Bot SPAM

[LabRat]

If we see Bots posting once per hour, the 'Bot Adverts aka Bot SPAM' will be reduced to an appropriate level. I will then unignore the bots and give them a fair chance.

Why get involved if to quote you you already have all the bots on #ignore? Your own words state that you do not see the bot posts anyway, so how will you know when (or if) the bots are posting correctly, at which point you will #unignore them all? This mentality is what I want to avoid, and why the matter should be resolved on a private thread between the game administrators and the bot owners.

 

Setting up a new private subforum for bot owners will not be difficult, after all the mods have their own section. I warned this thread would turn to flamebait "like so many others".

 

 

@ttlanhil: At login my bots generate a random number between 0 and (advert_frequency-1), and post on that offset. They furthermore post at a random second in the following minute, using sleep(rand()%60) to prevent spanning at NEW_MINUTE; Occasionally, even with these failsafes in place, the bots post simultaneously but as they are two separate programs and I am not going to write an IPC layer for the sake of a random event, all i can say is: if it happens it happens, and I will put it down to synchronicity - today's word of the day, and a useful one to know.

 

@anyone if you don't know tthe meaning of synchronicity I recommend you find out. As always, Google is your friend..

[Ikaris]

Heya LabRat,

 

I never said I had #ignored all of the bots. I said

Many have earned the #ignore command. I am tired of adding them to my ignore list.

 

I actually would prefer valuable information posts from the bots. If you read my previous post you will see I am refering to a difference between the Adverts and SPAM.

 

examples of Bot message types (names and locations hidden)

 

[useless_bot @ 3]: Greetings! Looking to buy or sell items? PM me with HELP to see my advanced trading features or LOC to see my location, INV to see my inventory, WANTED to see what I want to buy. Service with a smile.

 

[better_bot @ 3]: I am selling 1 EME for 4500gc each, Location Nordcarn [11,111]

 

[best_Bot @ 3]: Bot Selling: 500 life essences (5gc each), 249 magic essences (8gc each), 1 steel shield (400gc), 50 polished rubies (14.5gc each), 940 fire essences (3.6gc each), Location NC [11,111]

 

------------------

 

As to a flame fest... I do not see one here. We are politely discussing our points of view. (apart from your dig at me)

 

I would instantly pull the bots from my ignore list if this change happened. The only ones that would return would be those making useless posts.

<<edit... I have backed up my ignore list and cleared the original file, just to make you happy LabRat... call it a test of faith if you will>>

 

Also, players deserve to be heard on the subject. Bot owners need to be heard too. Only the Developers have a 'say' as to what happens.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Ikaris

[LabRat]

Only the developers have a say as to what happens?

 

Absolutely wrong.

 

Bot code has nothing to do with the developers of the game.

 

The administrators ot the game have the final word - devs and admins are two different entities, in some cases the two jobs are done by one person but not always.

 

And if push comes to shove and the rules are unacceptable for the bot owners, the bot owners do have the ultimate choice - they just stop paying for the bot and play normally once the bot is due for renewal, losing future revenue for the game itself, something that I believe neither the game owners and people that benefit financially nor the bot owners want.

 

Side note: I just thought of a feature that I would gladly trade posting once a day on the market channel for: a Uint32 packet with a unique ID for each item ingame, and a couple of new #defines: UNIQUEID_TO_ITEMNAME (for trades) and SEND_MY_UNIQUEIDS (almost equivalent to the current SEND_MY_INVENTORY)

 

It could return the same as image_id for unique items, and

Uint16 image_id Uint16 sub_id for items sharing common image_ids

 

Not too difficult to code server side, after all the server itself must have unique ids otherwise it would not be able to tell the difference between a COL and a damaged/broken COL - can't we just have access to that list if we send the correct packet to the server?

[Ikaris]

Apologies for the slip of terminology between developer and administrator... I'm sure everyone knew what i meant anyway.

