More for true mage

[morabelon]

Hi Mora Here!!

 

Love the Game and I know it has been asked or talked about before. Maybe a little bit more for someone who wants a true mage as a character. I like what we can do now, but as in the general suggestions forum i was reading, maybe some new offensive and defensive spells, and more on the line of weapons armor and shields for someone who wants a bit more as a battlemage with out overpowering this sort of character. What do ya'll think?

 

Mora out!!

[Terrorgrim]

Ok, not sure whether it's been covered before. But the simplest way to boost the mage character in EL is to produce mage style clothing for the players

• Robes
  
• More staffs
  

That's probably the simplest next step to developing mage characters in the game. Obviously then some more offensive magic but that's for another day

[MagpieLee]

Ok, not sure whether it's been covered before. But the simplest way to boost the mage character in EL is to produce mage style clothing for the players

• Robes
  
• More staffs
  

That's probably the simplest next step to developing mage characters in the game. Obviously then some more offensive magic but that's for another day

I heard that there will be robes added ingame soon (with hoodies).

And yes more staves would be great

[redsoxlovr10]

Maybe we should have special quests that unlock hidden more powerful offensive magicks? 0,o'

[Duck2]

In general I personnaly do not like the idea of "A true mage", in this game magic is a complementary skill designed to support fighters, at the moment "True Mages" do not exist, look at the top 5 mages, #1 Toomass

#2 Muffosa #3 Asgnny #4 Magpielee #5 LuciferX, of these only MagpieLee is a "Mage" character, the others rely on brute force a/d, with a powerful magic backup (look at the rest of the top 10 and you will see it holds true). So these "True Mage" items will not be used by the top mages, Toomas isn't likely to use a robe instead of ti plate, neither is Muffosa, or LuciferX, of course, magpielee is the notable exception. Other Games have mages, but not EL, there is nothing wrong with having them in this kind of game, but EL is the kind of game that doesn't have them. Just my two cents worth (from a guy with 22 magic lvl )

 

P.S. I wouldn't mind if they where added, but I can't see them being used unless we get a lot more offensive spells, and currently Magic Immunity makes all offensive mage spells useless.

 

The Duck II

[duran]

in this game magic is a complementary skill designed to support fighters

 

im not sure its that way by design, all i know is that entropy didnt want the all powerful wizards to rule the game...

 

i would like to see two things for magic.

 

1. some way to make money while training said skill.

 

2. a change in the inner workings of the skill so that it becomes "recommended level" based, similar to the other skills. right now its the only skill that have the old style "required level" system...

 

but its o so much simpler to trow in new items and stuff, so it seems that EL is walking into the same trap as the rest of the mmorpgs. new toys for the equipment based skills/classes, not so for the rest...

[Happy_G]

in this game magic is a complementary skill designed to support fighters

 

2. a change in the inner workings of the skill so that it becomes "recommended level" based, similar to the other skills. right now its the only skill that have the old style "required level" system...

 

 

it has a required lvl b/c you dont lose the ing when you cast and fail, i dont want to see it change otherwise it would cost even more to lvl the skill. the curent magic system (partaining to the lvls) is perfect how it is in my opinion.

[The_Knight]

I have suggested something like this before, and would love to see some robes and staff's in the game.

Maybe require a magic nexus to cast with a staff?

[evilgeorge]

Duck2 makes a good point about the people who are top mages... Im sure these people have gained all if not 90% of their levels (past the requirement) through restore. That is, other than Lee. Maybe modify the experience gained so that these 'fighter' spells gain much less exp than the 'pure' magic, such as teleporting, elemental shields etc. These spells which are typically cast much less but are used alot by non-fighters as well as fighters should be the real XP gainers.

 

I would love to see the mage class character be a bigger part of the game. Maybe have weapons/armor which gain att/def based on the users magic level partially, atleast this way a high level mage can compare and not just be killed in a couple of hits.

