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Ideas for the "charm" attribute replacement

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I have an idea or two, (1)mabye charm could be used to increase ur chance to dodge an arrow, and or decrease dammage taken from long range weapons.......(2)On a completley different note, most attributes with the exception of carry capicity and some extra experience really only benifit fighters/summoners..............mabye charm could be used to increase youre food bar, or every 2pp could decrease food used by 1 , also mabye it coukld be used to speed up alchemy and harvesting speeds, this would definatly incourage alch/manu/harvestors to spend pp...just a few ideas from the think tank i try to think so more

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On a completley different note, most attributes with the exception of carry capicity and some extra experience really only benifit fighters/summoners..............mabye charm could be used to increase youre food bar, or every 2pp could decrease food used by 1 , also mabye it coukld be used to speed up alchemy and harvesting speeds, this would definatly incourage alch/manu/harvestors to spend pp...just a few ideas from the think tank i try to think so more

 

i quite like this idea..but it should be renamed. It makes a lot of sense. Better instinct/vitality could have the effect of increasing your natural aptitude/capability and thus how economic you are. In fact you could probably call it 'Aptitude'

 

Merging a few peoples suggestions together, it would be logical if it effected HP/MP Restoration Rates, Food Usage for Manufacturing/Potioning etc.(due to your skilled hands not having to work so hard), and of course Decreased manufacture time. (" ").

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First choice: Rename the attribute to Arcana.

 

Arcana: This is a measure of how in tune you are with the mystic aether which permeates all living things. The higher your arcana, the better you are at bending the aether to you whim. A starting character with 4 arcana follows the required spell level and mana requirements listed in the encyclopedia. Adding a pp to arcana gives:

 

1. An incremental reduction in the chance of a spell failing. A pure magic oriented player, with enough pps, could no-fail cast a spell at a lower level than it currently is.

 

2. An incremental reduction in the mana required to cast a spell. This would be hard to balance, but would encourage players to spend pps in the attribute. Who wouldn't like to use only 20 mana instead of 25 for a restore :devlish:

 

3. Increase the effectiveness of level based spells. Harm, Poison, Mana Drain, Life Drain and with projectile based spells maybe down the road, the area/distance of effect.

 

4. An incremental reduction in the mana required to summon a creature. I would not tie it in with the manufacturing of summoning stones

 

Doing this will make developing your character much harder, but would result in a much more varied population of players. With this, just because someone doesn't have high p/c doesn't mean they couldn't be deadly. Imagine someone in the top 10 magic skill resetting and putting points in arcana and less in p/c. They might not look like they can kill you with a sword, but they can reave your spirit into the underworld.

 

Second choice: what trollson posted.

 

And yes, I've usually have always played a mage character in single player computer rpg's and the good old pencil/graph/dice rpg's like D&D throughout the years.

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How is "aim" sufficiently different from "perception" to justify it as a seperate attribute?

 

Having a good sight/senses doesn't mean you are able to shoot very well. Your hand might shake or something.

 

NPC Prices? Any bonus or penalty can be limited to avoid economic effects. For example, give the NPC its own charm; if you are over this limit then you get a fixed reduction. Conversely, if you are well below this limit then they won't even talk to you.

This is an interesting idea, but the anti social perk would totally negate the whole attribute then.

 

Monster ignore adjustment? Excellent! This breaks the requirement to take either Monster Magnetism or develop a high defense to avoid fights -- you charm your way out of the situation.

The MM perk works well, and many players do not actually want a monster to stop attacking them.

 

PK engagement resistance? Somebody tries to attack you, but cannot because you are "too beautiful". Sucker! As always, the game needs a mechanism to prevent success-through-repetition in these situations.

This is a very interesting idea. Would it be permanent, or just decrease the CHANCE to engage?

 

Disengagement bonus? This a bonus to disengage by using the "Home" button or walking away, not the use of disengagement rings. Similar reasoning to the previous two.

Might not be worth it enough... Diss rings are relatively cheap.