 

Yes, Bot owners could drop their subscriptions and simply play as normal players. Some may choose to do that. Most would probably stay ... see what occurs in the fullness of time.

 

However, less frequent adverts (note I didn't call it a pseudo pork product this time) would actually attract more attention than the current blizzard of posts. Players would be more likely to stay on channel and actually read what is being offered.

 

Do realise though that players have an opt-out option on channel 3 (Market). We can stop coming there... or create a 'Free Market Channel' elsewhere. I'll even pay to have a Bot initiated into the game to let everyone on channel 3 know that the 'Free Market' is now located on channel 11111 (or wherever). Instructions included to teach new players to leave channel 3 and join channel 11111.

 

I Do Not Want To Do This.

The big drawback is that Moderators would not usually be around to prevent abuse and keep things calm and orderly. I would prefer after rules were changed to hourly postings for bot adverts (and fine ... 15 min per advert for players on ch 3... why not) we could all co-habitate channel 3 peacefully and profitably.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Ikaris

[DarElik]

Setting up a new private subforum for bot owners will not be difficult, after all the mods have their own section. I warned this thread would turn to flamebait "like so many others".

 

I had actually almost wrote this same thing in my previous post. I think we bot owners do need a section where we can talk amongst ourselves. In the long run, it would only help everything, discussing things like this thread, sharing ideas, working a little closer with each other.

 

Side note: I just thought of a feature that I would gladly trade posting once a day on the market channel for: a Uint32 packet with a unique ID for each item ingame, and a couple of new #defines: UNIQUEID_TO_ITEMNAME (for trades) and SEND_MY_UNIQUEIDS (almost equivalent to the current SEND_MY_INVENTORY)

 

That would be sweet. Another feature that I'd gladly trade (but maybe not for a "once a day" advert posting) would be stackable inventories for bots, he he he. Then I can really make use of that 10k+ EMU I paid for.

 

Unfortunately I think a rule change would be necessary to level the playing field. Unless all bots are restricted to one post an hour someone will just post every 15 minutes with the result that all Bots return back to 15 minutes per post. (Self-Policing is a nice theory ... but breaks down in reality)

 

Well, with respect to ttlanhil about him not wanting to post no farther apart than about 30 mins, I'm sure there are alot of us that will gladly space out to an hour each. I really think that if you're not spouting off and making demands like you started the thread with and talking about banning and going off like it's the end of the world and just asked us nicely, you'd have probably gotten much better responses.

 

It's not going to hurt anything to TRY and check around with bot owners to see if we can tone it down a bit. Mine's been going at 32.5 mins since I first posted on this thread and will go in and change it to somewhere between 55 and 65 mins apart after I finish this post as did LabRat. If we can get some of the other major consistent bot posters' owners to join us, let's just see how it goes. I don't think it would "break down in reality" as you mentioned as long as you're not trying to shove your point of view down everybody's throat.

 

By cutting back a little bit like this, it just may do the bots better having them spaced out a little more, I'm just suggesting we find out. If all is well after a week or so after we do that, then just go ahead and bump the actual Rule on up to no more than one post every 30 mins (or every 45 mins maybe) as a minimum with a strong suggestion to make it an hour or more but leave that to the owner's discretion. Even though the rule has been 15 mins, I started mine off at 17.5 just to distance his posts from the pack slightly anyway and probably won't notice any dropoff by posting only 1 per hour (may even notice more sales, I dunno).

 

A subforum for bot owners like LabRat mentioned earlier would definitely help expedite things like this in the future too. Then when you had a complaint or suggestion, you could bring it up to a bot owner you know and he/she could present it for discussion in the owner's forum.

 

What I REALLY don't want is for a bunch of rules slamming down making every bot the same, using all the same syntax, advertising exactly the same and everything else. Part of this game is a pseudo-RPG feel to some of our bots, at least trying to fit into the game atmosphere. This does include that bot that does the "service with a smile" and (even though I cringe each time) even the "MEEP" bot, lol. It gives the bots a little bit of a personality. I know ppl that will not trade with the "MEEP" bot at all just because of that. I know a couple that won't trade with mine because they just don't like his name. Nobody is going to be happy with everything in this game and I wouldn't expect them to (that includes me), but we can at least try to compromise a little to alleviate some of the discomfort for each other from time to time.