 

EG

[MagpieLee]

Most of the top fighters use Mana Drain on Yeti.

[AluminA]

I thought Magic Nexus was for being tru mage so that I spent first 5 pp on it on my first char when i started playing EL ...

[Llywar]

In general I personnaly do not like the idea of "A true mage", in this game magic is a complementary skill designed to support fighters,

 

Well, that is how things happen to have evolved, but there is no reason it can't change.

 

at the moment "True Mages" do not exist, look at the top 5 mages, #1 Toomass

#2 Muffosa #3 Asgnny #4 Magpielee #5 LuciferX, of these only MagpieLee is a "Mage" character, the others rely on brute force a/d, with a powerful magic backup (look at the rest of the top 10 and you will see it holds true). So these "True Mage" items will not be used by the top mages, Toomas isn't likely to use a robe instead of ti plate, neither is Muffosa, or LuciferX, of course, magpielee is the notable exception.

 

Well, those characters are fighters that happen to also use magic. Maybe have a set of spell-oriented nexuses to force people to sacrifice p/c if they want to access higher-level spells. Then you'll see more differentiation. Of course, for that to happen you need some spells that are worth casting.

 

Other Games have mages, but not EL, there is nothing wrong with having them in this kind of game, but EL is the kind of game that doesn't have them. Just my two cents worth (from a guy with 22 magic lvl )

 

Well, I having to find the obsession with PKing a bit odd, and this is coming from a guy with 24 attack level!

 

P.S. I wouldn't mind if they where added, but I can't see them being used unless we get a lot more offensive spells, and currently Magic Immunity makes all offensive mage spells useless.

 

 

Obviously if magic is going to take off we'd need to tweak that. Maybe offer a partial defense against spells, with some adjustments based on relative skill of attacker/defender. I mean, my 25 defense isn't going to do anything at all if I go into a PK area, so why should somebody with level 30 magic and about 20 gc worth of essences be immune to anything a level-70 mage could throw at them.

 

As far as all-powerful wizards rulling the game goes - if somebody with 125+ A/D can walk across KF laying waste to anything in their path, why shouldn't the same apply to somebody with 125+ magic? Sure, there needs to be balance so that neither dominates, but that isn't what we have right now.

[duran]

in this game magic is a complementary skill designed to support fighters

 

2. a change in the inner workings of the skill so that it becomes "recommended level" based, similar to the other skills. right now its the only skill that have the old style "required level" system...

 

 

it has a required lvl b/c you dont lose the ing when you cast and fail, i dont want to see it change otherwise it would cost even more to lvl the skill. the curent magic system (partaining to the lvls) is perfect how it is in my opinion.

 

have entropy, roja or similar stated this at some point?

 

remember that its only on a critical failure that you loose stuff, and it could be fully possible to have critical failures of spells to whole other things then make you loose stuff.

 

btw, sigil prices is that only prices that stayed put when they reset the economy way back. and that is felt. while i had no problem grabbing all the sigils before the reset, i have to go harvest crazy to gain even one of them, much less all of them...

 

and the reason magic is so expensive is that you cant make any kind of money at all while using said skill. maybe except healing someone for payment, but its much simpler for people to just grab a potion to do the same, and they will always have it handy...

[Llywar]

and the reason magic is so expensive is that you cant make any kind of money at all while using said skill. maybe except healing someone for payment, but its much simpler for people to just grab a potion to do the same, and they will always have it handy...

 

True enough - I've leveled magic on a few occassions to achieve some goal (casting some particular spell, etc). I essentially just made a boatload of MEs and buying a whole bunch of SRs and going to town while alching something at store during the cooldowns.

