World Politics (Was: Beavers!!!)

[Kelven]

I would agree that the US needs some more industry regulation, but it is not nearly as unregulated as it is in France. History has shown that regulation works well for some industries but not others (dereg of the utilities and telephone industries, for ex.) Also, public healthcare is about the only socialistic aspect of Britian or Canada and there are debates about how well that is working atm. I think most American and western European and Asian governments are considered capitalistic (after looking at their gov. websites:US, Canada, Britian, France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Ireland, various former Soviet Republics, Russia (attempting) S. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Venezuala, Brazil, Pakistan, India(or so it says),S. Africa, Mexico, etc. ) with some having a very few socialist aspects; like I said, there are many varieties of capitalism.

 

Capitalism is not a perfect system or the only system, but I don't know a purely socialistic system in the world that is working nearly as well as capitalism is/has. Indeed, I think both pure capitalism and pure socialism would be harmful. However, I think if the value criteria being used here is economic prosperity and social mobility then capitalism is better than socialism. I think that socialism would be a perfect system if we were living in a perfect world, but reality and history has shown us that is not the case.

 

Ent, I am not trying to be rude or overly opinionated here. I am quiet interested in hearing what you have to say on this and what experiences you have and why you think the way you do.

[ShadowKnight]

Yes, so people take bribes. That is human nature and not capitalism. It is just as likely in socialism. Back in medieval times Kings favored nobles over peasants.

 

Also ent, i find it ironic that you of all people criticize the people in charge. Every time you change something you get mad because there's always someone who hates what you did. You are like the president of this game. Also you place very few restrictions on the economy in this game, making it very capitalistic. Not only that, this game seems to be very money based.

 

Is it just me, or are there are a few parallels?

[Entropy]

Your paralels are wrong.

1. This is not a democracy, it's a dictature. I was not elected, so I don't own you anything.

2. There are restrictions, such as the most espensive weapons can be bought from the store, thus dissalowing players to put whatever price they want.

3. This is not the real world, so the benefits of socialism can't apply. You can't get healthcare into a MMORPG, and the penalty for death is minimal.

I do have all the right in the world to criticize leaders that were APPOINTED by the population to SERVE them, if they fail to do that.

[Keknehv]

Criticize all you like, it still doesn't change THE TRUTH.

 

[ShadowKnight]

1. True

2. I agree. However, the prices set by shops are so easily undercut that they offer no competition as opposed to other players.

3. Sure you can. Just put in a code for diseases, and there's instant healthcare. You made the game, so you choose what aspects of real life are implemented.

4. Yes you do. And I have the right to criticize even dictators, however unwise it may be. I criticize my mom and my teachers all the time. And while it may not be your duty to serve people, if everyone leaves then this whole project was one big waste of time.

[Kelven]

Ok, first off, what is this TRUTH with a capital T? I believe that there are many truths but we can't know any TRUTH until its all done and over....

I don't know if capitalism is the right (true) way or not, just that so far it has worked better than anything else.

 

Second, how el operates may in fact resemble capitalism but it does not invalidate Ent's arguments.

 

Third, Ent, where are your arguments? :shock:

 

It has been my experience (up to today at least) that many people's dislike for capitalism comes from a misunderstanding of it and its history, not just in the United States but around the world.

[Entropy]

3. Putting a dissease code would waste my time, and would not make the game more fun.

4. Of course you have the right to criticize, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to be listened to. Unlike a real country, this is a game, so leaving it, if you don't like the leadership should have little or no implications to your life.

You also didn't pay anything, so you can't expect me/us to bend to your will.

[ShadowKnight]

3. That's just for examples sake. I was just saying that since you made the game, you have the power to add health care, insurance, taxes, whatever. You can make it as close to real life as you can code.

4. I am aware of that.

I'm just wondering why it is that you are so critical of the US government. Yes, I'm an American. Yes, I hate Bush. In fact, I pretty much hate the government as a whole. However, that doesn't mean i have any suggestion that would come close to making it perfect. I just happened to notice that you realize that you can't please everyone, yet you criticize the US government. You talk about corrupt politicians, yet sometimes you tend to favor the rich and/or high level players.

Do I hate you because of your opinions? no, not a bad game considering the situation. I hate the government, but i realize i realistically could not do any better. That is all i am saying.

[Entropy]

Dude, I don't hate the US government because it favours the rich people. I hate it because they are cold blooded criminals.

[Kelven]

Ok, can you qualify that statement?

 

I don't know anything criminal or cold blooded about the US government (then again I don't read al-jazeera). I could point to Britian, France, Russia, Japan, China, Germany, Israel, Eygypt, etc. etc. etc. and call them all criminal because of things they have done in the past but does that really make it so?

[Entropy]

I wasn't talking about the past, I was talking about the present.

[ShadowKnight]

I think Kelven and I were hoping for some examples.

[Kelven]

Yup. I was looking for a specific criminal expamle please.

[Entropy]

I was assuming you guys read the news, but I see that this is not the case.

The civilian death count in Iraq, since the USA invasion is over 10K casualties. Not to count the wounded, those who lost their familly members, those who's orchads were destroyed by the USA soldiers as a collective punishment, etc.

Anyway, I am tired of wasting my time with you. If you don't read the news, is not my fault, and it's also not my duty to pull you out of your ignorance.

 

[edit] Link: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

I hope that all of you who support the current USA government go to hell (I mean, literally)

[ShadowKnight]

I know that soldiers are being picked off one by one, and I knew there were casualties, I just didn't know you were referring to it. I can't read your mind.

 

BTW...

<---does not support war in Iraq.

[Kelven]

Sorry if you felt we were wasting your time.

