KarenRei Report post Posted December 5, 2006 (edited) To elaborate on the problems of figuring out minimum A/D, consider these datapoints: Name: A/D/HP/DefExp Fox: 12/16/25/6 Imp: 12/12/24/5 Wood Sprite: 10/30/20/5 Deer: 19/19/45/5 In most cases, the defense exp is proportional to the attack, as is demonstrated by the low EXP for wood sprites and deer -- but here we have fox and imp both with 12 attack, yet fox gives 6 exp and imp gives 5. I'm quite confident that the DefExp formula is 3 + Something, so we get: Something(Fox,12/16/25) = 3 Something(Imp,12/12/24) = 2 Something(Wood Sprite,10/30/20) = 2 Something(Deer,19/19/45) = 2 Now, an interesting thing to note: foxes have very high PC; they're comparable to deer in difficulty, but deer way outclass their stats (60% more attack, 20% more defense, 80% more HP). Foxes may even be a bit tougher than deer. This means that foxes have a high P/C. Thus, this makes me wonder: could the minimums reflect P/C? If they do, it's not by very much, but it's a possibility. Another possibility is that minimums reflect overall level. Hmm! I actually like this latter hypothesis. A fox having a slightly higher overall level than a deer, but lower A/D, must have very high P/C. Right? Edited December 5, 2006 by KarenRei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gohan Report post Posted December 5, 2006 Thus, this makes me wonder: could the minimums reflect P/C? I highly doubt this, as you can see, nor you nor my formulas have anything to do with p/c. Only with a/d and rationality. So I don't see why you'd suddenly involve the p/c into the minimums. You should PM me ingame sometimes, I could check some minimums and maximums with you, I'm 102/101 a/d. So quite many creatures give me their minimal experience. (I do have the attack god, tho. (Reset.)) -Blee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RallosZek Report post Posted December 5, 2006 (edited) (I do have the attack god, tho. (Reset.)) Oooh, another godless caves I wonder how many there are left in oa top 100 - maybe should run a poll for it Deer: 19/19/45/5 Deer with equal a/d? I doubt that's correct, I'll see if I have an alt left that can verify. Well, seems it is equal,but not 19 for sure: Att level: 19 Def Level: 15 Rationality: 8 God: no Att exp: 7 Def exp: 11 That gives me 12/12 for deer, which seems way more reasonable and supports my gut feeling that min def exp is x + floor(att level creature / 10) where x = 4 I'll edit this post during the day, pending what I run into a/d/rat => 82/85/22 Fem gob: 14/9 Male gob: 14/10 oops, armed one Skeleton: 14/8 Large Spider: 14/8 Green Snake: 14/7 Boar: 14/6 Brown Snake: 14/7 Male gob unarmed: 14/6 Edited December 6, 2006 by RallosZek Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KarenRei Report post Posted December 5, 2006 (edited) BleedingSoul: Your formulas don't have anything to do with it because your spreadsheet doesn't consider minimums. My formulas don't have anything to do with P/C because I'm currently defining a minimum defense exp for each creature. Certainly, that's a reasonable approach for a spreadsheet. However, I doubt that minimum is hard-coded in the game for each creature -- rather, I would bet that it's derived from data that we can't see. The minimums seem to correspond pretty nicely with how tough creatures are, so I'm betting it's something like 3 + overall level divided by something. 102/101? Wow, I'm sure lots *do* give you minimums! You should have minimum attack on things as big as polar bears, and perhaps even min defense on them. You'll at least get min defense on things like phantom warriors. That would be great! Hmm, I just had an idea on how to test my hypothesis on where minimum defense exp comes from: PK battle! If we can get a number of datapoints on PK combat in which one person is getting the minimum, we should be able to figure out where the minimum defense exp comes from. If it's the same no matter who you're fighting, it is defined per-creature. If it varies depending on how high level the person is, it's related to overall level. If it varies depending on p/c, it's related to that. RallosZek: Updated. Thanks! Edited December 5, 2006 by KarenRei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KarenRei Report post Posted December 6, 2006 Updated again: Brought in lots of extra info from el-cel, including where creatures are found and what it takes to summon them. Thanks, cel! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KarenRei Report post Posted December 7, 2006 Re: Deer I used BleedingSoul's original numbers for them (see the start of the thread). This must have been incorrect. I've updated based on RallosZek's 12/12 numbers. They make a lot more sense. Just as a reminder, the spreadsheets are at: http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/el/el_ad.ods http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/el/el_ad.xls Re: Minimums 1) Can we get more minimums on monsters? We need an awful lot of them. High level players, I'm looking at you... 2) Is there any way we can organize to get minimums on *players*? Consider this a "science experiment". We need volunteer high-level people and volunteer low level people. The low level people must be willing to risk their life to last a few rounds in a PK area fighting a high level person. The high level person must do minimal damage and pay careful attention to the defense experience they're getting. Once the data is in, both should try to terminate the battle. If we can get this data, we should be able to determine whether minimum defense experience is: * Constant for a given species (human, elf, dwarf, etc) * Relative to the target's overall level * Relative to the target's physique or coordination * Other Once we know the formula, we can apply it to creatures: knowing a creature's minimum defense exp, we'll be able to get the variable that it is derived from, be that overall level, physique, coordination, or whatnot -- things that we have no other way of learning. Can we get any volunteers? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnTheWarder Report post Posted December 23, 2006 Wow Karen that is so crazy it just might work. But you would only be able to find cross-attributes and not attributes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TirunCollimdus Report post Posted December 28, 2006 Right you are. We should be able to determine the might and toughness of critters in the game and then from there we should actually be able to extrapolate something close to their actual attributes though. What we need to do is have players of the same attack levels with different mights hit the same test subjects. The amount of damage they do will determine the creatures toughness. Then you reverse it and have players of different toughness get hit by the same creature and thereby determine their might you wind up knowing the might and toughness of a creature. Coord would be to hard to figure out but between might and toughness we should be able to corrolate at least the phys of each said creature as might is the shared characteristic between the two cross attributes . The observable effects of the monsters' coordinations being either high or low should make it easy to guestimate the creatures phys and there by its will as well and coordination to some degree. There are players who are currently using coord, will, vitality characters to do massive leveling on each creature as you get higher and higher levels. This is a slower climb up the creature ladder but you get more experience for everything even at the top. These people should have a 4 physique so that they could be your testers on the PVP high to low level thing for minimums. The more hits it takes to kill something the more experience you get both attack and defense as long as you don't go up the food chain too fast. Not being able to kill higher level creatures with low phys is laughable because if you were desperate you could get a bone of death and more importantly we get new and better weapons all of the time and if you hit every single time and you have massive amounts of ethereal points to restore with you get more magic experience too so you still get massively more experience per creature. Most RICH fighters are using this method because they don't want to top out to fast like we here so many others complaining about. Did not want to highjack the thread with a leveling lesson but I wanted to avoid having anyone start an argument about it to begin with just because it was mentioned. The point being there are fighters in their 40s and higher who can be used for your study and I am sure most would be very interested in helping. I am on a harvest reset so I cannot help much. I pound bears in the dirt with my defense at 57. I can provide info on them and tigers to if anyone needs it just let me know. I have a 52 attack as well but I have not seen the information gathered so I don't know if I can help other than with ideas and information. Thanks to everyone for all of the hard work and time invested. Let me know if there is anything I can do. TirunCollimdus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larrystorch Report post Posted December 28, 2006 I think I might have an ignore level for Hobgoblins and I don't think it's based on one's Defense level. When I reached Attack level 61, they started to ignore me. Hopefully someone who's is nearing att 61 can confirm this. I wouldn't take this one observation as fact. Hopefully someone else will be able to confirm this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bkc56 Report post Posted December 28, 2006 I wouldn't take this one observation as fact. Hopefully someone else will be able to confirm this. I can confirm that it's not JUST a/d that is considered. I was still being attacked by hobs, increased my will a bit, and they stopped auto-attacking. So the decision is based on more than a simple defense level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gohan Report post Posted December 28, 2006 Some monsters stop attacking once a certain defense level is reached, like Goblins ignore you at level 21 defense. Others, like fluffies for example. I used to have 40/60 p/c. They quit attacking me at 92/92 or 93/93 a/d. Where they stopped attacking Lorck for example around 98/98 or something. Can't recall the exact numbers he told me. Now I'm reset at 102/102 a/d. They attack me again, so all I can tell is, the ignore level depends not on defense, but on your combat level I believe. Once Fluffies stop attacking me again, I'll use the combat level calculator and check what mine is and tell you guys. -Blee P.S. Since I haven't been putting work in this anymore for a while now. Who wants to know the Sslessars a/d? The Sslessars a/d is... is... is..... I'm waiting 'till I know anyone is interested in it at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zafyra Report post Posted December 28, 2006 The Sslessars a/d is... is... is..... I'm waiting 'till I know anyone is interested in it at all. I a- uh, no wait, never mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larrystorch Report post Posted December 28, 2006 Well here's my stats when the hobos started to ignore me. Att:61 Def:62 Phys: 20 Coord: 30 Will: 20 At Attack 60 they still auto attacked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterpiter Report post Posted December 28, 2006 Some monsters stop autoattacking when u reach certain def lvl( like gobs, gargs, orcs, chims), some when u reach certain combat lvl( ogre, cyclops, fluffy). I cannot be sure about trolls, some new mosnters, and yeti's/giants, cous they newer atted me before reset and i didnt checked on them after ;p. Minimal exp doesnt change with p/c cous i got same minimal exp when i was 80/76 and 4/4 from ogre, dont remember