 

Some spells like teleportation could be used as profit makers - provided that teleporting was a MUCH faster way to get between some remotely-located resource (harvestable, spawn, etc) and a store. By teleporting one could make their trips much faster and make more gc/hour. However, I can't think of any resources that really qualify - the teleport spell is pretty expensive (figure about 50gc for essences, and if you do it frequently another 15gc for an SR pot), and there aren't really any teleport locations that much closer to a resource than a few boat trips from the nearest store would take you. Maybe if there were some resource that literally took 20 minutes of walking to get to from the nearest store, but only 1 minute using teleporting we'd see the spell get used more.

 

Bones-gold is another potential profit-maker, but not now that bones are selling for 1gc.

 

An artificer spell might work, or some other economy-linked spell.

 

I should do the math sometime on shield - the cost of casting it vs the cost of having to do a little more healing. If it enabled me to level on a higher monster for more a/d xp it might make it worth the cost. I just haven't bothered to time how long it lasts on average. It might also be nice if the protection was influenced by magic level - if a mage could raise their defense by +75 with a spell you'd see more people levelling magic.

[MagpieLee]

An artificer spell might work, or some other economy-linked spell.

 

I should do the math sometime on shield - the cost of casting it vs the cost of having to do a little more healing. If it enabled me to level on a higher monster for more a/d xp it might make it worth the cost. I just haven't bothered to time how long it lasts on average. It might also be nice if the protection was influenced by magic level - if a mage could raise their defense by +75 with a spell you'd see more people levelling magic.

Be careful with your math. I'm sure some purists will tell you that now that you can make all the ingreds yourself it will be "free". But this is an old debate

Bones to Gold really was a good profit maker. I used to buy thousands at 0.5gc then almost double my investment, but this ship has sailed. An Artificer Spell would be a very nice touch but as long as none of these spells require any magic nexus (which I think should be the case), then it enables the all-powerful fightersl no boundries. There was talk about changing the magic system several months ago but I don't think thats going to happen now!

[guysmith]

As far as all-powerful wizards rulling the game goes - if somebody with 125+ A/D can walk across KF laying waste to anything in their path, why shouldn't the same apply to somebody with 125+ magic? Sure, there needs to be balance so that neither dominates, but that isn't what we have right now.

 

 

Whats stopping the high level fighters from laying waste across kf with 125+ a/d and 125+ magic level? Need something to spend pp on to harness the affects of more powerful and perhaps new spells and the cost needs to be considerable so that not every fighter wishes to fight and cast spells at the same time. *my thoughts*

[conavar]

I dont think there will ever be a True mage unless ideas are implented that only a mage/magic char can do.

 

Ie:

 

monster that can only be harmed by spells.

 

ores/minerals that can only be harved with magic nexus ( and not inorganic )

 

Items etc that can only be made using the magic skill/nexus and not craft or manu ( example: A mage can create a magic robe/staff and being a mage why should he get his hand filthy crafting it when he can magic it into life)

[masterpiter]

Conavar is right.

Look at the present staff of the mage. U think Magpielee or Soldus r really strong when they r using it? Well, they r stronger than without it of coz, but ppl who really r strong using this item r for example: Nienora, Senia and me( in the future, i plan to buy it coz atm its real power can be compared with thermal serp , in some cases even stronger, not to mention that its only human 5 nexus + less than 100k gc :>).

 

Btw, for me its important not be a fighter/mage/summoner, but to achieve maximum power i can.

Atm maximum power on the batlefield would be: horde of summoned giants( money)+ very expensive enchanted items(money)+ big a/d/p/c( some money and a LOT of time )+ decent magic(money and some time).

Yes, in this order.

 

thx 4 listening

 

eMPi

[Llywar]

Masterpiter brings up an interesting point (not sure if he intended it). From the CEL website it doesn't look like staff of the mage requires any human nexus at all (possibly a mistake?). However, whether or not it does, I would think that mage-oriented items should not require human nexus to wield. Instead, some currently non-existent spell-casting nexus should be required. (There is the magic nexus, but that is crafting related so unless we want to combine the spellcasting and crafting paths we might not want to use the same nexus. Then again, that might be a solution to the money-making problem.)

