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New charging for bots clarification.

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re http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...&st=0

 

New conditions for bots:

 

from now on, ALL bots will cost a yearly fee of 20$, payable to radu's paypal account.

 

Blessed bots will stay at 100$ but from now on this only covers the first 2 years, after that time, they will cost 20$/year aswell.

 

Community service bots and certain AI experiments may be exempted from the fee, that will be decided on a case by case basis. It will not be enough to integrate another pvp-matchmaking service into your guild-storage-trade bot.

 

We will also change the approval system, but that will still need some time.

 

Is this change going to affect existing PAID bots? By this I mean $20 and $100 tradebots and $100 guardbots.

Where I can accept this change on new bots I would see it as highly unfair to the owners who have paid for bots with the former single payment system, particularly on $100 bots (doubly so on guardbots as they are only bought after having made a substantial donation for having a guildmap i.e. ~$200)

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re http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...&st=0

 

New conditions for bots:

 

from now on, ALL bots will cost a yearly fee of 20$, payable to radu's paypal account.

 

Blessed bots will stay at 100$ but from now on this only covers the first 2 years, after that time, they will cost 20$/year aswell.

 

Community service bots and certain AI experiments may be exempted from the fee, that will be decided on a case by case basis. It will not be enough to integrate another pvp-matchmaking service into your guild-storage-trade bot.

 

We will also change the approval system, but that will still need some time.

 

Is this change going to affect existing PAID bots? By this I mean $20 and $100 tradebots and $100 guardbots.

Where I can accept this change on new bots I would see it as highly unfair to the owners who have paid for bots with the former single payment system, particularly on $100 bots (doubly so on guardbots as they are only bought after having made a substantial donation for having a guildmap i.e. ~$200)

From a previous discussion with Entropy, all currently approved bots would be considered paid for one year already. So unless he says something else, the current approved & paid bots would have to pay a year from now.

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I am thoroughly disgusted with particular regard to guildmap guardbots.

 

$200 for a guild map, $100x2 for guardbots, all as one off payments, and than having additional fees introduced at a later date.

 

In the case of guardbots I just see this as a surprise tax. We can call it privacy tax.

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First, I actually agree that an annual licence fee to run a bot is a good thing. EL needs to make revenue to fund its existance, and this is a reasonable way to do it, while continuing to support a free play system.

 

However, these changes could land you in hot water; with regards to pre-existing bots it constitutes a breach of contract.

 

EL has sold people the right to operate bots for a one-time fee, and is now reneging on that aggreement by demanding additional payments.

 

It is within their rights to demand a refund of the previous fee, and there may be cause for additional compensation, since investment may have been made in hosting and running the bot (if the programming effort is costed, this would be astronomical).

 

Please tread carefully.

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From a previous discussion with Entropy, all currently approved bots would be considered paid for one year already. So unless he says something else, the current approved & paid bots would have to pay a year from now.

 

So say bye bye to EternalTrivia and Karlin then at 31.12.2006.

 

Especially for ET, im not willing to pay for the hours of work i spent, just to entertain ppl.

 

Then you can run your own bots.

 

Piper

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I'am a little bit confused. We payed for the bots as a one-time fee. This was like a contract. If this rule is changed now, i think we should have the decision about "yes - we want pay this yearly fee" or "no - we want our money back - since the old contract does not longer exists"

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From a previous discussion with Entropy, all currently approved bots would be considered paid for one year already. So unless he says something else, the current approved & paid bots would have to pay a year from now.

 

So say bye bye to EternalTrivia and Karlin then at 31.12.2006.

 

Especially for ET, im not willing to pay for the hours of work i spent, just to entertain ppl.

 

Then you can run your own bots.

 

Piper

I meant that Entropy had said it would be a good idea to consider the current bots paid up for a year from the date this was announced, so all current bots would be able to run for a full year without having to worry about anything. An I suggest you talk to Antropy to see if EternalTrivia can be included with the "Community Service Bot" category.

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So what community bots are exempt and what features would be considered to be a community bot.

Specifically for me will iknow be in the exempt as it's main function is community focused: checking stats pages, lists players online and provideing a bridge beween channels in el and irc

Edited by dns_server

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Sirs,

Guard Bots on guild maps do not make money for anyone or enter normal EL community interactions. They do not go into the market channel or announce over any open channels. They are not part of the EL economy and are simply what they are --guards.

I can understand the trade/buy/sell bots being taxed but I dont think it is reasonable to have bots taxed that are paid for, put on a private guild map, and do not generate revenue.

Therefore although they are not what would be considered "Full" community support bots, they are also not money generators or bots that interact with the normal routine EL community. So saying I think all fully blessed guard bots should be exempt.

