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Calling all manufacturers!

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I'm a manu'er and I want free books, free food, free exp, and free EL!! Oh, wait, EL is already free....

Maybe that's why I'm manure..... :angry:

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IMO problem is that there's no really difference either pottential buyer buys his brand new weapon/armor from manufacturer or "brand new" from reseller.

Now we have maximum two states of degradation, brand new or damaged. With that degrade rates must be relatively low, so you can use your stuff for quite long if you are lucky and when you don't need it or you need quick cash you can just sell it as new and make competition for manufacturers.

 

If there were more states of weapon degradation but which happends more often and one or two first states wouldn't change stats, just add "used" to the name. Such sword/armor would still have same value for being used by its owner but its market value would be lower. Same stats but used stuff would have less states till get destroyed, so people looking for new ones would buy from manufactures.

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Hopefully a quick post because it's the same old discussion again.

 

I've been a top manufacturer longer than most of you posters have played the game.

 

I've spent time in the top 20 of every skill except a/d (top 30.)

 

We as individuals all need to take stock and accountability for our actions and behaviors. You might like for manufacturing to be easier but what effect will that have on the game and everybody else? You might complain about crafters having it easy, but did you know that crafters complained about manufacturers having it easy for ages?

 

This is not a real life economy. But in a way if we view the game economy in the right frame we might learn something. Do you work in an attempt to gain experience and levels? Do you work simply to get gold coins? If

I'm not entirely convinced that there is a 'problem' per se. I've yet to see somebody clearly state what the 'problem' is and show me that is the case.

 

Manufacturing is hard to level. - Yep, would you prefer it be easy and for everybody to be able to make all the items they need? Doesn't sound like a good way to make money.

 

Manufacturing is not profitable. - There's a reason we have skill levels and not gold coin levels. Gold is simply a means to an end. Do you play to get rich or do you play to have fun and level your character?

 

It's work, just like any other skill. It's up to you what you want to invest in it. It's also up to you whether or not you want to take your own actions into account when looking at the bigger picture (for yourself and for the larger community.)

 

If that was too obtuse, sorry. I don't really have the time or inclination to get all explainey n whatnot.

Anyway, best of luck to my fellow manuers.

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Manufacturing is not profitable. - There's a reason we have skill levels and not gold coin levels. Gold is simply a means to an end.

I totally agree with this. And in fact, I think it's true of most of the skills - it costs lots of gc to get to high levels. The real money-making skills, those you can turn a profit at almost any skill level, are harvesting and alchemy. All the others take a huge investment to get to the point of having a profit potential (and even then probably not enough to recoup the investment).

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This is not a real life economy. But in a way if we view the game economy in the right frame we might learn something. Do you work in an attempt to gain experience and levels? Do you work simply to get gold coins?

 

this is true in RL too, at least in the theatre world, right now im just trying to get my foot in the door and i dont have the exp behind me to get the best paying jobs out there. so i have to work for practically free while im starting out here. and im one of the people going through this program thats actually getting payed, others arent getting payed to be there.

 

anyway, the point is you have to work to get exp and you have to get exp to get better paying jobs.

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Torr, this is a game, and people are different... Some people will make products even with loss just because they see some fun in it...

Any kind of global organizing is impossible, because we have many sub-societies on Draia...

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Manufacturing is not profitable. - There's a reason we have skill levels and not gold coin levels. Gold is simply a means to an end. Do you play to get rich or do you play to have fun and level your character?

1. I agree the money in the game is just a mean to the end (buying books, armors and so on).

2. Manufacturing, as well as other item-producing skills, are much harder to train than a/d. In fact, my a/d is 66/73, and I think I spent more time manufacturing then fighting (including the time needed to make all the ingredients needed). This makes it A/D the best skills in the game, and it's OK, as this is basically a fighting game.

3. This also means that if you need money, you better go fighting than do anything else. This makes A/D not only the easiest skills to train, but also the most profitable skills in the game. Oh, and add to this the fact you train both skills at the same time (you get both attack and defense exp when you fight).

4. As people are "pushed" into fighting, there are most drops in the game, and this caused Entropy to change the drop rates of items, the break rate of items (see the NMT cloak case), and even the chance of making EFEs.

 

Now, there ways to solve all this (like making classes and limiting different items to certain classes, as well as changing the drops from monsters), but I don't thing Entropy would like that...

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3. This also means that if you need money, you better go fighting than do anything else. This makes A/D not only the easiest skills to train, but also the most profitable skills in the game. Oh, and add to this the fact you train both skills at the same time (you get both attack and defense exp when you fight).