 

The general idea is that if you want to diversify the types of characters we have then you need to make characters make conscious choices (using pp's) about where they want to go. Then of course we need to balance things otherwise nobody would want to go down one route or the other...

 

By the way - I think we do need to recognize that getting a game balanced is not an easy task, especially a community-oriented one like this one, where development is still in-progress. I think there are some good ideas in this thread that Entropy would do well to heed, but at the same time we shouldn't expect major changes overnight...

[Pyewacket]

Some interesting points and ideas on this thread, however theres some thoughts which spring instantly to mind as a direct result of some of the things mentioned here...

 

Monsters which can only be harmed by spells, well we have phantomwarriors presently, so it is not unfeasable that others may be in the pipeline for the future.

 

Using Magic nexus as a basis for mage related items/weapons/armours/spells...humm tricky one this...on one hand theres the arguement that EL is meant to be broad spectrumed and classless to a degree rather than syphoned off into one particular skill class for a career (Magpielee for example insists he is a true mage but is in fact a dual class char that also moonlights as a soccer supporting lager lout as his secondary skill, a role which he tries hard to make his primary skill) and on the other hand theres the arguement somewhere in there that if a Mage has Mage related bonuses to playing that only the mage benefits from then why should this not also apply to other skills, like a Crafter getting better cooldown on using ROP in a fight or having other rings/meds that only the crafter can use because of the mix of Artifical and Magic nexus?

 

Or items that only a Manuer can wear and use correctly? Or explosive potions usable only by careers potioners that have invested their PP into being able to use teh molotoffs safely..ish...

 

Then the whole thing inevitably HAS to split at this point from being considered cross class into being career based if you wish to achieve a certain standard whereby you are able to have those skill based benefits.

 

Speaking personally as an allrounder that is a midranged crafter as primary, I have invested pp into every skill almost up to the maximum required by those various skills in order to make/wear/mix anything ingame and merely have to keep working those skills up to the point where I CAN make good the PP investment. Whislt I will never be among the best at pk this way I nevertheless have many advantages that those who choose a single career path do not, and as time goes on and my various skills increase in level I will see more and more advantages come to fruitition.

 

I know there are a hell of a lot of other all rounders out there that use a similar route, and I hope that if some step is made towards single class development as suggested in this thread then it is made with careful deliberation as to the effects to allrounders as we may at some point be considered by others as an imbalance when our skills inevitably get high enough.

[conavar]

Some interesting points and ideas on this thread, however theres some thoughts which spring instantly to mind as a direct result of some of the things mentioned here...

 

 

Using Magic nexus as a basis for mage related items/weapons/armours/spells...humm tricky one this...on one hand theres the arguement that EL is meant to be broad spectrumed and classless to a degree rather than syphoned off into one particular skill class for a career benefits.

 

 

That is a good point, and i think everyone understands that EL isnt and doesnt want to be class orientated.I totally understand Ents vision of a classless game and not forcing player to choose a career from the outset.But people do choose a path of there most enjoyment wether that be Fighter,summoning or in my case Alch .

I dont think anyone is asking the game be totally re-vamped and made into a game based on classes but i myself personnaly would like a player who enjoys making potions etc to be given benefits if thats the "class" they want to be.

It would be nice if the skills/options were there to make yourself into a class by the choices you make.

 

ie: player start off like now classless and can continue to be an all rounder if thats what they prefer, but if players want to be primary a mage or manufacture then the skills etc are they to also make this possible.

 

A classless game has got a class and that is classless everyone is forced to be the same.Having a few skills class based so players can become a class unforced if they so wish would i think diversify the game and make it a lot better .

 

comments/flame it all good plz

Edited February 11, 2007 by conavar

[trollson]

A classless game has got a class and that is classless everyone is forced to be the same.

A very good point conavar Denying people the ability to specialise is tantamount to a single-class system.