 

I do read the news and I don't think you can compare a military action with criminal behavoir. Besides, the treaty with Iraq that ended the first Persion Gulf war was repeatedly violated over the last 10 years so from a legal perspective Sadam himself invalidated the peace treaty and put us back at a state of war. Also, if you read the news you would have seen that we have been at such a state with Iraq for some time with British and US planes being shot at in no fly zones, etc.

 

Civilian casualties are unintentional and regretable, however my wife is muslim and lived in that area during her childhood and every Shia muslim (the majority in Iraq) that I've spoken to are glad that Sadam is no longer in power.

 

Last, I thought we were having a debate about capitalism; I don't see how this applies since it is referring to a nationalistic foreign policy.

[Entropy]

While I don't expect people to read my mind, I thiught it was resonable to expect them to know what I am talking about, especially since the attrocities commited by the US government in Iraq are a public thing, and everyone should be aware of them.

[Kelven]

I do know what you are talking about but I was trying to be specific to capitalism, not the policy of US nationalism.

 

Where the "autrocities" being commited in Iraq worse than the half million Saddam has killed in the last 15 years? One mass grave outside of Bagdad contained 80,000 Shia's.

[Entropy]

I do read the news and I don't think you can compare a military action with criminal behavoir.  

Really? Why not? Is the military above the law? Above god?

Besides, the treaty with Iraq that ended the first Persion Gulf war was repeatedly violated over the last 10 years so from a legal perspective Sadam himself invalidated the peace treaty and put us back at a state of war.  

Links please.

Also, if you read the news you would have seen that we have been at such a state with Iraq for some time with British and US planes being shot at in no fly zones, etc.  

Any american or british aircraft being damaged?

Regardless, this clearly does not justify the massive ammount of civil casualties.

Civilian casualties are unintentional and regretable, however my wife is muslim and lived in that area during her childhood and every Shia muslim (the majority in Iraq) that I've spoken to are glad that Sadam is no longer in power.  

Some were unintentional, some not. read many news about american soldiers clearly stating that they actually enjoy killing, and they don't really care if they kill civilaians or not. But anyway, this is still a crime, it's called warcrime.

The fact that some people are glad Saddam is no longer in power is totally irrelevant. USA has no legal authority to interfere in a sovereign country.

Last, I thought we were having a debate about capitalism; I don't see how this applies since it is referring to a nationalistic foreign policy.

Then you know nothing about how the economy works.

This war was started for Iraq's oil, and also because some USA companies will benefit out of it.

[Entropy]

Where the "autrocities" being commited in Iraq worse than the half million Saddam has killed in the last 15 years?  One mass grave outside of Bagdad contained 80,000 Shia's.

Where did you get that numbers from? Link please.

[ShadowKnight]

Personally, I agree that Saddam wasn't the ideal leader, but I don't think that was the way to remove him. I would have preferred that Bush get U.N. approval, and just bring in a ton of U.S. and ally troops, and just scare him away with a show of force.

 

Wow, this went from beaver furs to Iraq...

 

And I heard an interesting theory...Someone had a theory that U.S. may have already captured Osama, and Bush will conveniently tell everyone just before the polls. Its just a thought, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Kelven]

I agree with the last part of your post about why the war was started. I think there were plenty of real reasons to go to war that had nothing to do with their expelling weapons inspectors and their potential weapons programs.

 

Iraq's sovernty has nothing to do with it, they invaded a sovergn nation in 1990 and in order to keep from losing their own they signed a treaty which they then violated repeatedly in more ways than one. Therefor the military action was legal under international law and can't be considered a "criminal action". Further, would you have considered troops in Rwanda or Somolia a criminal action? Or for that matter French legionarres in Haiti? Where is the bright line as to when one nation can violate anothers sovernty and when it can not?

 

I honestly don't remember if US planes where shot down or not, that is not the point (my wife remembers Britian losing 2 tornadoes but I don't have time to verify that). It was a violation of the treaty for them to have any military in that area at all (like if N. Korea decided to fly through the Demilitarized zone) much less to take hostile action in that area.

 

I will have to look but I will get you the links/references for the atrocities of Saddam; thought they were well known by most but perhaps only in the Muslim community. Iraq's use of chemical weapons during the Iran/Iraq war and the Persian Gulf war are well documented; I will get you references about what he did to his own people though, too.

 

I know how the economy works and I have no doubt that a socialist/communist country would invade another country if it was to their economic benift. Problem is there are many capitalist countries and many different capitalist systems. Capitalism is not dependent upon nationalism and vice versa. Regardless of the US reason for going to war I don't mind seeing Saddam's government go; he was one of the closest things we have to a modern Hitler, and I don't use that lightly.

 

My posts had nothing to do with support for the Bush administration. I was previosly talking about capitalism and it is an overisimplification to link the two. Capitalism and democracy will still be around after Bush is gone (i.e. next year).

 

It might take me a day to get the links, I'm off to work atm.

[Kelven]

Personaly I think Saddam should have been removed from power from 500 meters with a 50 caliber sniper rifle. Would have saved everyone a lot of trouble and only cost 50 cents for the bullet.

[Entropy]

The closest thing to a modern Hitler is the shrub, not Saddam.

I just saw a commercial of him (the shrub) on the TV, and I felt like throwing up. Reminds me of Ceausescu, only that he is more pwoerfull and blody.

As for Saddam, am I the only one who thinks he should be subject to an international tribunal?

[ShadowKnight]

Ya, i suppose it would only be fair...

then afterwards, chain him up in the middle of iraq, and let the people have their way with him. (with soldiers, and give them all a detonator to the small bomb placed on him, in case any Saddam supporter gets any ideas)

 

Ok, I'm being a little cruel, but i wouldn't want to see him painlessly euthanized after all he's done to people who simply voted "no" on a ballot in a supposedly democratic country.