 

 

Getting information from NPCs: If NPCs become sources of rumour and information, then the charm attribute is the way to get this information out of them.

Yes, but this is dependent on quests, and for a while we won't have time to add new quests.

 

Limited resources from NPCs: If an NPC has a limited supply of some item(s), then a charm check may be needed to persuade them to sell it to you, regardless of price.

Again, the anti social skill.

 

Power of persuasion: Controlling higher level summoned creatures (though this could also be will).

Will is more suitable for this.

 

Postions of Leadership in Society: Charm could be an important attribute for leadership. When players build their own towns, take over civil responsibilities, then their charm affects the moral of the unseen peasantry. There is a huge scope for charm in this field of play, which have been discussed in depth elsewhere.

No, I want the player based cities to be 100% democratic, a leader will be ellected by the people, based on their IRL abilities (how smart and reliable they are, how much they play, etc.)

 

Required attribute levels: More generally, and at the risk of digressing, attributes could play the same role as nexus for certain tasks[1], giving required minima to attempt a task. This is preferable to required skill levels, since players have to actively choose to develop attributes and nexus, whereas skills creep up over time. So, certain NPC interactions require a minimum charm level, dependant on the NPC?

Yes, I was thinking of that as well. But on the other hand, the NPC interactions are not for everyone. Only some people do the quests, many have antisocial..

 

Relationship to Karma: Charm is not karma. Karma should be something you accrue by your actions (whether good or bad), and is a gap in the game for this. But charm could then offset/augment the effects of karma. Particularly for bad karma -- you can be a charming villan and get away with it (imp: "that deed 20 bad karma, offset to 15 due to your high charm").

Very, very difficult to design and implement. What is good karma? What is bad karma?

 

Losing charm seems to threaten closing the door on developing EL into a fully rounded MMORPG; more than just a fighting-mixing game. It would be a sad day.
You can't lose what you don't have, yes? Right now, charm is not used at all.

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Yes, that would not be enough motivation AT ALL for people.
I don't think you understand. You (nor bkc56) have gone thru "high level" fighting. When you are training on cyclops, fluffy, any chimeran, you pretty much need to flee, unless you have really high might for whatever reason. And if you are training pvp you have to flee no matter what :) So if you could flee faster every time you wanted to flee, you would increase xp/hour.

Plus, with cooldown weapons, and people escaping gangs, people often need to flee from pk, 8pp or so there could save a rosto :icon13:

It would be an attribute that doesn't help much on pk maps, but is great for training (already fits profile of vitality)

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Yes, that would not be enough motivation AT ALL for people.
I don't think you understand. You (nor bkc56) have gone thru "high level" fighting. When you are training on cyclops, fluffy, any chimeran, you pretty much need to flee, unless you have really high might for whatever reason. And if you are training pvp you have to flee no matter what :) So if you could flee faster every time you wanted to flee, you would increase xp/hour.

Plus, with cooldown weapons, and people escaping gangs, people often need to flee from pk, 8pp or so there could save a rosto :icon13:

It would be an attribute that doesn't help much on pk maps, but is great for training (already fits profile of vitality)

I actually understand perfectly. But my original question still stands: as an attribute that required many pick-points to create an effect, would you be willing to spend 10-20 PPs in this attribute to double or triple the chances for a flee to work?

 

While a nexus gives it's effect for as little as 1 PP, attributes simply don't work that way.

 

I submit few people (if any at all) would be willing to spend more than perhaps a couple PPs for such a benefit.

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Afaik, and with all due respect, the compplication with flee is a BUG, the fact that we all have trouble with flee at times wasent done on purpose, like i said it is a bug, so why should we have to have a cross-attribute in which to waste pp in to correct a bug?

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Yes, that would not be enough motivation AT ALL for people.
I don't think you understand. You (nor bkc56) have gone thru "high level" fighting. When you are training on cyclops, fluffy, any chimeran, you pretty much need to flee, unless you have really high might for whatever reason. And if you are training pvp you have to flee no matter what :) So if you could flee faster every time you wanted to flee, you would increase xp/hour.

