that skill. What I imagine is a high level creature i.e Dragon, or what ever creature may someday be created, as a monster that is only summonable in the traditional method. This will bring something to the game for only summonors who may or may not be the best fighters in the game. In a pk event, I would expect summonors to be possibly protected by others in the PK party and actually encourage more of a group pk activity. This is not much different then placing hydro in a pk area. It was, iirc, designed to encourage more coorporation amongst players to obtain the hydro. And, this has been accomplished to some extent.

 

Summoning skill might be one of those overlooked skills but compared to crafting and manufacturing where all products have lower price than their raw ingredients... summoning is a dream...

 

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.

 

Point:

If your going to try and get some items/products revised and repriced and so on... then please consider all products rather than those that are allready pretty good.

 

Since I don't do the other skills, It is hard for me to compare. But I do know that the changing dynamics of the game affect all the skills, not just summoning, so you may have a very valid point. I was addressing the competition of pricing from the NPC not from other players. I'm sure that there could be summonors that may sell for half the cost of the ingredients, but then summonors would be in competition with other summonors. NPC's are a different story. If there are strong feelings concerning other skills then I might suggest a forum topic to address it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×