 

Looking at RPG systems in terms of whether they use classes or not can be misleading. The distinction really is in how and when a player can make decisions in the development of their character:

• In a "pure" class based system, the decisions are predominantly made during character creation, and the progression of the character is pretty much scripted by the chosen class thereafter.
  
• In a pure non-class system, the decision points would come continually throughout the characters evolution and development.
  

There are examples of RPG systems which show the class-vs-classless distinction to be a poor descriminator. Classic D&D was the architypal class-based system (though not pure); but we had (have) systems like original Traveller -- classless yet a more extreme example of all decisions being made at character creation -- and RoleMaster -- class-based, but continual decisions after that point.

 

We want players to have to make meaningful decisions about where they take there character next, and this requires choices -- and these choices, in a long game, need to include "exclusive-or", rather than "now or later?".

 

In terms of the game as it stands, the only hard decisions players need to make is how to spend their pick points. Everything else comes as a matter of course while playing the game -- skill levels creep up, knowlege is bought.

Aside:

This is the principle reason why, IMHO, we should stick to difficulty and nexus, instead of required skill levels; the latter dictates from the outset how a character will progress, without decisions from the player, and so fits into a "class-based" model rather than the open, flexible development scheme I think people here want.

Think in terms of tasks not skills

 

So far we have not been very imaginative in the combination of skills, nexus, and difficulty (recommended levels). There is a tendancy to associate a skill principly with a particular nexus, and assume that more difficult tasks require higher nexus. This limits characters to seven paths of progression, one for each skill.

 

A greater decoupling of nexus and skill opens up many more paths, and more variety, some 49 paths; 7 skills times 7 nexus (including no nexus).

 

If we treat nexus as another type of attribute (it shares the same form), then we can use attributes as well as nexus as prerequisits on tasks (90+ paths).

 

So we can have low difficulty tasks which require a very high nexus, and visa versa. For example:

• A level-1 spell requiring magic-10 nexus, representing crude channelling of some primeval power.
  
• Nexus-free tasks across all difficulties, allowing a character to persue a skill without requiring them to invest in a nexus.
  

[Terrorgrim]

Personally, I think the best route to follow for being a True Mage would be one not too dissimilar from the God quests combined with some elements of the knowledge quest.

 

With a handful of NPC's placed around the maps (possibly magic schools), players could begin by bringing some kind of token donation to the first mage, in return for being taught a skill, moving along to the second mage and so on. With some requireing donations/sacrifices and other taking the route of the knowledge quest, providing information, maybe books to some skills?

 

Combine that with a new set of clothing (even this could perhaps be earned on the quest) you have yourself a mage career.

the point others have made is also right though, there needs to be some way to profit from this career path....

Edited February 15, 2007 by Terrorgrim

[Terrorgrim]

So, now Entropy want to find a new use for the CHARM cross attribute? Possibly renaming it in the process? I thought this would be the ideal time to get the True Mage debate going again, as this now gives more opportunity to get things moving.

 

Perhaps the attribute could help in learning new spells? Some offensive, and some more 'elemental'?

 

Also, I posted a reply, suggesting a mage quest (a way of taking the mage career and benefitting from specific learning/training within magic schools. extra exp for magic focused skills on completion of quests) well how about to start the quest in the first place, this attribute needs to be higher than, say five or six? It shows willingness and a want to learn.

 

Either way, this could bring some fresh Ideas forward. I'd be interested to hear everybodies thoughts and ideas....

 

(ALSO! - Roja, I've seen the new clothing line. I like it a lot! But please please please, how about desiging some clothing for mage's. Possibly hooded robes [just not goofy hats like the ones in another game I won't mention here *cough*runescape*cough*])

Edited February 27, 2007 by Terrorgrim

[Cilestiel]

How about if you had the people who have a certan robe on ignore the bypass magic? and agressive spells become more effective and do more dammage, poison drains lifer faster ect