Plus, with cooldown weapons, and people escaping gangs, people often need to flee from pk, 8pp or so there could save a rosto :icon13:

It would be an attribute that doesn't help much on pk maps, but is great for training (already fits profile of vitality)

I actually understand perfectly. But my original question still stands: as an attribute that required many pick-points to create an effect, would you be willing to spend 10-20 PPs in this attribute to double or triple the chances for a flee to work?

 

While a nexus gives it's effect for as little as 1 PP, attributes simply don't work that way.

 

I submit few people (if any at all) would be willing to spend more than perhaps a couple PPs for such a benefit.

Actually, you don't :omg:

Will/Vitality is a debate between most fighters, will makes you better at pk and vitality makes for cheaper/better training. So once you are putting those 20 or so pps in already, if it gives like 30% chance more to flee it would certaintly bring vitality to equal level of will

 

 

@mufo

?? when you hit homekey/click there is % chance to flee, hence the "you failed to flee"...

so if you succeed in flee 30% or so more based on 16-20 of vital/instinct, you think thats helpful ?

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Yes, that would not be enough motivation AT ALL for people.
I don't think you understand. You (nor bkc56) have gone thru "high level" fighting. When you are training on cyclops, fluffy, any chimeran, you pretty much need to flee, unless you have really high might for whatever reason. And if you are training pvp you have to flee no matter what :) So if you could flee faster every time you wanted to flee, you would increase xp/hour.

Plus, with cooldown weapons, and people escaping gangs, people often need to flee from pk, 8pp or so there could save a rosto :icon13:

It would be an attribute that doesn't help much on pk maps, but is great for training (already fits profile of vitality)

I actually understand perfectly. But my original question still stands: as an attribute that required many pick-points to create an effect, would you be willing to spend 10-20 PPs in this attribute to double or triple the chances for a flee to work?

 

While a nexus gives it's effect for as little as 1 PP, attributes simply don't work that way.

 

I submit few people (if any at all) would be willing to spend more than perhaps a couple PPs for such a benefit.

Actually, you don't :omg:

Will/Vitality is a debate between most fighters, will makes you better at pk and vitality makes for cheaper/better training. So once you are putting those 20 or so pps in already, if it gives like 30% chance more to flee it would certaintly bring vitality to equal level of will

 

 

@mufo

?? when you hit homekey/click there is % chance to flee, hence the "you failed to flee"...

so if you succeed in flee 30% or so more based on 16-20 of vital/instinct, you think thats helpful ?

well dont debate it with me,just ask entropy youreself, that shits a bug son!

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I am still not convinced at all it is a bug. From playing the game myself, I've noticed that I can always flee, although sometimes I fail like 10 times in a row (bad luck).

You all do it wrong though, you flee using the home key, which is the wrong way to do it.

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I am still not convinced at all it is a bug. From playing the game myself, I've noticed that I can always flee, although sometimes I fail like 10 times in a row (bad luck).

You all do it wrong though, you flee using the home key, which is the wrong way to do it.

i FLEE using a combination of home key + ouse, if their is a better way to do it please edjucate!!

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trollson: How is "aim" sufficiently different from "perception" to justify it as a seperate attribute?

Having a good sight/senses doesn't mean you are able to shoot very well. Your hand might shake or something.

That sounds like dexterity then. Aim is too specific to be a fundamental attribute (cross or otherwise), its more a derived quality, from dexterity and perception?

 

trollson: NPC Prices? ...the NPC its own charm; if you are over this limit then you get a fixed reduction...

This is an interesting idea, but the anti social perk would totally negate the whole attribute hen.

Antisocial and charm certainly cross paths, but the attribute can have a wider range of effects than the perk. Perks are exceptional abilities, I don't think that they should constrain the normal game mechanics.

 

On further thoughts, it maybe more appropriate to have a "charm vs will" check for interactions. Avoid like vs like tests if possible.