4. As people are "pushed" into fighting, there are most drops in the game, and this caused Entropy to change the drop rates of items, the break rate of items (see the NMT cloak case), and even the chance of making EFEs.

 

Now, there ways to solve all this (like making classes and limiting different items to certain classes, as well as changing the drops from monsters), but I don't thing Entropy would like that...

Sorry for stealing manufacturing thread but this guy here doesnt have a clue about a/d training, he comes to wrong conclusions+ he bitches about a/d skills.

Mr Smaul if u think that a/d is so easy go train it, dont support a/d with ur alch/potioning/harvest/manu but train a/d only, reach a/d lvl that allows u to train on yetis barehanded and after that we will talk again.

 

Training with too high p/c on ogres when u can provide urself good armors/he's/srs coz u made money on other skills than a/d is way different from what standard pure fighter do, where monsters have pr0 p/c.

 

Yetis have nice drops but look at ppl that train or trained on them, we made a lot of money, but we spend a lot 2, most of us took many/all possible negz only 2 not break that much, and we reseted loosing sometimes 400m+ oa exp.

Yeti easly does 50+dmg even if u wear best armors, so every dissconect can make ur rosto "vanish" ;)

 

Again, sorry 4 my post but i couldnt stand still when i saw these golden thoughts of Mr Smaul.

 

 

eMPi

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If this is agreed (seems it won't be). I wouldn't be against this. I only manu to make armor and stuff for guildies which I will do for less than cost. No cartel will stop me selling to guildies for cheap.

 

EG

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3. This also means that if you need money, you better go fighting than do anything else. This makes A/D not only the easiest skills to train, but also the most profitable skills in the game. Oh, and add to this the fact you train both skills at the same time (you get both attack and defense exp when you fight).

4. As people are "pushed" into fighting, there are most drops in the game, and this caused Entropy to change the drop rates of items, the break rate of items (see the NMT cloak case), and even the chance of making EFEs.

 

Now, there ways to solve all this (like making classes and limiting different items to certain classes, as well as changing the drops from monsters), but I don't thing Entropy would like that...

Sorry for stealing manufacturing thread but this guy here doesnt have a clue about a/d training, he comes to wrong conclusions+ he bitches about a/d skills.

Mr Smaul if u think that a/d is so easy go train it, dont support a/d with ur alch/potioning/harvest/manu but train a/d only, reach a/d lvl that allows u to train on yetis barehanded and after that we will talk again.

 

Training with too high p/c on ogres when u can provide urself good armors/he's/srs coz u made money on other skills than a/d is way different from what standard pure fighter do, where monsters have pr0 p/c.

 

Yetis have nice drops but look at ppl that train or trained on them, we made a lot of money, but we spend a lot 2, most of us took many/all possible negz only 2 not break that much, and we reseted loosing sometimes 400m+ oa exp.

Yeti easly does 50+dmg even if u wear best armors, so every dissconect can make ur rosto "vanish" ;)

 

Again, sorry 4 my post but i couldnt stand still when i saw these golden thoughts of Mr Smaul.

 

 

eMPi

Well, all that Empi said here is true. But i would like to add something more: the risk associated with the skills are different. When you go to yetis or achims or whatever, you risk your rostogol, your armor, your COL, etc. The other skills offer relatively low risk.

 

So higher risk, higher gain. Lower risk, lower gain. Normal economy. :wub:

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Sorry for stealing manufacturing thread but this guy here doesnt have a clue about a/d training, he comes to wrong conclusions+ he bitches about a/d skills.

Mr Smaul if u think that a/d is so easy go train it, dont support a/d with ur alch/potioning/harvest/manu but train a/d only, reach a/d lvl that allows u to train on yetis barehanded and after that we will talk again.

 

Training with too high p/c on ogres when u can provide urself good armors/he's/srs coz u made money on other skills than a/d is way different from what standard pure fighter do, where monsters have pr0 p/c.

 

Yetis have nice drops but look at ppl that train or trained on them, we made a lot of money, but we spend a lot 2, most of us took many/all possible negz only 2 not break that much, and we reseted loosing sometimes 400m+ oa exp.

Yeti easly does 50+dmg even if u wear best armors, so every dissconect can make ur rosto "vanish" :)

 

Again, sorry 4 my post but i couldnt stand still when i saw these golden thoughts of Mr Smaul.