[Ikaris]

Admittedly my opening post for this thread was 'strongly' worded and came from utter frustration with the current state of affairs. At the time all I wanted was the 'babbling gits' booted off channel.

 

Fortunately, the quality of conversation and well spoken concerns on this thread have moved me to want to find a real solution to the current state of affairs that benefits everyone.

 

As i mentioned earlier ... i unignored <shudder> the bots that particularly annoyed me ... many still do. I would like to see all the bot owners (who haven't done it already) reduce to hourly posting so we can all see how it goes. Then perhaps get the admins to change the rules on timing if they agree.

 

I really think your adverts will be more effective if they are not constantly popping up and scrolling the last owners advert out of sight.

As to content of the advert... quality information will win out over annoyin Meep comments.

 

A bot owners only forum can be set up anytime you like ... set up an invisionfree weboard and go to town with it.

You can even have a non-owners thread open for player input.

 

Thank You,

 

Ikaris

Edited November 30, 2006 by Ikaris

[DarElik]

Admittedly my opening post for this thread was 'strongly' worded and came from utter frustration with the current state of affairs. At the time all I wanted was the 'babbling gits' booted off channel.

 

Fortunately, the quality of conversation and well spoken concerns on this thread have moved me to want to find a real solution to the current state of affairs that benefits everyone.

I see it moving in that direction also and am quite glad it is.

 

As i mentioned earlier ... i unignored <shudder> the bots that particularly annoyed me ... many still do. I would like to see all the bot owners (who haven't done it already) reduce to hourly posting so we can all see how it goes. Then perhaps get the admins to change the rules on timing if they agree.

Well, seeing as how I (and I believe LabRat) really kind of feel that 30 mins would be sufficient, but are now having our bots post once an hour or more anyway, I think that a "rule" of 30 mins and just a nice "recommendation" to put them over an hour will have more success and less bitching. Dunno.

 

I really think your adverts will be more effective if they are not constantly popping up and scrolling the last owners advert out of sight.

As to content of the advert... quality information will win out over annoyin Meep comments.

Possibly, though like I said, it is (even though sometimes annoying, just like people are different and likable or annoying) still good for the atmosphere that the bots have some sort of their own "personality" about them just to break up the monotony a bit here and there.

 

A bot owners only forum can be set up anytime you like ... set up an invisionfree weboard and go to town with it.

You can even have a non-owners thread open for player input.

Well, I think what LabRat and myself were working toward was hinting to have one here on EL's site. Most, if not all, of the bot owners are already registered members, Ent or Soldus or somebody has a list of us that has registered bots and it's much easier to verify actual bot owners (or someone picked by the bot owner as a proxy for the forum area) right here where it's already set up. And it would be easier for Ent and mods to take a looksee when they wanted and can read our discussions and ideas at their leisure.

 

You can pretty much bet that any one of us can whip out a forum setup at any minute, but it would be much more convenient for everybody to have a section here for it. (And as far as player suggestions, this section "Bots" is perfect as is - that's how we got to this point, eh? )

 

I'll try to get in touch with a couple other owners (I know I can bring in one for sure as soon as I catch him online) and see if we can get this experiment on the road.

[Aislinn]

Well, I think what LabRat and myself were working toward was hinting to have one here on EL's site. Most, if not all, of the bot owners are already registered members, Ent or Soldus or somebody has a list of us that has registered bots and it's much easier to verify actual bot owners (or someone picked by the bot owner as a proxy for the forum area) right here where it's already set up. And it would be easier for Ent and mods to take a looksee when they wanted and can read our discussions and ideas at their leisure.