 

trollson: PK engagement resistance? ...

This is a very interesting idea. Would it be permanent, or just decrease the CHANCE to engage?

I would see it as decreasing the change of the engagement being made; based on target's charm vs attacker's will. It could be treated as-if the pair had just disengaged combat.

 

trollson: Disengagement bonus? ...

Might not be worth it enough... Diss rings are relatively cheap.

Maybe, but it fits in with the previous use of charm.

 

trollson: Getting information from NPCs...

Yes, but this is dependent on quests, and for a while we won't have time to add new quests.

Actually, I wasn't thinking of this in terms of quests, but as a general extension to PC-NPC interaction.

 

trollson: Power of persuasion...

Will is more suitable for this.

Agreed.

 

trollson: Postions of Leadership in Society...

No, ...a leader will be ellected by the people, based on their IRL abilities...

While RL player abilities are important, this is moving away from the RPG concept of developing a character; the character may be more charming and intelligent than the player, which is where the attributes come in.

I had better augment this point: In addition to the non-RP aspect, there is a more serious flaw in using a one-character-one-vote democratic system in this game.

 

Democracy only works in a system where participants are accountable or have an investment, and this isn't the case with characters in EL.

 

In EL there is no investment in making a basic character; determined players could create multiple characters to stuff the ballot boxes, building up these characters to the minimum required to enable them to vote.

 

In a pay-to-play game, the investment is the cost-per-character, and a democratic system almost works; it is skewed by the RL rich.

 

The only 'concrete' investment in the game is through character development, represented as influence to the unwashed invisble peasantry. This basic concept can be used to implement different government systems, not just democracy.

trollson: Required attribute levels:...

Yes, I was thinking of that as well. But on the other hand, the NPC interactions are not for everyone. Only some people do the quests, many have antisocial..

Again, can't design a game around the exceptional aspects. Provide the facilities in the core mechanics -- perks etc override are the exceptions, even if everyone takes the perk.

 

trollson: Relationship to Karma:...

Very, very difficult to design and implement. What is good karma? What is bad karma?

Not that difficult, let players decide and assign good/bad karma in a controlled way.

Sorry thats a bit of a throw away line.

 

I can see several ways to implement karma systems, and it can tie into many other aspects of the game, if more character/NPC/creature interactions come into play.

 

For example, one approach is to let characters assign karma to others, which avoids the game engine having to know what are good and bad deeds. Each character would acquire a "budget" to spend on karma, sending kisses or curses to others. This could be tied to OA experience in some way (fraction of?).

 

Add two skill-like attributes; Good Karma and Bad Karma. The kisses & curses act as experience points to these scores, and the difference in level gives a net score (offset by charm), which modifiers social interactions in game.

 

Later, the game system can give karma values to specic deeds -- bad karma for attacking a Unicorn, etc.

You can't lose what you don't have, yes? Right now, charm is not used at all.
You can lose the potential that it offers.

 

hasty reply due to meeting...

Edited by trollson

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NPC Prices? Any bonus or penalty can be limited to avoid economic effects. For example, give the NPC its own charm; if you are over this limit then you get a fixed reduction. Conversely, if you are well below this limit then they won't even talk to you.

This is an interesting idea, but the anti social perk would totally negate the whole attribute then.

 

Limited resources from NPCs: If an NPC has a limited supply of some item(s), then a charm check may be needed to persuade them to sell it to you, regardless of price.

Again, the anti social skill.

 

 

Required attribute levels: More generally, and at the risk of digressing, attributes could play the same role as nexus for certain tasks[1], giving required minima to attempt a task. This is preferable to required skill levels, since players have to actively choose to develop attributes and nexus, whereas skills creep up over time. So, certain NPC interactions require a minimum charm level, dependant on the NPC?

Yes, I was thinking of that as well. But on the other hand, the NPC interactions are not for everyone. Only some people do the quests, many have antisocial..

 

I don't think the antisocial neg perk should have any bearing on this. Choices...

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I REALLY like the idea of more role play elements being developed into the game. There will always be players that want to just persue leveling their characters, however that does not mean that a game need cater to the demographic.

 

It is understandable to want to please the current players and follow the way the boat wants to go but Entropy you (and the rest of the dev team of course) are the wind in the sails. Not everything that players want should nessicarily be given to them.(I think you wrote something similar in your blog.)

 

I was caught up in the excitement of something new. With your words suggesting that certain roleplaying aspects were being discarded I took it as given that they would be culled. With more benifits to be gained and seemingly interested developers wanting to go in that direction I provided my suggestion.

 

Then there was Trollson to light the way. Before I get to poetic . . .

 

Currently after a certain level there is no reason not to take the antisocial attribute. It is basically free pick points. A player will have either the coin, the carry capacity, skills or all 3 to easily get around it. When players mention they have antisocial other players are quite happy to assist them with their purchase(because there are a lot of nice players). When dealing with players and bots I am unaware of any way for me to tell that a player is antisocial so I have no reason to try and make better of the situation for myself. I will likely take antisocial after another six months or so. Unless. . .

 

Unless there is reason not too. And having an increased roleplaying side will greatly decide that. Some of the side effects suggested such as squirming away from a monsters grasp due to using ones charming personality (here look at this shiny thing, and runs the other way) might be part of a side benifit but not the main benifit.

 

Price fluctuations with the NPCs again maybe. Will players find a way to maximize this benifit yes, if they can. But who is going to sacrafice so many pp to gain such an advantage, more likely the manufactures and crafters. The max of this benifit could simply be an NPC will not buy anything for more than what another npc would sell it for and vise versa. Maybe the prices will need to be adjusted with the NPCs. . .

 

. . . Maybe this beta game will need to have another restart to balance things(I know I will not be liked by many for suggesting this). Even though the orginal vision feels difficult to implement that does not mean it should be avoided.

 

Conversly there are other ways to introduce roll playing elements. Christopher mentions to player "I am always looking out for a great (insert random gem here)", when ever the player goes to Christopher there is an option to give gem. Christopher takes it says its nice and thankyou. If the player was not paying attention and gives the wrong gem 3 or 4 times then Christopher will continue to just accept gems or maybe he mentions that he found the one he was looking for. But if the player payed attention and provided the right gem in the alotted tries it would open a new quest. For some one else it could be a flower, or a mushroom for a soup or a type of fur. But with the randomness each player has to pay attention not just mindlessly wander and click things. However for all I know this could be more difficult to implement than projectiles.

 

These are not easy descissions to make and this is why we worship your wisdom. You will not be able to make everyone happy but you will always be able to be proud that you and your team have made a great game the best you could. As always I, and I am sure others, will eagerly anticipate the changes that come about what ever they are.

 

I like trollsons post. It has me even more excited about what could be in store for this game in the future.

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You all do it wrong though, you flee using the home key, which is the wrong way to do it.

 

 

using the mouse to click to flee ensures that the bug mufossa is talking about doesnt happen. using the home key is easy b/c you can hold it but sometimes it doesnt work and doesnt even give you the 'failed to flee' msg other times it does work and you fail a few times b4 fleeing.

 

ive also noticed a way to flee that attepmts to flee every turn as well as taking your attack each turn. i havent done it very much but it seems to work nicely, if this is a bug that you want to look into Ent then PM me and ill explain, ill not explain it here for that purpose (the bug being that you can attempt to flee and take your attack each turn)

 

P.S. this way of fleeing is a very recent discovery to me so it isnt like ive been exploiting a bug ive only done it 3 or 4 times and not on purpose either, but i do know how to duplicate it.

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what about an attribute or somethincg called "intellect" it slightly reduces every books read time some. gives extra advantages on things while fighting. stuff liek that

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Charm should effect NPC\'s like the higher charm is you can buy/sell stuff for less/more gold. Why would it have something with fighting? Why not to make some attribute for mixers? That would make some split in game, players will have to think before starting some skill and choose their way to be fighter or mixer.