 

 

eMPi

To masterpiter

1. Please write my nick name correctly.

 

2 .Don't quote just part of what I wrote - I said A/D are the best skills in the game, but that's OK, because this is a fighting game. I didn't "bitch" about that a/d system, I just wrote my point of view.

 

3. My a/d is 66/73, as written, and I do train those skills, but this is not my goal - I use the ppts I get to raise nexuses needed for manufacture and other productive skills. However, my goal is not to become a fighter (which I assume you are), and so my p/c is low, and I can only fight ogres with my stats, and only with armor. Fighters with the same a/d levels would probably be training on fluffies or even higher level monsters. I can't do that. I know I will probably never be able to fight anything stronger than fluffies, and even then I'll need good armor and a lot of luck. Fighters on the other hand can go on and fight stronger and stronger monsters, and in time - get better drops, which I will never be able to get on my own.

 

4. I meant a/d are better skills than the rest because if you spend the same amount of time, you'll gain a lot more levels fighting then working on making something.

 

5. I hardly support my fighting with my other skills, other than with HEs (alchemy). If you have a problem with that, I suggest you go train your other skills to support your fighting.

 

6. If you can fight yetis without any armor - good for you, but don't expect other players to be able to do the same. If you need high level armor and weapons to fight high level monsters, don't expect us to feel sorry for you - like Lorck said - higher risk, higher gain.

 

7. The entire point of this thread is to talk about the loss of money cause by training the productive skills. True, you need money too for armor and weapons to train fighting, but you need even more money to train the other skills (very few items can give you profit). In fact, I've bought my first CoL mainly by fighting trolls (they have good money drop) and not by making and selling stuff.

 

8. If you need to keep resetting your characters, it seems you're playing the wrong way - you need to choose your course, and then stick with it. You don't have to spend every ppt you get right away on p/c. If you have to reset because you made the wrong choices and you lose 400 million exp - it's your problem, not everyone else's. I personally didn't do a single reset, but maybe because I understand how this game works...

In fact, I really hope Entropy would one day decide to make drops based on OA level, which might finally teach players to play right from their first try.

 

9. Talking about rostogol stones - sure they are expensive, but they can protect you from losing your items when you die, and even if you don't have one, there is always a chance your DB would still be where you died, or you can even have someone back you up and get it for you. There is no such thing for manufacturers - if you get a critical failure, you will lose all the ingredients, and those could be very expensive (EFEs, hydro and wolfram bars and so on).

Edited by smalul

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Sorrz for typing ur nick uncorrectly, i was so angry when i saw ur post that i barelly could hit buttons in keyboard(i hope i didnt made 2 many typos:p)

I wont comment other sentences from ur post coz i dont wanna change this topic to flame war+ my arguments in post above were good enough.

Some ppl will belive me, some will learn from their own experience, im cool with that :)

 

<edit> typo(s)

 

 

eMPi

Edited by masterpiter

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With all respect Smalul, you seem to have really small idea about why people DO reset. You have shade of idea about high level a/d training and drops. You did NOT read Masterpiters post. He did NOT say he trains on Yeti armourless. Quite opposite, he stated he uses the best armour in game.

Saying that fighting gives best profits in game is just plain b.s.t or at least really huge simplification. According to my experiences the easiest and the cheapest cash in game is still alchemy. Used to be fighter, used to train on fluffies (before drop reduction) and still I did not make as much profits as with selling health essences.

The fact is that crafters, manuers, summoners and even fighters have to put a lot effort in their skills BEFORE (and IF) they get any reasonable profits. Can't say how it works for summoners with the Summoning Stones now (not even close to the reasonable levels for them), but for crafters/manuers getting profits from their skill is still difficult - even with the high-end stuff. I know some manuers that DO have profits (quite nice), but they did spend lots of time developping themselves. Now it seems to pay-off. According to my knowledge crafters still do not have anything that would give them steady incomes.

I do not support fighters. Quite opposite, I keep bitching at their richness \o/. Yet, I would never ever say that they have the easiest skill to train. Just because this would mean I don't know a fckng thing about a/d.

Regards,

Anshar

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As for crafting, there used to be only the high C2 tele rings. So you would need to invest in gems until very high level. Recently it became much better, moon medallions could be made to be sold at NPC, as well as plain polished gems. The former category offers slight potential for money gain, although I use it purely as an 'exit' for alchemy products. The polishing of gems is a slight loss, I'd compare it with leather helms because it is the efficient way to gain XP, although the ingredients are harder to obtain in bulk than leather.

 

Manu lacks the XP gain item for people with around 40 skill levels, so the leather helm is way to go all the way.

 

Summoning stones are OK but slow to level on compared to the crafting things, IMHO (with the dead people perk, polishing 1000 gems is done in no time, harvesting gypsum remains slow). I'd say bear and tiger stones have actually some demand for them.... and offer some sort of profit margin. Perhaps the supply is way higher than demand though.

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bah i thought i'd stay out.. but.. as an all rounder who's trying to get his noob skills up, i can definitely say a/d is not profitable at all..

 

with 55 a/d i find it a huge gc loss to train a/d, losing a lot of armor/HE/SRs/diss rings while training, and with nmt breakable i don't use that and not my CoL either. more costly. only training for more oa levels.

 

about other skills, i can say i'm able to profit from all skills at my current levels, except a/d :D

 

why? because i do my own harvest/mixing, and as i level i find i can buy some of the ings and still profit. you want levels? got to work hard for it

 

According to my experiences the easiest and the cheapest cash in game is still alchemy.

 

harvesting is better :hug:

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With all respect Smalul, you seem to have really small idea about why people DO reset.

I know why people reset - they need to adjust their p/c to their a/d so they could get the most out of fighting each creature. Having too much p/c and the battles end fast, giving you little exp, having too little p/c, you won't be able to hit, and you'll get hit a lot, and probably die. Also - it's used to get rid of the perks you took. The problem is that people think taking a lot of p/c would make them better fighters, and it's wrong - high p/c is only good for PKing and very high level monster fighting, but fighters keep putting their ppts into p/c, and that's why they have to keep resetting.

 

You did NOT read Masterpiters post. He did NOT say he trains on Yeti armourless. Quite opposite, he stated he uses the best armour in game.

I have read his post - he told me to go train my a/d until I'll be able to fight yetis with no armor, and I told him that if he could do that, good for him, but he shouldn't expect people to be able to do the same. Most non-fighters would probably never be able to fight anything better than fluffies.

 

Saying that fighting gives best profits in game is just plain b.s.t or at least really huge simplification. According to my experiences the easiest and the cheapest cash in game is still alchemy. Used to be fighter, used to train on fluffies (before drop reduction) and still I did not make as much profits as with selling health essences.

Let me tell you something - I got 4 MM cloaks, 3 BP cloaks, 1 mirror cloak, around 15 serpent stones, 2 titanium chainmails, a lot of books, a lot of swords (mostly iron and iron broad swords), and a lot of money just from monsters drops. Like I said, I paid for my first CoL (63Kgc) with just the money drop. And I'm only able to fight monsters up to ogres (I went from female goblins to female orcs, to male orcs, to trolls, to ogres), so don't tell me there isn't profit in fighting.

As for a/d being better than other skills - I already said I meant that in the same time you can gain more exp fighting than doing anything else. Look at my stats - my a/d is 66/73, which are my highest skills, while the other skills are lower (well, harvesting is 73, because I've trained it up to level 70, but you must agree you can get more exp fighting then harvesting), and I don't even fight that much. I wish my other skills were that high.

 

 

The fact is that crafters, manuers, summoners and even fighters have to put a lot effort in their skills BEFORE (and IF) they get any reasonable profits. Can't say how it works for summoners with the Summoning Stones now (not even close to the reasonable levels for them), but for crafters/manuers getting profits from their skill is still difficult - even with the high-end stuff. I know some manuers that DO have profits (quite nice), but they did spend lots of time developping themselves. Now it seems to pay-off. According to my knowledge crafters still do not have anything that would give them steady incomes.

True - all players have to invest in their character to make it better. The point is fighting gives profit much faster than the other skills, as almost everything dropped from creatures has some value. And there is profit in all productive skills, but you just have to work for it, that is - do everything yourself, because if you buy ingredients you can make yourself, you WILL lose money. With fighters you just buy armor and weapons and maybe HEs, go fight, and sometime you have you repair or even buy new armor and weapons. There are other differences, such as fighters can just find their spawn spot, while manufacturer have to run around getting ingredients, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

As for crafters - they probably have the best steady income in the game, but like all other skills - you have to work for it. In fact, I've raised my crafting skills way too high than I ever expected just to make money. The problem there is you have to work days in advance to make such a profit (do you have any idea how long it takes to harvest 4000 sapphires, 4000 blue quartz and 2000 emeralds and mule them to storage, then go make the WEs, then go buy the sand paper, then polish the gems? I do - days).