exact numbers but it was something like 5/8 or 8/5 eMPi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ttlanhil Report post Posted December 28, 2006 AFAIK troll is def 61... thanks to my high p/c, ogres stopped attacking me about 5 levels before trolls Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smalul Report post Posted December 28, 2006 Regarding the Combat Level - based on this site: http://el.asgardsrealm.net/elcombatlevel.php the combat level equation is: CL = Reaction + Toughness + Dexterity + (.75 * Attack) + (.75 * Defense) + (.5 * Matter) Now, those cross-attributes are based on basic attributes: Reaction = (Coordination + Instinct)/2 Toughness = (Physique + Vitality)/2 Dexterity = (Coordination + Reasoning)/2 Matter = (Physique + Will)/2 If this equation is right, it means the combat level is based on the Physique, Coordination, Will, Vitality, Instinct and Reasoning attributes, but mostly on Coordination (20%) and Physique (15%). Maybe we should make an ignore table based on the combat level for the high level creatures (I think trolls are the last high level monsters which ignore based on defense level, which is 61). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vytukas Report post Posted December 28, 2006 (edited) Add feros 105/90 300hp ignore lvl unknown Edit: and I've heard chims ignore according to defense as well, FC/DC 121def, MC 131 def, but you need to ask some1 pro like masterpiter to confirm Edited December 28, 2006 by vytukas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gohan Report post Posted December 29, 2006 I figured the feros too, altho I got confused when I suddenly start thinking of: did i yes or no, have the attack god on the test server yet? But 105/90 looked better then 105/98 so I went with the 105/90. -Blee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterpiter Report post Posted December 29, 2006 (edited) Add feros 105/90 300hp ignore lvl unknown Edit: and I've heard chims ignore according to defense as well, FC/DC 121def, MC 131 def, but you need to ask some1 pro like masterpiter to confirm Yup, Vyutkas is right, great thing about 131def is free mm perk without spending pp's. Afking in grubani/tirnym is pr0;p. Some players speculate that ignore lvl of arctic chim could be 151( since it is 130 a/d, so 20 more than old mc with ignore lvl of 131 def). We will have to wait like 2 years to see if its true or like some other players think, AC doesnt have ignore lvl cous its immune for mm capes About combat lvl, i can tell only from my experience: 1) every 2 coord gives u +1 2) every 2 phys gives u also +1 3) every att lvl gives +0,75 4) every def lvl gives +0,75 eMPi Edited December 29, 2006 by masterpiter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RallosZek Report post Posted December 29, 2006 About combat lvl, i can tell only from my experience: 1) every 2 coord gives u +1 2) every 2 phys gives u also +1 3) every att lvl gives +0,75 4) every def lvl gives +0,75 http://el.asgardsrealm.net/elcombatlevel.php Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gohan Report post Posted December 29, 2006 Here's cyclops. I was at 205 combat level, Cyclops attacked, I leveled attack, 205.75 combat level, cyclops stopped attacking. So lets say ignorance of cyclops is 205.5 combat level. -Blee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnTheWarder Report post Posted February 9, 2007 Any updates on the new creatures added to the game? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vytukas Report post Posted February 9, 2007 Feros ignore level is identical to fluff, according to my experience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterpiter Report post Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) About combat lvl, i can tell only from my experience: 1) every 2 coord gives u +1 2) every 2 phys gives u also +1 3) every att lvl gives +0,75 4) every def lvl gives +0,75 http://el.asgardsrealm.net/elcombatlevel.php I dunno where did u took that from, but that combat lvl calculator shows way higher numbers than iknow did. Just check it on my example: My stats were: att 126 def 137 phys 80 coord 92 will 20 vit 4 reas 4 inst 4 Which gives: matter 50 (p80+w20=100/2=50) though 42 (p80+v4=84/2=42) dexter 48 (c92+r4=96/2=48) react 48 (c92+i4=96/2=48) When u put these numbers in "ur" calculator they will give 360,25 CL and my true CL was 324,25 proof here :> Now, since i never saw the difference in combat lvl after increasing health( so adding will) lets delete that 50 matter from numbers. It shows 335,25 so still 11 more than it should. I checked various combinations how to "loose" those 11 combat lvls, but i failed. If some1 has the answer 4 that, plz post eMPi Edited February 10, 2007 by masterpiter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kabuya Report post Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) I dunno where did u took that from, but that combat lvl calculator shows way higher numbers than iknow did. Just check it on my example: My stats were: att 126 def 137 phys 80 coord 92 will 20 vit 4 reas 4 inst 4 Which gives: matter 50 (p80+w20=100/2=50) though 42 (p80+v4=84/2=42) dexter 48 (c92+r4=96/2=48) react 48 (c92+i4=96/2=48) When u put these numbers in "ur" calculator they will give 360,25 CL and my true CL was 324,25 proof here :> Now, since i never saw the difference in combat lvl after increasing health( so adding will) lets delete that 50 matter from numbers. It shows 335,25 so still 11 more than it should. I checked various combinations how to "loose" those 11 combat lvls, but i failed. If some1 has the answer 4 that, plz post eMPi I have hear iknow combat level = (a + d) x 0.75 + dexterity + reaction + toughness For you,its result is : Combat level = (126+137) x 0.75 + 48 + 48 + 42 = 333.25 ? No sure i hear good value... Edited February 10, 2007 by Kabuya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites