Crafting discriminated?

[dejan]

I wanted to post this critic long ago, but now I have few spare minutes to explain the problem, and I am doing it...

 

Well, as some of You might have noticed CRAFTING is the only skill in The Game which CANNOT be developed WITHOUT nexuses. Those two nice new ways to develop basic crafting skills (cotton --> thread, and now 1FE+2q. --> vial) both require artificial nexus.

 

So, my question is - why crafting is discriminated? - Either make it POSIBLE to develop crafting without the need for artificial nexus by, let's say, allowing us to make thread from cotton, or make all other skills (except a/d) to require some nexus...

 

Kind regards

 

Dejan

[Entropy]

Umm, all the skills are discriminated, because they are all different. Harvesting is different from fighting, alchemy is different from summoning, etc. I never wanted symmetry.

[Ermabwed]

Would make sense too to actually have manufacturing require artificial nexus from the lowest item as well since you are creating something "artificial", but considering you are only making crude stitches in (mostly) fur you can get away without nexus

Same goes for potions at low levels you can say you are only mashing a flower and some wine and put it into a vial, thus no nexus is needed.

But with crafting items (and I exclude thread here because in my humble opinion it belongs to manufacturing but you are lucky to get crafting experience for making it) things are different. Crafting is art and beauty; crafting items are displayed in the jewelery store window which the local louts stare at and deem them to be magic; whereas manufacturers even making most fancy armor will never get rid of the smoke and dirt of their forge

 

PS: Yeah, we crafters are an arrogant bunch that likes to exclude YOU

[Aislinn]

Crafting was always supposed to be an advanced skill.

[Lotheneil]

Crafting discriminated? ROTFL! It was made waaaay easier than it was before thread was implemented. Now some of the higher level crafters consider it even being too easy... Thread is easy (and free) experience, and NPCs buying polished gems and medalions made it good money-wise. I think it's very good it reqires nexuses, or everybody would craft...

What could we want more?

 

PS. & at Ermabwed's PS.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Lotheneil

[Duck2]

Why would you want to level crafting with no nexus? There is no point in having crafting level 60 if all you can make is thread and vials . So even if you could level it without nexus you would have to get some before you could do anything, same with manufacturing or potioning, you can level those without nexus, but leather gloves and minor mana potions aren’t very useful, you always need nexus to make the good stuff, I like crafting the way it is.

 

The Duck II

[LilBear]

True, you have to make a lot of thread before you can make your first ring successfully, but then, even the basic crafting tutorial in the ency states that crafting is something that starts kind of difficult (besides thread). And, opposed to harvesters, alchemists, and potioners, crafters have a god.

[Cyprom]

The alchemy/harvest/potion gods are on their way...

But to stick to the current gods, Zarin only has 6 quests while other gods have 7. Which means the craft god can only give up to 16% extra exp, instead of 20%. Not that I'm complaining though, I love Zarin

[dejan]

@all

You all missed the point - I was talking about low-level skills. OK, I understand that it is hard to understand me from Your perspective of ever-developing freaks. - My goal is not to be crafter No1, not even crafter No200. Even more, if I want to level crafting by doing basic stuff only, that is MY CHOICE. My point is that there is NO CHOICE except to get the Artificial nexus.

For all other skills there ARE SOME CHOICES, but no for crafting. Plain simple inequality.

 

@Ermabwed

Ermabwed, do you want to go "on the Highway to Hell" again? ;D

[shallara]

What you are obviously missing is simple. You DO have a choice. Your choice is whether or not to level crafting. Your choice is NOT in what the requirements are. End of story.

From the time crafting was first implemented, it was meant as a specialty skill. Meant to be a difficult skill that NOT everyone could do.

Any fool can yank flowers out of the ground or put crude stitches in some fur.

If you try to spin thread from cotton and don't know what you're doing, well, you'd probly end up with a whole bunch of strung out fluff.

(Before the flames start, have you ever REALLY tried to spin thread? I HAVE, and it is NOT easy)

[Hex]

This game is already a class-free MMO. That means, given enough time, you can level any skill. This beats every other game on that premise alone IMO. Sure it costs 1 pickpoint to do even basic crafting. Other skills don't have this requirement. Big deal. Shall says it nicely. Some skills are easier, some are meant to be harder. Be thankful there is now a way to sell crafted goods to a NPC.

[dejan]

Short answer to Shallara: I do not want to waste PP on Artificial Nexus, as I said above. So, I haven't tried to spin thread. This is also related to the problem I am trying to explain...

As I said - I have two "choices":

1) to get an Artificial Nexus.

2) not to get it - than i CANNOT develop crafting.

 

@Hex:

What if I do not want to develop crafting in order to sell goods to a NPC? You'll agree that "sell to NPC" is not a very positive thing. As I said in previous post - I do not want to go into top-lists. I do not even want to do high-level crafting items. I want one simple item which does not require ANY nexus, which will give me crafting points. There are similar for every other skill, except crafting.

 

I am out of this thread anyway, after reading Entropy's answer. He stated there that skills are inequal, and there is no planing of changing it, so we have to live with it.

 

No need for further discussion I guess.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Dejan

[Aislinn]

@all

You all missed the point - I was talking about low-level skills. OK, I understand that it is hard to understand me from Your perspective of ever-developing freaks. - My goal is not to be crafter No1, not even crafter No200. Even more, if I want to level crafting by doing basic stuff only, that is MY CHOICE. My point is that there is NO CHOICE except to get the Artificial nexus.

For all other skills there ARE SOME CHOICES, but no for crafting. Plain simple inequality.

I think you missed the point. It's intentional. This skill was not intended to be an entry level skill.

 

Edit (you posted while I was): If you consider spending the artificial pp *wasting* it, then you really aren't all that into crafting. Just like I consider it *wasting* pp's to have to put everything into p/c if I want to be a competitive fighter. I DO consider that wasting it, so I am not a competitive fighter. Choices.

[Ghrae]

You want crafting xp without putting in a nexus? Uh... ok, try the quests. One quest gives you 1k xp in the skill of your choice. Another quest I believe gives you 2k xp in crafting. Boom! 3k xp in crafting. No nexus needed.

 

If on the other hand you actually wanted to EXPERIENCE the game... that is, really get into what crafting is, dirty your hands and *gasp* spend a pick point in a nexus, I think you'll find crafting to be quite a challenge.

 

Of course... if you just want to harvest flowers and kill things, well, I understand that not everyone is up to actually working hard and being an all rounder. Some people can only adequately handle 1-2 skills. There's nothing wrong with that.

[The_Piper]

And, at least, you still can buy nexus for hydro bars. So no need to "waste" a pickpoint

 

Piper

[LadyReni]

I may be wrong but I think Dejan wanted to point out that a player cannot 'try' that skill without spending pp. We can all try summoning/manu/alch/potions and see if those are the skills for us. If we like them and decide to continue leveling we take nexuses. It doesn't happen with crafting. You have to spent precious PP to try crafting... quite annoying when you realize this skill isn't for you.

[Ghrae]

I may be wrong but I think Dejan wanted to point out that a player cannot 'try' that skill without spending pp. We can all try summoning/manu/alch/potions and see if those are the skills for us. If we like them and decide to continue leveling we take nexuses. It doesn't happen with crafting. You have to spent precious PP to try crafting... quite annoying when you realize this skill isn't for you.

 

Magic is the same way. You have to buy sigils which, for new players is not a cheap or easy way to start a new skill.

 

And if a single pick point is really an issue for a new player, #reset is an option. I could understand the point if it required a lot of pick points, but it doesn't if he just wants to try out the skill.

 

And if anything, the game has made it MUCH MUCH easier to get started in Crafting than it used to be. I actually liked the fact that Crafting was so hard to start. It sort of separated the real players from those just looking for an easy fix. But since the introduction of cotton/thread, I think 1 pick point is a minor request.

 

And what does he really want to "test out"? Hitting Mix is the same as if he had tried Manu or Potion or Alch. If he wants to try a mixing skill, try those. What really separates the skill is not thread without a nexus... but the rings and crowns, which would require a lot more nexus points, researched books and work on his part.

[Cycloonx]

And what does he really want to "test out"? Hitting Mix is the same as if he had tried Manu or Potion or Alch. If he wants to try a mixing skill, try those. What really separates the skill is not thread without a nexus... but the rings and crowns, which would require a lot more nexus points, researched books and work on his part.

 

Well I agree, but what's wrong with someone having level 20 crafting from thread that would not require a nexus? They still won't be able to make rings/meds/crowns without spending pp and there would still be some seperate group. This topic just smells like the old a/d topics when there was added new stuff that made leveling on low levels easier. The so called 'Pr0s' are scared to lose their rank imo. (I know you might not like to hear it, but don't go attack on me for it if you would intend to do it)

[Vanyel]

I've made my 21 levels in crafting on threads. Yet, only what I can do in crafting is gold ring (I just really really needed one ). Does the level 21 make me a crafter? Not really. I lack knowledge, nexus to make a real crafting stuff. It's same with all other 'mixing' skills. You need lots of work to be able to do really nice items.

[Ghrae]

Well I agree, but what's wrong with someone having level 20 crafting from thread that would not require a nexus? They still won't be able to make rings/meds/crowns without spending pp and there would still be some seperate group. This topic just smells like the old a/d topics when there was added new stuff that made leveling on low levels easier. The so called 'Pr0s' are scared to lose their rank imo. (I know you might not like to hear it, but don't go attack on me for it if you would intend to do it)

 

Please tell me this is your idea of a joke. What would I be worried about?