 

I do not support fighters. Quite opposite, I keep bitching at their richness \o/. Yet, I would never ever say that they have the easiest skill to train. Just because this would mean I don't know a fckng thing about a/d.

like I said - if you spend the same amount of time working on raising you manufacturing skill (getting all the ingredients, doing the alchemy, and then doing the manufacturing itself) and on fighting, I'm sure you'll gain more exp fighting.

Oh, and you said fighters are rich - how did they get so rich if there is no profit in fighting? Tell me, I would like to know that, so I would do the same :D .

Edited by smalul

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yetis barehanded

 

barehanded != no armor :D

 

Somehow, I think a strike will not work. Maybe it will lower the production of high level items, but it only takes one high lvl manufacturer willing to mix for others to ruin it.

 

On a side note, if buying ingredients is too expensive/leads to no profit, why do people not make more of their own ingredients? Yes, it takes time, but if you are that concerned about profit, then is it not worth it? I admit I'm not a manuer, but I am a pretty decent alcher, and I make everything from scratch. A slow profit? Maybe. Maybe not. But a profit, nonetheless, at least in terms of gc.

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I reset 4 times, not because of to high P/C but because I had nexus in skills that gave too low profit or was too boring - potion and crafting.

 

I have levels over 60 in all skills but summoning and can make all items in this skills.

 

I always made lots of money, now that I started to train A/D I spend all my money on this skill.

 

I bought a COL the day it came in the game - from money earned from manuing.

 

I did not make leather helms befor I had manu level over 50 and a big emu so I could make at Trik.

 

Best way to make money on manu is, harvest your sulfur, flowers and coal, make iron and steel bars, find out what Trik buy for best price and sell to him what you make. Only cost that way is food.

I made thousands of iron shields, best at that time.

And don't think you can level fast in any skill.

 

Oh , and I bought 8 nexus from money made from harvest, alc and manu. :D

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To masterpiter

1. Please write my nick name correctly.

 

2 .Don't quote just part of what I wrote - I said A/D are the best skills in the game, but that's OK, because this is a fighting game. I didn't "bitch" about that a/d system, I just wrote my point of view.

 

3. My a/d is 66/73, as written, and I do train those skills, but this is not my goal - I use the ppts I get to raise nexuses needed for manufacture and other productive skills. However, my goal is not to become a fighter (which I assume you are), and so my p/c is low, and I can only fight ogres with my stats, and only with armor. Fighters with the same a/d levels would probably be training on fluffies or even higher level monsters. I can't do that. I know I will probably never be able to fight anything stronger than fluffies, and even then I'll need good armor and a lot of luck. Fighters on the other hand can go on and fight stronger and stronger monsters, and in time - get better drops, which I will never be able to get on my own.

 

4. I meant a/d are better skills than the rest because if you spend the same amount of time, you'll gain a lot more levels fighting then working on making something.

 

5. I hardly support my fighting with my other skills, other than with HEs (alchemy). If you have a problem with that, I suggest you go train your other skills to support your fighting.

 

6. If you can fight yetis without any armor - good for you, but don't expect other players to be able to do the same. If you need high level armor and weapons to fight high level monsters, don't expect us to feel sorry for you - like Lorck said - higher risk, higher gain.

 

7. The entire point of this thread is to talk about the loss of money cause by training the productive skills. True, you need money too for armor and weapons to train fighting, but you need even more money to train the other skills (very few items can give you profit). In fact, I've bought my first CoL mainly by fighting trolls (they have good money drop) and not by making and selling stuff.

 

8. If you need to keep resetting your characters, it seems you're playing the wrong way - you need to choose your course, and then stick with it. You don't have to spend every ppt you get right away on p/c. If you have to reset because you made the wrong choices and you lose 400 million exp - it's your problem, not everyone else's. I personally didn't do a single reset, but maybe because I understand how this game works...

In fact, I really hope Entropy would one day decide to make drops based on OA level, which might finally teach players to play right from their first try.

 

9. Talking about rostogol stones - sure they are expensive, but they can protect you from losing your items when you die, and even if you don't have one, there is always a chance your DB would still be where you died, or you can even have someone back you up and get it for you. There is no such thing for manufacturers - if you get a critical failure, you will lose all the ingredients, and those could be very expensive (EFEs, hydro and wolfram bars and so on).

Man get a clue as to what the heck you are talking about before you come to forums and whine/bitch/argue with the people who obviously know more than you.

Edited by fyrrflyy

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