 

Cheers!

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In addition, or possibly contrast, to Trollsons idea of charm affecting pk or fighting....

 

why not have a chance based on charm levels of mesmerising your opponent/monster for X number of rounds? Similar to a paralysis effect that currently exists from certain creatures/weapon effects, but this allows for a different way of creating your strategy for training/pking as you can now include other types of weapons/armour to coincide with your Charm skill levels.

 

Later development can then use the same skill if a Psionic type attack/defence attribute is to be included....or not, as required. Simply expand it in the direction you need to take it.

 

*example:- in addition to charming your opponent in melee combat as above, the player may also have the ability to improve their ranged combat abilities by simply charming the target to step INTO oncoming fire...not improving your aim as such, just decreasing the chance to miss by having the target become a bit easier to hit.

 

Edited in example.

Edited by Pyewacket

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---how about charm is called something like intelligence and it determines not how many mana you have, but how many mana is used in spells

 

---leadership; allows you to rally summons and derally other player's summons, also gives you the ability o add mana to your summons etc etc

 

---creativity; makes it easier for you to manufacture things(5% faster each 2-4 pp's)

 

---makes you an adept explorer and therefore gives you the ability to look for other living things on a map ?

 

---gives you the ability to take control of other animals/monsters

 

just a few ideas, they're not really good :-P

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I fully agree with trollson on this subject and the potential of charm in later development would be a huge loss for EL. That being said I also think the statements about the attributes that charm comes from giving it a survival aspect as well as charm. The idea that you could reduce food cost for making things would break the game how if you take the survival aspect of the attributes that charm comes from, to give it the survival side effect, and lose the idea that it increases toughness in some way you have another prospect. Want people to spend pick points? How about the survival aspect of the charm cross attribute is that it increases the total amount of food for your food bar. You can heal longer and harvest longer with out having to eat.

 

This would be a very popular use of pick points that would be better for manuers/crafters than it would be for fighters and it would only add 1 point to the food bar for every two pick points. 20 pick points for 10 extra food. Using bones or toadstools for food you could make 65 of single food cost items. Having this benefit is much more like an attribute than a perk as it mimics might and rationality increases. You have have it increase the food bar by 2 instead of one if you think 1 is not enough. It does not seem like a big deal until you start thinking about making thousands or tens of thousands of things like thread, polished gems, and essences. Plenty of other things as well it will make a difference on.

 

It has a limited effect on mass production due to the limit of how high a food bar increase you get. The newer items in the game are using enough resources to start taking out mass production already as well as the time people spend to make the ever increasing amount of high level items. A larger food bars is something a lot of players want and if you connect this benefit along with the things trollson mentioned then you have a definte draw for pick points.

 

The charm against will to avoid PK and any of the economic ideas combined with an ever increasing food bar would make charm a very attractive attribute and really have people start making choices with character building especially with perspective coming in soon too. :blink:

 

TirunCollimdus

EDIT:

PS It wouldn't hurt to have it reduce the chance of a no drop from monsters though I really think perception is more suitable to any adjustment on how much stuff you find or avoiding the no drops from monsters. Not getting anything after killing a fluffy just sucks. :confused:

Edited by TirunCollimdus

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You all do it wrong though, you flee using the home key, which is the wrong way to do it.

using the mouse to click to flee ensures that the bug mufossa is talking about doesnt happen. using the home key is easy b/c you can hold it but sometimes it doesnt work and doesnt even give you the 'failed to flee' msg other times it does work and you fail a few times b4 fleeing.

Sometimes i get stuck on pressing home button (tho i usually flee using mouse, cuz its easier to flee, and its fast to reattack the monster/person that way) without getting 'You failed to flee" message, then i cast a spell and home works again. Offtopic. :P

==

On topic: i liked atlantis' idea of luck being used instead of charm, making that attribute having a broad (not deep, but broad) application on criticals in several skills, like extra hits, extra special stuff, and so on.

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