Ooh! Someone can make a polished gem! Oh wait, no market for that.

But maybe they can make C1 rings! Oh, nvm, no market there either.

C2 rings? What few I sell in a year couldn't get me a single craft level.

Crowns? Ok, I actually do make some money on crowns. Not enough to be rich. Too many people can make them as well.

 

No, Cycloonx... I know you won't want to admit this, but in this case you're dead wrong. No one in crafting is worried about someone knew joining the ranks.

 

If anything, it would be nice to have some skills or subsets of skills that required additional challanges. How many week old newbies can afford at least iron plate? Remember when only a few elitists had that? I'm talking about serious challanges in the game that those who have put the time and effort into it can say "I took that challange!" and not "Well, I was bored and thought 'what the hell' so got to level 20 with some thread"

[conavar]

I think most points people have made are valid in one way or another.

But my personal opinion Crafting isnt a skill that is ment to be TRIED by low level players

 

Im new to crafting ( level 25) but to me it was the nxt logical step in progression to what i was doing, which was Alching ( level 62 ), I was making all theses essences and bars and the nxt step is to either 1) sell them and be a money maker. 2) or use them to develop other skills ie: manu and Craft .

 

I could quite happily Alch all day and make loads of money but that isnt a challenge or furthering my character. So I choose to even them out. sell what i need then use the others for manu or craft .

 

Crafting as far as i can make out was intended to be a next step in progression not the First step

[bkc56]

Someone can make a polished gem! Oh wait, no market for that.

But maybe they can make C1 rings! Oh, nvm, no market there either.

C2 rings? What few I sell in a year couldn't get me a single craft level.

Crowns? Ok, I actually do make some money on crowns. Not enough to be rich.

I have to agree with this. Crafting is a 100% net-loss skill. All the above is true (except I don't make anything on crown) plus there's all the expensive books that had to be purchased.

 

For me, crafting was a hobby born out of being a generalist. The hobby turned into a primary skill. Now it's a service I do for others (mostly in-guild, but outside too). But the best I can possibly hope for is to break even on current stuff I mix. I'll never recover the cost of the books nor ever make up even a small percentage of the funds I put into training in it.

 

All that said, I still like it. I just don't have any illusions about it being profitable.

[Cycloonx]

Ghrae, I don't see the point were I said something about crafting being a profitable skills or not. I know if you want to sell stuff you need to do it with a loss, but what has this to do with thread making nexus free? (I don't really care it is 1 arti, because I have 4 already, but I don't get it why people are against it)

[smalul]

Someone can make a polished gem! Oh wait, no market for that.

But maybe they can make C1 rings! Oh, nvm, no market there either.

C2 rings? What few I sell in a year couldn't get me a single craft level.

Crowns? Ok, I actually do make some money on crowns. Not enough to be rich.

I have to agree with this. Crafting is a 100% net-loss skill. All the above is true (except I don't make anything on crown) plus there's all the expensive books that had to be purchased.

 

For me, crafting was a hobby born out of being a generalist. The hobby turned into a primary skill. Now it's a service I do for others (mostly in-guild, but outside too). But the best I can possibly hope for is to break even on current stuff I mix. I'll never recover the cost of the books nor ever make up even a small percentage of the funds I put into training in it.

 

All that said, I still like it. I just don't have any illusions about it being profitable.

Did you even read the update from Jan 29 2007? Entropy fixed the crafting skill with that update. True, crafting requires points in 2 nexues (artificial and magic) for most items, and you need to work hard to level it, but now it's worth it (if you work really really hard on it). Crafting is no longer a "a 100% net-loss skill". Actually, you can make a profit on most of the items in the manufacturing skills, but only if you work hard for it, that is - make everything yourself. Making everything myself is not ideal for me, but for now it's the only way to make a profit in the game, and now this is true for crafting as well. You just need to trust Entropy knows what he is doing.

 

Magic is the same way. You have to buy sigils which, for new players is not a cheap or easy way to start a new skill.

As for this - The magic skill in this game is not like the other manufacturing skills. If anything, magic is the cheapest skill in the game - no need for nexuses (not even magic nexus), and the sigils are much cheaper than books (you have 22 or 26 sigils, some at 400gc, the other at 700gc, worst case - 26 X 700 = 18200gc max for all sigils, real value much lower). The problem with magic is that it's hard to train, and there is no direct profit from it (yet killing someone/something in battle or not dying could be considered a profit). Magic is a skill to support the fighting directly, while the other skills (like crafting) are there to support the fighting indirectly.

Edited February 13, 2007 by smalul

[LadyReni]

just one note: it doesn't matter if a skill is profitable or not... is summoning profitable at low levels?