The other bots that generate money for their owners, IE in my case Quartermaster, I dont have an issue with since he is making me EL coin and interacting with the EL community and commerce as a store in full view of all. In other words I put him out in the open for the general community to use.

That being said I will head off the dot-your-I-and-cross-your-t-nitpick-it-to-death-over-a-small-insignifigant-detail-posters by saying Yes they do fight intruders that do not take the warning. But the guild map intruders are unwelcomed and unsolisted visiters that the bots are there to keep away from our private map that 200.00 was spent and 200.00 more to KEEP PRIVATE. They are not there to welcome visiters and generate income for anyone therefore they do not make money to pay taxes from and are NOT a part of the flow of usual EL life.

V/R ~Sandcastle

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So what community bots are exempt and what features would be considered to be a community bot.

Specifically for me will iknow be in the exempt as it's main function is community focused: checking stats pages, lists players online and provideing a bridge beween channels in el and irc

 

That would be determined on a case-by-case basis. So state your case to Entropy.

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When I paid $200 for Charn, it was with the understanding that this one time charge covered him. When $100 was paid for Shari, that was under the same understanding.

 

When our guild worked to raise $200 for our map, we also knew that we would have to raise another $100 for a guard bot. All of these decisions to support EL were based on the idea that they were ONE TIME CHARGES. It is a breach of contract to change your mind after the fact and require more money.

 

I have a hosting account with a provider who at one time offered the account for LIFE at $100. Now they charge $100 yearly for all new accounts. However they can not legally take away my lifetime account and so they honor that agreement. I dont see this as any diferent.

 

Please reconsider the existing bots to be "grandfathered" in as is the normal legal presidence in such matters.

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Well, I understand your issues. If you think it is unfair, fine, all the already paid bots do not have to pay any additional fees.

However, we reserve the right to refuse service (ie. additional bots approvals) from those people/guild. A contract works both ways.

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Well, I understand your issues. If you think it is unfair, fine, all the already paid bots do not have to pay any additional fees.

However, we reserve the right to refuse service (ie. additional bots approvals) from those people/guild. A contract works both ways.

 

Good, thx all mods (and other bot-owners) who changed your mind Ent. But dont be offended, maybe I'll want some more bots, or other services (with new payment system indeed).

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I don't own a bot and thus have nothing vested here... but may we ask why the bot rules have changed? Does this have to do with offsetting costs of the new server? Strain on resources?

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Ok, now we are one extreme to the other. Life is not black or white and shades of grey exist as does compromise and understanding from both sides.

I feel my idea was valid. If a person has a trade/sell bot that makes money and interacts with the general EL public, IE all players of EL are welcomed and hopefully interact with it and the owners make money from the EL community off of the bots existance, then we pay a service charge. That is fair because the bots are actively bringing in revenue and posting on channels etc.

The guard bots do give a benefit by guarding, but would not be needed if the only people allowed on the guild maps were guild members or whitelisted friends. Since the game cannot distinguish between "the good guys and the bad guys" then the guards are needed. I honestly think one should come with the guild map, but that is another story. Anyway the bots do not interact with everyone, they do not generate revenue for the owner or guild, they do not give an ongoing benefit that causes a gain (I dont mean gain by making sure the private map is kept private) therefore they should only be a one time payment.

You all have got to be able to see my point, it is not bots or no bots or payments or no payments. It is income or no income. Just like real life. The ones that make money get charged.

I am not saying the other ones are not needed, they are. I hope you take my idea into consideration. I dont have a problem with paying for something that brings in revenue, and if this new rule is because bots are popping up all over EL and it slows down the bot population growth then I can see it. The bot owners that make money can always convert ingame items into RL cash via Learner. And if we have a whole year to make it into only 20 USD then it is not much of a hardship at all.

Now I probably have both sides yelling and calling me names, ah well :D

Frankly bottom line, the maps are paid and it would hurt if they poofed, it would take away the benefit they give. If the trade bots poofed then we still have all the gold and all the things they bought for us.

OOpss getting too long winded, stoping now, but I hope you all get the drift.

V/R ~Sandcastle

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1. The guild maps were never intended to be only for the benefit of the guild. I would never implement that, because:

a. Maps take space in the client download, which makes the client bigger.

b. Maps take considerable resources on the server.

 

2. We have over 60 bots in the game, which is about 15% of the game population during the day, and about 30% during the night. Those bots are also taking CPU resources, RAM, and bandwidth. Those resources are not free, nor are they infinite. That is, someone has to pay for them, and since we pay the bills, we would like to offset the cost somehow.

We pay about 1K USD/year for the serer traffic. Sure, the bots are not the only traffic consuming entities, but it would take about 50 paid bots to pay for one year of traffic. Keep in mind that many bots are not paid.

Therefore, a yearly fee is not unresonable.