If you would like, you can start a signup thread for bot owners. If there is enough interest (i.e. more than just a couple bot owners), I'll be happy to set up your own private forum section.

[Chance]

@ darelik - I have been considering this issue for a while myself and I'm very glad to see that I was right that bot owners take a sense of ownership over the responsibilities and powers that they have. Thank you for injecting what I consider to be a thoughtful, respectful, and proactive tone to the discussion.

 

@ all -

I have held off posting here for several reasons, not the least of which is that I am a mod and did not want to colour the talks even if it was through unofficial statements. As the talks have taken a dramatic turn towards the productive, I'll weigh in just a small bit - unofficially. And wholly without a well thought out structure.

 

I think that the main issue at hand is the 'appearance of spam.' There have been several possible solutions proposed. I feel that a solution in which every side has ownership is the best of all worlds.

 

I feel very strongly that bots should be able to post items for sale and prices. The reasons were stated clearly already by others.

 

I also feel, though less strongly, that bots should be allowed to have 'some' extraneous content in their ads. As a player, the last thing I want to do is be confronted by unfeeling and cold bots. I don't think there's much wrong with lively advertising. I do, however, admit that some of the ads are deafeningly repetitive and somewhat creepy.

I think that perhaps ads that are slightly more dynamic would alter that perception for me and for others.

 

I feel that bot posts based on a rand upon startup and a rand after the game minute are a positive step to ensure that multiple bots do not post on top of each other on any given game minute.

 

I feel that a bot owner subforum here could be a good thing. You're all already members here and there's little need to set up a dedicated new forum. Also, I feel that if you were to create a dedicated forum elsewhere that it may create negative perceptions in the player community. The net age is, after all, the age of the conspiracy theory.

 

Most of all, I feel very happy that the de facto representatives from the two sides have intelligently come together to make some headway in addressing the issue. Kudos.

 

I think that there are lessons to be learned from the discussion that extend beyond merely the issues at hand and I hope that we'll all take ownership of those lessons.

[Artem]

Hi,

 

at first: sorry, I haven't read the entire thread. I'm to sleepy now. I will do it tomorrow.

 

And now the main part:

 

What do you thing of a central assignment of time slots to the bots, based on the EL time.

 

The bots will be only allowed to post on #jc 3 in their assigned minute.

We could use a section of the protocol wiki to asign time slots and every bot owner could setup his timeslot by himself.

 

So we could make sure that two bots will not send in the same minute and would also keep track of the bots and the bot owners...

[LabRat]

I already suggested that somewhere round here in one of these 2 threads.

 

What happens when there are 61 tradebots? I am sure bot owner A will appreciate being accompanied by bot 61 every time he sends a message.

 

And what happens if the bot lags when it is time to post?

 

Let the bots decide for themselves when to post - a reseed in case of problems will fix issues if too many bots pick the same minute to post in.

[DarElik]

Hmmm.

 

Let's try one thing at a time and see if there's any effects first, eh?

 

The time-slot assignments are kinda overkill, IMO, besides the possibility LabRat mentioned about having more than 60 bots. (And, isn't there something about EL time that would skip a bot every six hours or something? Don't really remember how the EL time is progressed - after I finally figured out how to make him recognize the top of each hour correctly, I haven't messed with it)

 

It's not going to hurt for a couple or 6 bots to happen to post together now and then, the main goal here is to lower the number of posts per (fill in timeframe here).

 

For instance, my bot is using his own clockticks, not EL time and I've now set my bot to post every 61.5 minutes. Each hour it will move forward 1.5 mins. Sometimes it will be posting with a bot that is set to post on a certain minute mark here or another bot posting on a minute mark there. It also eventually covers all minute marks in the hours over time so it's not posting at the exact same minute of each hour and will take many posts before it's posting back right on the hour again (ex: first hour posts on the hour, second post is 1.5 mins after the hour, third is 3 mins after, and so on and so on).