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Guest Corvox

1. The guild maps were never intended to be only for the benefit of the guild. I would never implement that, because:

a. Maps take space in the client download, which makes the client bigger.

b. Maps take considerable resources on the server.

 

2. We have over 60 bots in the game, which is about 15% of the game population during the day, and about 30% during the night. Those bots are also taking CPU resources, RAM, and bandwidth. Those resources are not free, nor are they infinite. That is, someone has to pay for them, and since we pay the bills, we would like to offset the cost somehow.

We pay about 1K USD/year for the serer traffic. Sure, the bots are not the only traffic consuming entities, but it would take about 50 paid bots to pay for one year of traffic. Keep in mind that many bots are not paid.

Therefore, a yearly fee is not unresonable.

 

 

Im sure the bot owners understand this, but if you did offer them a one time fee you must honor it,maybe it should of been thought about more before giving them a lifetime of services for a one time fee.

 

Im also sure these are the people who would be the 1st to donate when you may need it the most,there are other things you can also add into the game to create funds.

 

What about an Image displayed near names of players in a clan that shows a clan crest, or maybe a feature where clans can have crest on cloaks/shields and such. or maybe custom weaponarmor icons only donators can have.(yes these cost money to create as well I know)

 

There are small things im sure your team could think of to add to the game that only donators can recive and wouldnt give them a unfair advatage.and if your team cant think of any I could thing of a few 100 that all wouldnt disrupt the game play or community.

 

I Understand the need for funds when running a server,and also understand the stress it can cause you and your team.but with out the community and the support of it, what are you really left with?

 

maybe try offering them 2-3 years off services for the bots that are running now,and then allowing this course to take action.

 

but o deny they services may cause them to leave, some of these names been here for a long time,I know I been gone for a year, but I still see many old faces here,they stay here for a reason, not becuse the game is free bt becuse they are attached to the game and the people involed.

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Im sure the bot owners understand this, but if you did offer them a one time fee you must honor it,maybe it should of been thought about more before giving them a lifetime of services for a one time fee.

 

Im also sure these are the people who would be the 1st to donate when you may need it the most,there are other things you can also add into the game to create funds.

 

 

That's exactly what I think. Me and Thunder spent 700 USD so far in this game (not bad for one year?)

And I was very angry yesterday about changing conditions without notifing the botowners.

I love this game :D , playing it every day and will donate further (that's not a problem).

 

sue

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The conditions didn't change just because we are greedy MoFos, and are trying to find new ways to grab your money, not unlike the federal government, state government and local government.

 

However, as the game evolves, some things need to be changed. Some of those things are the rules, including the rules for the bots.

Do you guys protest each time the government rises the taxes?

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Do you guys protest each time the government rises the taxes?

No, because government has never stated that one-time payment would be enough. Taxes have been paid once in month/whatever since the beginning.

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Well, I have to say, that in light of looking at it from the standpoint of bandwidth and server maintenance I can see the need to make money to cover that. Im sure the EL store helps, but I also agree with SandCastle. I own 2 store bots, and I can totally afford $40 per year. So why not leave Guard bots as a one time investment, and from now on change the pricing for store bots as you have intended.

 

While I still feel it would be wrong to charge people who have paid under the old agreement, It would not be wrong to ask them if they would be willing to come under the new agreement in order to help continue the growth and development of the game. This way, those who cant afford to pay yearly would not have to, but those who could afford it would have a chance to help support the game they love. I would gladly be the first to sign up. I love this game, and the bots are a huge part of why I love it.

 

It was just quite a shock to have it unveiled in that way.

 

One other question, since the $100 pays for the first 2 years, would a double blessed bot ($200) pay for maybe 3 or 4?

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While I still feel it would be wrong to charge people who have paid under the old agreement, It would not be wrong to ask them if they would be willing to come under the new agreement in order to help continue the growth and development of the game. This way, those who cant afford to pay yearly would not have to, but those who could afford it would have a chance to help support the game they love. I would gladly be the first to sign up. I love this game, and the bots are a huge part of why I love it.

 

It was just quite a shock to have it unveiled in that way.

 

One other question, since the $100 pays for the first 2 years, would a double blessed bot ($200) pay for maybe 3 or 4?

 

Ok, fine, the old guard bots can be free, they don't do that much bandwidth. My problem is with bots in [semi]crowded places. Not to say that the other bots don't take bandwidth.

And yes, the double blessed bots would be for 3 years.

 

I have a question though, when did I say before that those 20/100 USD taxes are for lifetime?

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I have a question though, when did I say before that those 20/100 USD taxes are for lifetime?

 

Apparently that must have been said once, I asked it here ages ago: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...st&p=259963 and someone answered 'lifetime' so there must have been said something. Although when paying there was never a messageline that said you will have to pay it annually so that means you pay for once and forever.

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