 

Another thought while I'm on this subject: I also have mine set so that when he first logs in, he starts his timer and does not post on login (or a reload of his config). So, in the case of grueing or restarts (server or bot), he won't post sooner than his set timeframe. (I have noticed a couple bots doing this before. Can't remember now which ones, but they had posted an ad right before Ent restarted the server and then posted immediately after they logged back in after the server restart).

 

Anyway, I think we need to take some time and get ahold of the rest of the bot owners, get all to back off on their timing to between 30 mins and an hour (and I'd really like to see all on the hourly timing, but even with some at 30 mins and the rest at an hour or more will probably make a visible difference on chan 3), and run that for a week and see what kind of effects it has before we start allocating time slots, creating "bot channels" and making new, kneejerk reaction rules.

[Ikaris]

To the Bot Owners Guild,

 

The progress you ladies & gentlemen have made is a delightful song into my ears.

 

Credit where it is due... And you folks the Owners are doing a wonderful job working on a solution to the current issue.

 

I happen to be moving next week in RL ... and will be on vacation from December 10-17th ... Mexico ... beach ... happy wife ... etc...

 

I will monitor the situation until i go down south ... and see what has occured when I return. I am somehow giddy with certainty that you ladies and gentlemen in the 'Bot Owners Guild' are moving the situation in the right direction.

 

I wish to formally thank you all for adressing the community's (and my own) concerns and am more than pleased to give you all some time ... say a month or six weeks to work out the bugs.

 

Thank you soooooo much for working towards a solution that will benefit everyone.

 

Ikaris

 

<<fell from the sky with burning wax wings --- and soon to be well tanned(sunburnt)>>

Edited December 1, 2006 by Ikaris

[eelriver]

I'm glad I searched before starting another topic, my request was (or is) that there be a new chat command, "#ignore all_bots", that would do just that. Of course there might be some inconvenience, but it would be worth it to me.

[Terena]

I'm glad to see the progress made in this thread. To be honest I avoid market channel whereever possible due to bot AND player spam. So its nice to see some progress towards solving at least one problem.

 

I have one concern to raise though, and its about Irilion bots. I am aware that Irilion, and the way there is no longer secret. However, most new players are often given the warning that it is for more advanced players and it is a dangerous area. On one occassion, we had a new player asking questions in 24, who travelled all the way to Irilion to purchase something from a bot, yet didn't know what a monster magnetism cloak was. :/ (an essential for a low-level player on Irilion). Perhaps it might be sensible for these bots to have a warning, or perhaps post only on channel 24? (as many already do, though apparently in addition to 3). I'd be grateful if some Irilion bot owners would consider these concerns.

[Chance]

I have one concern to raise though, and its about Irilion bots. ...Perhaps it might be sensible for these bots to have a warning, or perhaps post only on channel 24? (as many already do, though apparently in addition to 3). I'd be grateful if some Irilion bot owners would consider these concerns.

It is a valid concern that newbies without good knowledge end up on irilion. Every couple weeks I hear about one related to bots. I think though that such a circumstance points more directly to our failure as a community to educate the budding populace. I've not followed the encyclopedia updates, but that's one place for such information. Also ch 1 et al where that warning is given out regularly by players.

 

Regarding irilion bots posting only in 24, we should keep in mind that 24 is not an official channel and that excluding the bots from ch 3 would limit their exposure and put them at a competitive disadvantage. I think though, that some sort of disclaimer in the returns for "loc" might help with that issue.

[LabRat]

I think though, that some sort of disclaimer in the returns for "loc" might help with that issue.

My bots Agneum and Titanta both carry warnings abut the monsters on the map they are on. I would rather lose a newb's sale now and that newb remember that my bot did all in its power to protect it.

[TheMadToker]

I agree with the disclaimer idea, but if this is made into an official rule the NPC merchants on Idaloran shouldn't need such a disclaimer. Idaloran - and the way to it - is perfectly safe. Where someone goes after they visit Idaloran has nothing to do with me.